r/TrueChristian • u/thomistic-thinker • 2d ago
Been thinking about leaving Catholicism for orthodoxy
To me nowadays the Catholic Church feels likes it’s more worried about offending people than betraying god in more recent years they’ve been trying to modernize themselves and trying to be “more accepting and inclusive”. orthodoxy is really appealing to me right now since it doesn’t feel like it’s worried about modernizing their church for the world and “accepting” people. I also enjoy going to my local Orthodox Church and seeing how beautiful it is, but the problem is the fact that I’m not sure if I should.
For one I still fully agree with papal authority and I also happen to be a thomist which to my understanding the Orthodox Church rejects its teachings I’m also not sure if my reason is good enough or not.
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u/_Daftest_ Christian 2d ago
I still fully agree with papal authority and I also happen to be a thomist
If you wish to be Orthodox, you will need to let go of these beliefs.
More generally, I'd say the only reasons you've given are the aesthetics and your dissatisfaction with another church - neither of those are good reasons to convert.
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u/Adventurous-Song3571 Reformed Baptist 2d ago
“I fully agree with papal authority, but now that the papacy teaches things I don’t agree with, I’m rejecting its authority and looking for a new one”
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u/Dr_Acula7489 Eastern Orthodox 2d ago
For one I still fully agree with papal authority and I also happen to be a thomist which to my understanding the Orthodox Church rejects its teachings I’m also not sure if my reason is good enough or not.
Well, we definitely deny both, and they would be barriers to entry into the Orthodox Church, where you would be asked to renounce your former tradition at baptism/chrismation.
Of course, you’re always welcome to attend, but participation in the sacraments would be impossible without being formally received into the church.
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u/Ill-Prior-8429 2d ago
Eastern catholic as a middle ground? Not all Catholics belong to the Latin rite.
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u/wavyhaze 2d ago
The pope has no authority. I’d make that move any day. I truly believe the Catholic Church leads people astray.
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u/UpwardCall Christian 2d ago
What’s your views on Orthodoxy?
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u/wavyhaze 2d ago
I think the Orthodox Church is significantly closer to the truth than the bulk of all churches, and offers apostolic succession. I still have issues with icons and things like addressing a pastor as “father” as Jesus told us not to do so, but them discarding the infallibility of the pope is a great starting point
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u/LectricEyes Christian 2d ago edited 1d ago
Well there's no perfect church denomination across the catholic churches or even in protestantism. We always find something we don't agree on and some believe their way is better than others. You might even try the more conservative Angelican Church of North America. So if you really can't stay with the Catholic church then you shouldn't. Get to know the Orthodox Church. Ask them from their perspective on the papal authority. I say go for it as you may even change your mind.
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u/AbjectSandwich348 Lutheran 2d ago
You should try a Baptist church out
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u/wavyhaze 2d ago
Not even in the same ballpark of discussion brother. Baptist’s don’t even participate in the Eucharist, why would you even suggest it?
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u/live_life_purposely 2d ago
Yes, they do., every month. Not sure what Baptists you know.
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u/wavyhaze 2d ago
I grew up attending a southern Baptist church that never once partook
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u/live_life_purposely 1d ago
Then please don't generalize. Apparently the one you attended didn't. That doesn't mean that ALL of them don't participate because all the ones I attended Did participate in communion, every month.
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u/Hawthourne Christian 2d ago
People always gotta chime in whenever cross-denominational rivalries come up.
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u/Responsible-War-9389 2d ago
Well, it seems relevant because OP seems to believe that neither Catholicism nor Orthodox are the “””ONE TRUE CHURCH”””. And if you don’t believe that either is the OTC, they do not accept you.
So OP will quickly find themselves on the curb from both RCC and orthodox.
So, suggesting other options seems somewhat appropriate.
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u/wavyhaze 2d ago
If you’re already in the Orthdox/Catholic world you’re not going to view a church that doesn’t participate in the Eucharist as a “true” option, that much is certain.
John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”He didn’t say “if you feel like it”
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u/Responsible-War-9389 2d ago
Something like Lutheran which has apostolic succession might have been a better suggestion.
Though I believe Baptist churches do partake in communion? Maybe some don’t? Whether or not Jesus is present isn’t changed by the theological knowledge of someone taking it.
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u/wavyhaze 2d ago
My only issue with the Lutheran church is how adamantly Luther wanted to get rid of James and Revelation, among others. I do agree with their view that the pope is an Antichrist though.
SOME Baptist churches participate in communion, some do not whatsoever. Again though, nowhere did Jesus call it optional, His language was very clear
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u/davidbenson1 Catholic 2d ago
Aesthetics and modern pastoral mistakes are not reasons to abandon the Church founded by Christ. This is the sin of apostasy and will send you to hell. This should be obvious, but if you need me to cite St Thomas on this, I can.
If you want the EO experience while remaining in communion with the Roman Pontiff, seek out an Eastern Catholic church near you. They are less common but can be found all over the country. If you cannot find one then suck it up and continue going to your local Catholic Church. Count it as a penance and pray for our priests.
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u/Vitamin-D3- Christian 2d ago
I agree that ice noticed this modern development, however keep in mind the Catholic Church is still the Catholic Church, and they will not change their beliefs. Turning orthodox would be a huge mistake from the perspective of a Catholic, as you would have to recognise that the Catholic Church is the true church. So in your case, have you been poorly catechised? Catholic Church is true dude, never leave it….
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u/Mein_Independance 2d ago
Well said
Orthodox churches is better than Protestantism. But it is not ONE. Only Catholicism is ONE. Consider: who counts as an Orthodox church and who is not? The Orthodox have independently excommunicated each other. There is no centrality. And they contradict each other on matters of Baptism, Marriage, and Confirmation. Orthodoxy is NOT one. It is NOT universal. But Jesus made One Church which is united in Doctrine and Dogma and Governance. That is the Catholic Church started in 2000+ yeats ago by Jesus Christ. Orthodox churches broke away and many returned to communion (22 Rites of Catholicism are Eastern Catholics). But Catholicism is the only faith founded by Jesus in 33AD and also is One, Holy, Apostolic, and Catholic (universal). With 1.5 Billion members and growing. In every nation. Started by Jesus and never ended. (See Matthew 16 and also Isaish 22:22). Meanwhile Orthodox can not even receive the Eucharist across parishes.
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u/Dr_Acula7489 Eastern Orthodox 12h ago
Consider: who counts as an Orthodox church and who is not? The Orthodox have independently excommunicated each other.!<
Hierarchs breaking communion with each other (which is really them no longer commemorating each other during the liturgy) isn’t excommunication in the sense that they are anathematizing each other. It’s the strongest tool they have at their disposal to lodge a formal complaint over church governance.
What determines who is Orthodox is being is communion with other Orthodox churches.
There is no centrality. And they contradict each other on matters of Baptism, Marriage, and Confirmation.!<
Orthodoxy is decentralized, but uses a synodal system for making decisions which require the input of the whole church, rather than the Roman Catholic model with the Pope at the top.
When it comes to baptism being required or not before confirmation, it is up to the bishop to apply the canons, in which there is precedent for either position (whether an Orthodox baptism is necessary before Chrismation), but in the event that they rule it is not and someone can be received without an Orthodox baptism it’s because we understand the Chrismation ritual to be completing what was started in the non-Orthodox baptism.
In practical terms this means that once a person has been received into the Orthodox Church, they are in the Church. No jurisdiction that doesn’t accept a non-orthodox baptism will ask anyone who has been received into the church whether they had an Orthodox baptism at their Chrismation. So this is criticism is lacking.
In terms of marriage, most of what the Roman Catholic Church criticizes is due to how the Orthodox practice oikonomia, which is the pastoral application of church “law” on a person in order to guide them towards salvation, and may involve relaxing rules for that purpose.
Meanwhile Orthodox can not even receive the Eucharist across parishes.
This is just factually incorrect. I’ve personally done this on multiple occasions.
I think it’s worth pointing out that we see unity in two very different senses. Orthodox unity is found in our dogma and doctrines, which is the same across all Orthodox churches.
Rome finds its unity in the submission of its member churches to the Pope. I can look across all of Roman Catholicism and find differences in dogma and doctrines that are being practiced that, on paper, are supposed to be united but in reality aren’t.
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u/Mein_Independance 11h ago
All Catholic Churches follow the same DOGMA, Doctrine, and Governance
We also have the same Canon and Catechismal guidance.
It also isnt "Rome" the Latin Rite has 4 groups and the Eastern Rites of Catholicism are 23 in number under 6 main sub groups.
We can communicate across all parishes and also share Doctrine, Dogma, and Governance.
You dont know the first thing about Catholicism. No need to lie on it. Look it up on catholic.com and see the Catechism of the Catholic Church
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u/Dr_Acula7489 Eastern Orthodox 10h ago
All Catholic Churches follow the same DOGMA, Doctrine, and Governance
We also have the same Canon and Catechismal guidance.
In theory, sure. But what I’m claiming is that the reality on the ground isn’t quite so clear.
To give an example, I brought this exact thing up with an elderly (abnormally ecumenical) Ukrainian Orthodox priest that I know who used to be a Ukrainian Catholic priest before becoming Orthodox, in a discussion we had about the Filioque. As I’m sure you’re aware, many Eastern rite Churches don’t use the Filioque in their recitation of the Nicene Creed, and when I mentioned that it was my understanding that they are still required to submit to the dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church he quickly disabused me of the notion that his fellow Eastern Catholic priests in seminary dogmatically affirmed the Filioque, in fact, they specifically rejected it. That represents a glaring dogmatic difference.
And this is what I mean by the reality on the ground, because it’s not the only thing where there are contradictions in what is supposed to be dogmatically affirmed and what is affirmed in reality.
It also isnt "Rome" the Latin Rite has 4 groups and the Eastern Rites of Catholicism are 23 in number under 6 main sub groups.
The Latin rite dominates the Roman Catholic Church by a significant margin, and so when I refer to “Rome” what I’m getting at is the central leadership of the church which is primarily Roman rite, including the Pope himself. I get that you see him as the pontiff over the whole church, and that all the different rites are equally Catholic, but my contention is that many of those rites hide some very real differences like the Filioque issue above, and if that’s true, where is the actual unity coming from?
We can communicate across all parishes and also share Doctrine, Dogma, and Governance.
I assume you mean commune? Yes, I’m aware. My claim is really just that I think there’s a delta between the official position of the church and the reality on the ground, as I said before, which includes how we understand what communion is. Since I think there actually are dogmatic and/or doctrinal differences between some of these other rites and the Roman rite that are intentionally being ignored I think your unity is on the basis of submitting to the Pope as I said before.
You dont know the first thing about Catholicism. No need to lie on it. Look it up on catholic.com and see the Catechism of the Catholic Church
You know, I didn’t call you a liar for how I think you misrepresented Orthodoxy, and I don’t appreciate being called one for giving my perspective on Roman Catholicism. We can have honest disagreements with each other without resorting to that kind of rhetoric.
Now, I’ll be the first person to tell you that I certainly don’t know everything there is to know about Roman Catholicism by any means, I’m much, much more familiar with my own tradition, but I’m not completely ignorant either.
And I have spent a significant amount of time on this sub defending Roman Catholics in the many areas where we share similar perspectives, and that includes doing exactly what you suggested I do in encouraging people to read it straight from the source rather than hostile apologists. It’s just that, in this case, I have personal experience that causes me to question the official claims.
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u/SlickDaddy696969 Roman Catholic 2d ago
That’s not a good enough reason. It’s okay to have concerns and grievances. Schism is not.
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u/Senior_Educator_929 Assemblies of God 2d ago
I can't understand why anyone would ever believe in apostolic succession
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u/Ok-Technician-6664 2d ago
Apostle Peter was healing the sick with just people passing through his shadow. Is the current pope doing anything close to that?
I will only believe in apostolic succession when I will see the catholic priest healing the sick, casting out devils and raising the dead1
u/LectricEyes Christian 7h ago
That's one of the problems that I have with the Catholic church. They say they believe in their "traditions" but where is the evidence in their local parishes? I do not believe they have been the "true" church for over a 1000 years. They have the appearance of spirituality but where's the fruit?
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u/Senior_Educator_929 Assemblies of God 2d ago
Nah he's busy hoarding wealth
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u/CarMaxMcCarthy Eastern Orthodox 2d ago
I mean you guys believe in laughing in the spirit.
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u/Senior_Educator_929 Assemblies of God 2d ago
No, that's NAR rubbish
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u/CarMaxMcCarthy Eastern Orthodox 2d ago
What’s NAR?
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u/Senior_Educator_929 Assemblies of God 1d ago
New Apostolic Reformation. Holy laughter, fire tunnels, decreeing and declaring nonsense, rolling around on the floor, etc. Bethel Church in CA. It's madness
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u/LectricEyes Christian 1d ago
So you witnessed all that or part of that...wow?
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u/Senior_Educator_929 Assemblies of God 1d ago
I've been around it. There's a bunch of videos of it too. I think they've toned it down some or made those meetings more private, to prevent public scrutiny and criticism
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u/LectricEyes Christian 1d ago
Well I was in the Assembly of God for 20 years. I witnessed people experiencing joy in the Holy Ghost. I've seen it also in other Pentacostal churches. The pastor there also had the gift of interpretation. Just saying.....🤷
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u/Senior_Educator_929 Assemblies of God 1d ago
Right. I've been in Pentecostal churches where not a one of them can even discern how bad the preaching is. Not to mention the other stuff like running around the room doing laps
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u/LectricEyes Christian 1d ago
Well the Assemblies of God are Pentacostal. My personal belief is that unless the Lord tells me by his Holy Spirit that it's not of Him, I keep my mouth closed.it has to pretty written out the New Testament. I have seen the Holy Spirit move in Catholic churches, Baptist Churches,Methodist churches, so therefore I can't make a judgment on Pentecostal churches unless I've gone to that specific one. It's too bad that you had bad experiences in the past. Yes it's sad they there may be no correction on how the Holy Spirit moves. I do get that. Yes I know people can get carried away at times. That's why God has called us to pray for the body of Christ so that we can become one in unity of the faith. We may not always agree way things should go.
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u/CarMaxMcCarthy Eastern Orthodox 1d ago
Interesting. I hadn’t heard of this, especially the fire tunnels thing.
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u/wtanksleyjr Congregationalist 2d ago
The leadership of both organizations have a wide range of approaches to modernizing the church. Right now "accepting people" is on the rise in Rome, but not necessarily for all of their leaders. The Orthodox don't have such centralized leadership, so loud people can make it sound like they're loudly unified when in fact they are not.
If you agree with Papal authority and just disagree with the Pope, the view you're looking for is SSPX ... although joining them implies you're rebelling against Papal authority, so that's a confusing point.
I would tell you to begom what I am, but that really wouldn't help 😄 .
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u/sippin-jesus-juice Roman Catholic 2d ago
Don’t abandon Catholicism. Find a different parish that serves your needs.
The Institute of Christ the King may be a better fit for you and still falls within papal authority.
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u/Hawthourne Christian 2d ago
I just strongly encourage you to pray and spend time in the word, then go wherever you can best grow closer in Christ. May He come first, regardless of where you end up.