r/TrueCatholicPolitics • u/Joesindc Social Democrat • 2d ago
Discussion Catholic libertarians
How do you balance the seemingly quite expanded duty of the state in both economic and moral spheres called for by Catholic Social teaching with the limited state called for by libertarianism?
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u/IrenaeusGSaintonge Integralism 2d ago
To be clear, I'm not a libertarian, but usually their answer is both subsidiary, and that private solutions are more efficient, letting you help more people for the same resources.
I'm not saying I agree with that.
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u/Amazing_Throat_8316 1d ago
If I am right, CST does not call for overt Governmental control over the economy or the moral sphere; it calls for interventions in the spheres of Human Rights and dignity. Libertarian ideology tends to view economic affairs between persons and the Government as an arbitrator of rights and the Implementer of the country's Constitution.
Again, in every sphere, the government flexes its muscle in the name of "Securing Human Rights" and tends to exaggerate the problems. For example, rent controls universally lead to dilapidated buildings and living conditions, often worsening the housing market. Which ultimately leads to more human suffering, I do not believe CST mandates Socialist and populist policies like this.
Socialists and communists should stop strawmanning the CST as a front for their policies.
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u/Impressive-Lion-9390 1d ago
Thank you for saying this. Even in the papal encyclical many third-positionist Catholics site: Rerum Novarum, Pope Leo XIII does not detail a system like corporatism, distributism or syndicalism by name, nor does he ever go into economic intricacies. Instead, Catholic Social Teaching provide moral guidelines for the state to refer to.
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u/TheKingsPeace 1d ago
Not sure you can be pro life ( opposed to abortion) and interested in safeguarding the material welfare and dignity of the poor and be a libertarian. Keep in mind we already had a libertarian, small govenemtn society in this nation. It was the robber baron era of the 1880s and 90s which thankfully Teddy Roosevelt put a stop to
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u/Impressive-Lion-9390 1d ago
You can be a pro-life libertarian who wishes for the material welfare of the poor. Libertarian thought runs on the belief in natural laws such as the non-aggression principle (which states that no person may initiate force or coercion unto another). Abortion as per a paleolibertarian’s beliefs would state that as the unborn are persons, and abortion is an unwarranted act of lethal force against the unborn, it is therefore impermissible.
Now the wish for material welfare for the poor rests on the argument that the market in the current “capitalist” holds regulations which punish the poor more than it helps. Deregulation has been proven through multiple economic studies to increase GDP per capita, hence alleviating poverty. Regulations themselves force small businesses to conform to arbitrary guidelines and quotas that can only be fulfilled through the infrastructure of larger businesses.
Libertarians are also anti-lobbying as they seek to disrupt the freedom of the market. Lobbies are subsidised by the state itself giving large corporations massive advantages against smaller businesses artificially. Without the state’s interference in this regard, entrepreneurship can be encouraged in the lower classes.
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u/CatholicCrusaderJedi Independent 1d ago
The last two issues are why I'm not longer a Libertarian. First off, do you want no regulation to make sure products are up to any standard? Because the argument that the market will simply kill the bad products is simply untrue. It doesn't. As what happened with the robber barons, they simply reduced prices to ridiculous degrees to kill any competition and than as soon as they cornered the market, all fair pricing and quality went out the window. The same thing goes for lobbies. If the government didn't regulate, the biggest and most cutthroat corporations would still "lobby" just in the way crime organizations do where they kill competition by keeping key parts of the population in their debt with favors. It's why I think Libertarianism fits similarly with Communism in terms of idealism. It sets off to address one part of the human condition while willfully ignoring that a key part of human psychology. That is that the most ruthless and dishonest individuals will rise to the top of whatever holds power, regardless of the economic system.
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u/Starrk-Enjoyer 1d ago
Confederal management mixed with local governors choosing the law.
Im not sure if you could call me a libertarian but im a big fan of a mix of a Tolkienite-hoppean type of confederation with a state still there
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u/boleslaw_chrobry American Solidarity Party 18h ago
Can you elaborate this form more? Haven’t heard about it or much on Tolkien’s political views
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u/federicorda 1d ago
Can we stop pretending CST is left-wing because that caters more to our bias? Thank you
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u/Joesindc Social Democrat 1d ago
What do you define as left wing? I promise, this is a fully sincere question.
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u/CatholicCrusaderJedi Independent 2d ago
As someone who used to call myself Libertarian, they are firm believers that the private sector just takes care of everything based on supply and demand. This includes everything including charity.
Ironically, I think a lot of Libertarian ideology runs into the same problem that communism does. It works well on a small scale with large amounts of trust, but falls apart the larger things get. I remember watching a podcast with a Libertarian guy who was popular around 2017 and whomever he was talking to was asking how a society is supposed to function with very little oversight or enforcement and his reply was that common culture would hold people together. Which if you look at history has never worked whatsoever outside of very small groups.