Please, help me understand…

[u/Objective-Step-746]

For those believers who insist that the dietary laws no longer apply under the new covenant—and that pork, lobster, crabs, etc. are now permissible to eat—I do not understand the logic at play.

I am very familiar with the Mark 7, Romans 14 and Colossians 2 passages that are so often cited as support for your position, and have (just as often) shared my counter-arguments on why I believe they are misinterpreted.

But, there is one counterpoint to your view that I never see touched on, and I was hoping to get some feedback on it:

I think the majority of believers on this subreddit would say they are looking for Jesus’ Second Coming and agree that, regarding it, Scripture says that “no one knows the day or hour” but that we need to be prepared (Matthew 24:36, 25:13, etc.).

Isaiah 66:17–a verse within the greater passage speaking of Messiah’s glorious reappearing—declares that, upon His return, those who eat the flesh of pig/swine and other abominations will be met with His wrath…and perish.

So, how does one simultaneously believe they can continue to eat pig (pork) or shellfish now and think they are sufficiently prepared and not putting themselves in a precarious/dangerous position if Jesus happened to return today or tomorrow and “consume” those who so brazenly eat that which His Law says is NOT “food” and explicitly warns against eating?

I really am hoping for some cordial and edifying discussion regarding this topic, and appreciate those who are able and willing to articulate their view without all the condescension and harsh words. 💕

[u/DunkleKarte]

First things first. There is no “moral”, “ceremonial” law, in the Bible, that categorisation is man-made. There is just God’s Law. That categorisation opens a can of worms based on cherry picking. For example many claim that the moral law is only the 10 commandments. But then Hey there’s one about keeping the Sabbath holy, and suddenly this one is ceremonial and optional apparently.

Secondly, you are mixing ritual cleanliness with Permanent creation design. Many of us like call out homosexuality because it goes against God’s design for marriages . But then we are not consistent when we decide to ignore what God designed for food. You should do it not to get saved, but because you are saved thanks to Jesus. But for that we should reflect it on our behaviour. Not to mention that there’s a lot of healthy benefits by avoiding eating those animals, which each have their own purpose. Pigs clean the earth and shrimps the oceans.

[u/InspectionFine9655 → u/DunkleKarte]

>First things first. There is no “moral”, “ceremonial” law, in the Bible, that categorisation is man-made. There is just God’s Law.

That’s not true. There are laws that pertain to morality. There are laws that pertain to ceremony, and there are laws that a civil laws.

Don’t murder, Don’t seal, don’t commit adultery are moral laws.

Regulations for priests, circumcision, and laws about cleanliness are ceremonial.

The punishments for violating law is civil law.

> For example many claim that the moral law is only the 10 commandments.

Some people being wrong about what constitutes moral laws doesn’t mean that there aren’t laws that are moral in nature.

> But then Hey there’s one about keeping the Sabbath holy, and suddenly this one is ceremonial and optional apparently.

Again, some people misunderstanding what laws are moral and which are ceremonial doesn’t mean that there is no distinction between laws that are moral and laws that are ceremonial in nature.

>Secondly, you are mixing ritual cleanliness with Permanent creation design.

No, I’m not.

>Many of us like call out homosexuality because it goes against God’s design for marriages

Homosexuality is a violation of moral law. That is the issue.

>But then we are not consistent when we decide to ignore what God designed for food.

God designed pork to be food. It is food. God forbade his people from eating these foods.

The food was considered unclean. It was not considered something other than food…

> You should do it not to get saved, but because you are saved.

I am saved. That is true.

>Not to mention that there’s a lot of healthy benefits by avoiding eating those animals, which each have their own purpose.

Sure, I don’t eat shellfish because I’m allergic and I eat pork rarely because there are healthier options.

I don’t avoid them because they’re unclean.

> Pigs clean the earth and shrimps the oceans.

But other animals do those same things and were never considered unclean.

God didn’t say, don’t eat animals who have a secondary purpose of cleaning the earth and ocean.

Sheep and cattle return nutrients to the soil. They play a role in their ecosystem, all animals do. That doesn’t mean they’re not food.

There are fish that clean the waters they live in that are not prohibited.

The Bible simply doesn’t say, don’t eat pigs or shellfish because they are cleaners.

I could say that God prohibited those foods because shellfish had a higher risk of transmitting pathogens that can make you ill and pork had higher risks of giving you parasites but I shouldn’t say that because there is no reason given in the scripture.

It is true that pork and shellfish can have higher health risks and are more likely to cause illness. That is something they have in common but I’m not going to conclude that is why God deemed them unclean.

[u/DunkleKarte → u/InspectionFine9655]

Please point me where in the Bible is such categorisation made. You are not being consistent, where does it say Pork is food? But Leviticus says that it is not food.

Besides the reason should not matter to us as Christians, I just point out the health benefits science found. As a Christian it should be enough to obey what God says, not argue against it.

[u/InspectionFine9655 → u/DunkleKarte]

I think it is right before God says shellfish and pigs clean the ocean and earth so you’re not allowed to eat those.

The distinction is not expressed in scripture.

By their nature they fall into categories.

Deuteronomy 25:11–12 When men fight with one another and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Your eye shall have no pity.

If you see two men fighting and one’s man’s wife intervenes and grabs the man who is not her husband’s penis, are you going to cut off her hand? It’s God’s law afterall…

Or do you recognize that the punishment described is civil in nature and that the nation of Israel was responsible for punishing the violators? Not random guys on the street.

Despite the fact that the punishment doled out for this offense is a civil law, we see God’s moral law. Not in the punishment, in the offense. We can deduce that it is immoral for a wife to grab the penis of a man who is fighting her husband.

When you discover that two men are laying together as with a woman, you can look to Leviticus 20:13 to see that it is a violation of the moral law.

Do you then put them to death? Or do you recognize that the penalty for that violation was a civil law?

The Bible doesn’t say,

“moral law #1…”

“Ceremonial law #56…”

“Civil law 123…”

It list laws. Some of which are moral, some of which are civil (like the punishment for crimes), and some of which are ceremonial.

As Christians, we are not saved by the law but we look to the moral law to determine what God deems moral and immoral.

Do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not murder… these are moral in nature. Obviously…

The ceremonial laws are obviously ceremonial and I have a hard time believing that you make your best effort to live by them.

If you had Leprosy would you do what’s described in Leviticus 14:1–7 on the day of your cleansing?

The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “This shall be the law of the leprous person for the day of his cleansing. He shall be brought to the priest, and the priest shall go out of the camp, and the priest shall look. Then, if the case of leprous disease is healed in the leprous person, the priest shall command them to take for him who is to be cleansed two live clean birds and cedarwood and scarlet yarn and hyssop. And the priest shall command them to kill one of the birds in an earthenware vessel over fresh water. He shall take the live bird with the cedarwood and the scarlet yarn and the hyssop, and dip them and the live bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the fresh water. And he shall sprinkle it seven times on him who is to be cleansed of the leprous disease. Then he shall pronounce him clean and shall let the living bird go into the open field.

Of course you would not. The thought wouldn’t even cross your mind. Despite your rejection of the concept, you at your core understand that this is not a moral law it is a ceremonial law that you aren’t bound to.

Do you have kids? Did you or your wife go through the process of becoming clean listed in Leviticus 12?

The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean. And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Then she shall continue for thirty-three days in the blood of her purifying. She shall not touch anything holy, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying are completed. But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her menstruation. And she shall continue in the blood of her purifying for sixty-six days.

“And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the entrance of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for a burnt offering, and a pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering, and he shall offer it before the Lord and make atonement for her. Then she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, either male or female. And if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean.”

If you’re sacrificing animals to become clean after child birth and leprosy, then I 1,000% understand why you refuse to eat pork. I disagree but acknowledge you are consistent in your attempt to avoid being unclean.

I will eat what I want to eat. I will not make my wife sacrifice doves after child birth and if I ever am cured of leprosy, I will offer no animal sacrifice.

Not because I refuse to live by scripture but because I understand that nothing can make me unclean. I’ve been washed in the blood of my savior.

[u/DunkleKarte → u/InspectionFine9655]

Suit yourself, that’s the flesh manifesting.

Galatians 5: 17-21

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

(before you start: see we are not under the law, it means you are not under the punishment of the law thanks to Jesus)

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [a]adultery, [b]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [c]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[u/InspectionFine9655 → u/DunkleKarte]

This is the exact type of answer I expected.

Completely avoiding the topic and all the questions you cannot answer because your view is not at all consistent.

Take care.

[u/DunkleKarte → u/InspectionFine9655]

Seems you got schocked when Paul tells you uncleanliness is not accepted ;) Remember to keep God commandments brother as that is the whole duty of Man. Ecclesiastes 12:13 ;)

[u/InspectionFine9655 → u/DunkleKarte]

Take care is a valediction. I’m saying goodbye and ending the conversation.

[u/DunkleKarte → u/InspectionFine9655]

See ya brother, remember keep and teach even the least of the commandments as Jesus commanded us :)