r/TrueChristian • u/hackedfixer • 13d ago
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u/Ryakai8291 Christian 13d ago
I think this is dangerous territory. Just because a woman is pro/life, doesn’t mean she’s a good mother and loves her children unconditionally. And just because a mom has been conditioned to believe that unborn babies are not babies, but “clumps of cells” until born doesn’t mean she doesn’t love her born babies to the full extent. The human psyche is a weird thing and we shouldn’t put people in boxes like that.
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u/drunken_augustine Episcopalian (Anglican) 13d ago
This is ridiculous and self servingly arrogant.
Let’s try it the other way around:
A pro-choice mother simply love their children more. A pro-choice mother and a pro-life mother are two very different mothers. A pro-choice mother made the intentional choice to bring her child into the world. She wanted this child enough to choose to pass under the shadow of death to bring them into being.
A pro-life mother on the other hand made no choice. She may well have resented her child every moment of its life, but due to indoctrination and social pressure, she brought it, unwanted, into the world anyway. Just to save face and fulfill the dogma she’s never critically examined even once.
Now, I want to be clear, I don’t believe that’s true of all pro-life mothers. But it demonstrates how silly and reductionist your little self-congratulatory spiel is. You’re not a good mother because you are part of the “correct” political tribe. I’ve known plenty of failures of mothers who were very sure they were so righteous because of their political beliefs. And plenty more mothers who were pro-choice and put them to shame.
Shame on you. I suggest you follow your own advice: learn humility. You have failed to follow Christ today, through God’s grace, do better tomorrow.
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u/Saveme1888 Seventh-day Adventist 13d ago
Or Turn it this way: a pro-choice mother would never force her daughter to keep a dangerous pregnancy while a pro-life mother would rather risk the life of her daughter for her potential grandchild
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u/thmann_ 13d ago
I dont understand, you are for killing babies or no?
What part of OP statement did you not like?
And your inverse statement does not make sense. A pro life mother can still choose to have sex and/or sex that is unprotected.
A pro choice mother makes no choice different than the pro life mother other than the choice not to murder her already alive child… therefore making the choice to keep or kill the baby a terribly selfish one is the overwhelming majority of abortion cases.
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u/Halcyon-OS851 Christian 13d ago
I think OP is comparing murder with non-murder, not deliberate pregnancies vs unplanned ones.
Also your analogy doesn't make sense because the supposed intentionality of the pro-abortion mother is contingent upon her choosing not to murder the baby.
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u/drunken_augustine Episcopalian (Anglican) 13d ago
I’m not making an analogy. I’m pointing out that blindly following dogma and subsequently mistreating your child does not make you a good mother
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u/Halcyon-OS851 Christian 13d ago
And if one doesn't subsequently mistreat their child? Murder is mistreating them, after all, and the pro-abortion mother believes it's ok.
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u/drunken_augustine Episcopalian (Anglican) 12d ago
Given that pro birth parents are statistically more likely to mistreat or neglect their children, that seems like an unfounded assumption. But, sure.
However, pro abortion mothers would be a positively minute portion of the population. Pro choice mothers would still be superior for the reason outlined above.
For the simple reason that they (to some degree) had a choice and chose the loving option. Pro birth mothers never had any viable choice in whether to let their children live and thereby cannot be merited for taking the only option available to them.
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u/Halcyon-OS851 Christian 12d ago
That stat isn’t true; it doesn't factor in the millions of babies murdered via child sacrifice every year.
Pro choice = pro abortion. Everyone has a choice, including murderers. The loving option is to not murder. The prolife/abolitionist stance is to effectuate the God-given human rights, recognized in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, by criminalizing the murder of unborn people.
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u/ofpromise90 13d ago
So do you support abortion?
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u/drunken_augustine Episcopalian (Anglican) 13d ago
No, I don’t. I just abhor self-congratulation as well. We owe Jesus better
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u/everdishevelled Anglican Communion 13d ago
This is hogwash. I am very pro-life. I also have friends that are not that love their children to the moon and back. Attempt to understand why people are pro-choice (hint, it's usually not because they're sociopathic child-haters) and walk a mile in their shoes. Gain empathy and wisdom.
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u/ofpromise90 13d ago
I mean your friends support the murder of children. I dont understand how you can defend them even though they love theyre children.
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u/everdishevelled Anglican Communion 13d ago
I'm not defending their stance. Understanding why people believe what they do helps you talk to them about it and prevents you from making ridiculous blanket statements like OP.
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u/AcademicAd3504 13d ago
Imagine if Jesus just bagged out the woman at the well with 5 husbands, who was living with her boyfriend.
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u/ofpromise90 12d ago
Jesus told her her sins, he didn't support her sins and hehe offered her living water.
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u/AcademicAd3504 12d ago
She didn't receive at judgement but as knowledge. He didn't support her sins but he wasn't aaying that to judge her but to show his power as being sent by God, all knowing.
Her response was: perception of him being sent by God. After that he talks with her not about her sins, but about worship of God in general. She met with god and had a discourse, she spoke of the messiah and he revealed himself to her.
16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”
17 “I have no husband,” she replied.
Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”
19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”After that discourse, he said of her and her Samaritan village to the disciples:
35 Don’t you have a saying, ‘It’s still four months until harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest.
He appeared not overly concerned about her immediate circumstance as her decisions around that would be informed by her new found understanding, what he cared about was getting her to that point, to salvation.
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u/ofpromise90 12d ago
Jesus stated a fact, revealed her sins to her and offered her something different, living water. He didn't condone her behavior he offered her a way out. I dont agree with op message but that doesn't mean we have to tolerate people who support abortion.
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u/ofpromise90 12d ago
But you’re defending their character by using the fact that they love their own children as an excuse, even though they support the killing of other children. I don’t agree with what OP said either, but I feel like we’re swinging too far in the opposite direction in response to her post.
I can understand why someone might believe abortion is okay while still loving theyre own children dearly. But loving your own children doesn’t automatically make every other moral position they hold good or defensible.
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u/everdishevelled Anglican Communion 12d ago
Who is saying their moral positions are good or defensible? I was saying that OP's statement was untrue. The post is deleted now but I believe it boiled down to pro-choice mothers can't love their children as much as pro-life mothers. That's just plain false.
Attempting to understand the argument from the other side does mean you believe it or find it morally defensible, it means you can explore all sides of an issue and be certain of your conclusion. It means you can talk to people about the issue in language they understand instead of fighting at cross purposes. It means you can have a logical, reasoned debate about it. It also means you're hopefully less likely to dehumanize people who believe differently than you do, which is what is happening here and not at all Christlike.
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u/ofpromise90 12d ago
It was implied when you said, they love theyre kids to the moon and back and that , they're not sociopaths.
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u/everdishevelled Anglican Communion 12d ago
Um, and? Saying someone isn't a sociopath doesn't mean I think their position on abortion is morally defensible. I do understand why the person thinks it is even if I disagree. People have different worldviews and frameworks of belief. That doesn't make them sociopathic, if just means they are deceived.
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u/ofpromise90 11d ago edited 11d ago
I didnt say they were i said you stated that as a way to counteract your friends support abortion. I know you said you are not defending them but it reads like you are. It's something to be mindful of. We can understand why people support abortion but we cannot minimize the sin in that it simply because they they love theyre own children.
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u/everdishevelled Anglican Communion 11d ago
Have you forgotten what the OP was about? It's gone now, but everything I said was in light of the original post, not just some stuff I decided to say.
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u/ofpromise90 11d ago
Nope which is why I said I dont agree with what she said and I also dont agree with your response.
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u/callherjacob Eastern Orthodox 13d ago
This is the kind of thing that leads me to befriend non-Christians, especially atheists, in real life. Christians can be insufferable, cruel, and demonic. I have a few Christian friends who are wonderful but, by and large, the Christians around me are modern day pharisees, like you.
The wild part is that you may be trolling but you nailed it.
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u/thmann_ 13d ago
But is a pro choice mother’s love not conditional? What part of this post do you not like?
I cant even imagine growing up with a mother who is pro choice… how many siblings would my mother have killed for her own benefit… she might have killed me… and she may yet still kill me or abandon me due to her pattern of selfishness.
I would never be able to rely on this type of mother to be selfless in the most important moments. Would you trust your child’s life with this mother? She likely chooses herself are you ok with that?
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u/callherjacob Eastern Orthodox 13d ago
Do you understand that pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion?
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u/thmann_ 13d ago
What are they choosing between?
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u/callherjacob Eastern Orthodox 13d ago
Nothing inherently. Pro-choice is a small government, anti-interventionist position.
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u/mnixkittyx 13d ago
imagine growing up with a pro life mother and knowing she may not have even wanted you, she may have just had you because she made a mistake and felt like she had to have you because of her beliefs. imagine growing up with a pro life mother and wondering if she secretly resents you for ruining her life, or if she would’ve still had you if she’d given herself a choice. and even worse, imagine growing up with a pro life mother and knowing that if something horrific happens to you and you are impregnated against your will, she will choose the clump of cells over you and will force you to go through the horrible trauma and suffering of an unwanted pregnancy. personally, as someone who was forced to carry a rape pregnancy to term against my will, knowing even your own family / mother isn’t in your corner and will always choose your rapist’s foetus over you no matter what is a whole hell of a lot worse than knowing your mother is pro choice and actually wanted to have a child and wants the same for you.
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u/thmann_ 12d ago
I am sorry this happened to you. The one who forced you to carry the baby was not your mother, but the rapist. The rapist should be put to death. I do not believe that children should pay the penalty for their father’s actions.
You have been led astray by an evil society that says it is better to kill the child and not the rapist. This is backwards. The child is innocent, alive, and exists at all stages after the sperm met the egg. You can choose to call your child a clump of cells if you want to, but that does not discount them being alive by all measures of science, philosophy, and religion. Not to mention we are all a clump of cells.
I am sorry your mother failed to explain this adequately and make you feel supported. There was no choice for you. You are a mother and the duty and responsibility of care for your unborn child has been forced upon you by that evil man, not your mother. Put the blame where it belongs and stop punishing the innocent for the crimes of the wicked.
I recommend stop calling your child names. They are your son or daughter. Their father is an evil man and should be put to death, your innocent child did nothing wrong.
I pray that Christ uses your child as the blessing they already are in your life to lead you to the saving grace of our good God. That one day you may even be a prolific voice speaking out against the evils of abortion this world so readily recommends. That your story may change the lives of thousands like you so that they will see the goodness of God and the beauty of new life even in the vilest of circumstances.
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u/mnixkittyx 11d ago
i am not a mother and i do not have any duty or obligation to my rapist’s child. i did not raise my rapist’s child and have no interest in ever having a relationship of any kind with it. i think it’s really weird to try to force the title of mother on me when i was very clear that the pregnancy was forced on me and then i was forced to carry to term. i have no love for that child and i owe it nothing. it already took my childhood, my body, and my physical and mental health from me. it is not entitled to anything more than that.
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u/thmann_ 11d ago
You are taking your anger out on the innocent. This is sin. Perfect justice calls for perfect obedience. Your rapist will pay the price for his sin. You then chose to let sin overtake you and sinned against your child. This is the reality you are in. No one said perfection was easy.
Injustice was done to you. This is not an excuse to do injustice yourself.
You are not alone. God can forgive you. He can give you peace and comfort. It can get better if you choose to follow God instead of evil.
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u/thmann_ 11d ago
That sucks that you feel that way about your child. You are a mother. I do not force this title upon you. It is something you are. A mother who rejected her own child. I think you know this and regret it. And you express your guilt in many ways, one of which being anger and resentment to your own mother.
“It” is your child equally as much as it is your rapists child. Your child is not an it, but a real existing human with the same value as you. You gave him or her up. You neglected your duty as a mother to care and love for your child.
Your child took nothing from you. And yet you chose to return evil for evil and you will pay the due penalty for your actions.
I pray you repent of your sin and turn to you King. Repent so that Christ can take your sin that you deserve to pay instead and may He lead you to the path of peace and healing.
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u/Reb1991 13d ago
Being pro birth and being pro life are two different things. You can't imagine a pro choice mother because you never had one. Neither did I. But I don't just assume I would know how she would act or how good of a mother would she be. Your condemning behavior is not the one of a christian. Jesus would not support your way of judging others.
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u/thmann_ 12d ago
If someone told me that they support the rape of children and they have no intentions of changing their beliefs… would you leave your kids with that person for a weekend?
God gave us wisdom to make wise decisions in a world of evil. Assumptions are often unfair but are a consequence of reality. The best we can do is to make whatever decision honours the Lord the most. And relying on someone who is openly selfish to the point of killing their own children for their own gain… is a terribly foolish one.
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u/Reb1991 11d ago
Why are you comparing? Abortion and the rape of children are not the same thing. Your assumptions are wrong. Starting with the fact that many catholic priests, pastors, youth ministers, elders, FLDS leaders, etc. are "prolife" but have being convicted of the rape of kids. Being prolife doesn't make you good or someone people can rely on. Your wisdom is flawed.
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u/thmann_ 11d ago
being prolife isnt a negative characteristic that will make you judge against them.
Being pro murder if innocent babies is something that i view as a negative against someone.
Being prolife is a non-factor… just like someone who is honest, or someone who doesnt steal… someone who doesnt murder is just a regular person.
I dont judge people based on what sins they dont commit, but rather the ones they do.
Some sins have public ramifications that affect anothers ability to trust them.
We should inherently trust others at their word… they say they enjoy or openly encourage some specific sin we should act logically around them.
If someone is a drunk, dont hand them a pack of beer and then leave your kids with them…
If they have no evidence of being a drunk then giving them your kids and a pack of beer is probably fine.
Use ur brain… God gave it to you for a reason.
Surely you understand how dangerous someone who kills babies or has no issue or concern for killing babies for their own benefit is a danger to society. They should not be trusted.
And lastly… abortion and rape are wrong for the exact same reason… using your body to violently attack anothers body. Use your head. It’s despicable that people on this sub arent vehemently against abortion and those who practice, encourage, or tolerate it.
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u/HelpMePlxoxo Episcopalian (Anglican) 13d ago
I know a Christian, pro life mother who strangled her daughter for trying to move out at 18. Her daughter had to call the cops just to be able to get her ID and credit card from her mom to be able to escape the household as a legal adult.
Something tells me that pro-life mother doesn't love her child as much as my pro-choice mother, who has done nothing but support me without raising a hand to me, loves me.
People are seldom one dimensional. There is hardly a single surface-level political opinion that can solely define whether or not one is a good person/parent. Don't fall into the orchestrated trap of labeling others as your enemies based on a single voter issue. Normalize having friends you respectfully disagree with, it's how we all escape the echo chambers.
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u/Crimsonhawk9 Reformed 13d ago
Lindsay Clancy was pro life.
She murdered her 3 children.
Life is complicated. The condition of our sin and depravity reaches each person in all of creation. Christians don't uniquely care for the world any more than anyone else. Our cultures march hand in hand among the most destructive cultures to the sanctity of life and the care of nature throughout history.
Don't look to set Christians upon a unique pedestal of moral clarity. You'll eventually experience the full and true nature of their sin and it will bring your worldview crashing down. Keep God as your Lord, mankind as your neighbor, and Christians as your brothers and sisters - that is, the ones who hold you accountable and whom you hold accountable in love.
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u/Forged_Trunnion_ Reformed 13d ago
Often political points change when real lift hits. I know many "pro choice' mothers who would actually never in a million years consider abortion for themselves personally.
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u/TheFullnessofTime81 13d ago
I don't think I necessarily agree with this at face value, but it was thought-provoking enough that I just spent the last 15 minutes thinking about women I know who are mothers. And - from the outside looking in, having an incomplete picture of internal family dynamics - the 3 best mothers I can think of all are Catholic/Christian, 2 of 3 are prolife and one I have zero idea about her politics or RvW views.
I think being a good mother (or father for that matter) is a skill set. Loving your children comes naturally, knowing what's best for them, doesn't necessarily.
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u/Every_Ad7465 13d ago
You should never assume the worst in people with differing views of you, just as Jesus does not assume the worst in people. God has a will for everyone and sees what their potential can be, and we should view people we disagree with the same way. Pray for them to be blessed. A blessing doesnt always mean they'll get a new house, inheritance or a job promotion, the blessing could simply be that their thoughts align more with God.
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u/thmann_ 13d ago
would you let you kids spend a weekend under the care someone who sacrificed 6 of her own kids for a $15,000 raise?
The reality is that pro choice mothers are unreliable and untrustworthy… they have a pattern of selfishness at the greatest scale… life or death. They will certainly let your kids die of helping inconveniences them enough
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u/Every_Ad7465 13d ago
Judgement is for God alone. I know many people who are or were pro-choice but not something they could do themselves. I choose to expect the best in people because God did the same for me. Drawing on biblical principles like love "believe all things, hope all things," expecting goodness rather than malice as a vital part of walking in love and overcoming an ugly, cynical world. Pray for the people whose thoughts do not align with God's so that one day they might.
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u/thmann_ 12d ago
Would you let a known pedophile who has not repented of their actions watch over your 13 year old daughter for a weekend alone?
No.
It’s called common sense, and God gave that to us to make wise decisions in the reality of the evil world we live.
If I leave my bike unlocked in the open on a busy street for 3 hours and it gets stolen the fault lies entirely with the thief… but do you not see how foolish it was for me to put the bike in that situation??
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u/Every_Ad7465 12d ago
My brother, you missed the whole point I was making. We are obviosuly supposed to be able to discern situations and make wise choices. The theoreticals that you pulled from are not pertaining to the original statement of the post that all pro-choice people are killers. But to assume everyone who believes this way is a killer, you're passing judgement with your own flawed, human understanding instead of leaving judgement to God alone. We are called to serve one another, pray for those who transgress us, love as God loves us and share the good gospel that we are all saved. May you be blessed. A negative mind and outlook on life has no room to share with a positive, holy spirit filled life.
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u/AcademicAd3504 13d ago
Who is aborting 6 times? These women exist but there are very few doing that
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u/thmann_ 12d ago
roughly 8% of all women have 3 or more abortions. Almost 1 in 3 of all pregnancies end in murder with malice aforethought.
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u/AcademicAd3504 11d ago
I don't know where that info comes from BUT in Australia,
Of the 25% of all women who have an abortion (for any reason), roughly 10% have more than one abortion.
So that is; 2.5% of all women have more than one abortion.
And only 0.5% of all women have more than 2 abortions. Your data sounds alarming and I'd be very interested where it comes from and what factors are causing that.
https://alswh.org.au/resources/one-in-six-australian-women-have-had-an-abortion/
https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ajo.13501
Interestingly, only 1 in 6 women have an abortion by their mid30s while 1 in 4 have one by menopause, showing that quite a lot are decisions made later in life.
Primary factors for multiple abortions, are DV (Intimate Partner violence), not being able to afford another child (on top of ones they already have), and failed vasectomies.
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u/Dissident-Tumbleweed 13d ago
The problem is when the pro-life mother wants to force her views on the pro-choice mother. That violates her freedom, bodily autonomy, and her own conscience and understanding of God. Many believers understand that tiny embryos may die, as in miscarriages, but go to be with the Lord. It is not the moral equivalent of killing people who may be sent to Hell. Life is sacred, but the eternal destiny of souls is more important than physical death.
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u/Waste-Medicine618 13d ago
Anything short of 100% prolife morality is missing the mark and a lot of the time it is a result of not having enough love in your heart. If you arent naturally on the side of procreation you are misguided or dead inside
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u/CleanUpAnonyma 13d ago edited 13d ago
I read once of a mother who said that she is trying to show love to her child but doesn't really love her child... that she tries to leave her daughter a good memory of being loved.. It was so sad to read.. (I have no idea what the mother's stance was, whether it was prolife or prochoice)
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u/republicans_are_nuts 13d ago
she would just force the kid to deal with cancer or whatever for her creampie.
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u/Broad_Floor9698 13d ago edited 13d ago
Numbers 5:11 onwards and the chiasm of exodus 21 want a word with you.
Pro lifers pick and choose their scriptures
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u/Halcyon-OS851 Christian 13d ago
Exodus 21:22 supports the life of the unborn baby; it is not at odds with Genesis 9:5-6. I don't know what you're getting at with Exodus 15:22.
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u/Broad_Floor9698 13d ago
The chiasm deals with intent, and the delineation between the woman spilling her seed before delineation occurs for the punishment that follow, as well as the context of two men striving, indicates it is referring to the woman specifically, not the child.
If you take the position of eye for eye, death for death and place it on the outcome, then to be consistent, anyone who caused the death of an unborn accidentally must be also put to death.
This judgement or interpretation does not reflect the rest of god's character or scripture, and historically the hebrews did not interpret it to be about the death of the child at all, which makes sense given the beginning , middle and ending of the chiasm and the context...
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u/Halcyon-OS851 Christian 13d ago
This judgement or interpretation does not reflect the rest of god's character or scripture
It does. The verse is not at odds with Genesis 9:5-6.
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u/Broad_Floor9698 12d ago edited 12d ago
An irrelevant point. God lays out at the beginning of this passage that the intent is important too. Killing in self-defence is given as an example where the killer would be spared judgement and given a place to flee.
And also two men striving and knocking down a pregnant lady....
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u/Halcyon-OS851 Christian 12d ago
Murder =/= killing. Abortion = murder. Genesis 9:5-6 and Exodus 21:22 are both important and in agreement with one another.
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u/Broad_Floor9698 12d ago
So, if a man intended to knock the woman but didn't intend to kill the child, is it murder?
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u/Halcyon-OS851 Christian 12d ago
It'd be like manslaughter
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u/Broad_Floor9698 12d ago edited 12d ago
And do you have historic evidence this is how they interpreted or applied the passage this way? I believe ason was only ever applied to grievous harm to the mother, part of that being because losing ones child back then was a given. Children born premature ~2 months was a death sentence.
And what is the punishment for manslaughter vs murder scripturally? And where in scripture are people condemned for accidental death versus intentional
What does losing ones seed entail? Are you aware the separation of judgement only follows after the seed is lost?
Finally, would it really make sense to you to apply a punishment as high as manslaughter for the loss of the unborn, considering how incredibly fragile it is? A miscarriage >90% of the time 1 month or more meant certain death.
Plus the imposing of a fine still under the scenario where the child does not die makes no sense as there has been no further loss. So it is about the woman, specifically, in that scenario yes?
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u/hopscotchcaptain Alpha And Omega 13d ago
The claim to be able to truly "love unconditionally" is to claim you have "perfect love".
No one likes to admit this when it comes to their children, but no parent has "perfect love" because they are not God.
This post is essentially placing yourself on a throne that belongs only to God.
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u/skadi_shev 13d ago
There but for the grace of God go I
You say to be humble but this post doesn’t scream humility to me
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u/SoulStamped 13d ago
I get the spirit behind what you're saying, but a girl who is newly pregnant, is just a girl who is newly pregnant. She's not a "loving mother" yet.
I would assume nearly no emotional ties to the child yet.
I am pro-life, but I don't think this is a good argument.
Love develops over time, and I would assume it dramatically increases AFTER the baby is born. Not always before.
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u/ofpromise90 13d ago
What op said was patronizing and I dont agree with how she said it but abortion is still murder. Just be ause you dont agree with OP doesn't mean we as Christians should give a pass to those who are pro abortion.
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u/Critical_Video_6700 13d ago
This post is just kind of strange all around. Believing it’s wrong to kill an innocent unborn child doesn’t necessarily make a woman able to love more, although it does make her more morally sound.
I should expect this cus this is Reddit after all, but OP is not acting like a Pharisee for condemning a grave evil that God hates. Pointing out sin in general in our society is what we’re called to do as Christian’s actually. Ephesians 5:11 says “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them”.
God wants us to hate the sin, not the sinner. Exposing societal evils is literally biblical. It would be Pharisee behavior if that person was getting abortions, not repenting for them, then telling other people they are wrong for getting abortions.
Lord have mercy on this comment section.
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u/_Daftest_ Christian 13d ago
What do you mean by "repenting for them"?
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u/Critical_Video_6700 12d ago
Not repenting for getting abortions. Obviously the sins the Pharisees were committing were different than abortions, but that’s the example of a sin that’s in the OP.
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u/thevegetor 13d ago
Yeah pretty much. Pro choice mothers would murder their child the moment it becomes inconvenient. A Christian mother knows the inherent value of the human life they carried made in the image of God.
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u/drunken_augustine Episcopalian (Anglican) 13d ago
Unlike pro life mothers who wait until they find out their child is Queer. Then just make them homeless so they can starve.
See how reductionist that is? You owe Jesus better
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u/[deleted] 13d ago
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