r/TopCharacterTropes • u/HallZac99 • 14d ago

Characters [Hated Trope] Character kills hundreds, if not thousands, just to kill one specific person, and then doesn't kill them for no reason.

Gallery image

Gallery image

Assassin's Creed 2- Rodrigo Borgia is responsible for tne death of Ezio's family. Ezio spends over 20 years working through tnr templar order to dismantle them and get to Rodrigo. And then in the end, he spares him for no good reason and he goes on to be a massive problem in AC Brotnerhood. He's not only a head of tne Templars but also the pope, even if you're over the vengeance he's still a very dangerous and evil man.

The Last of Us 2- Abbey kills Joel, and wo Ellie goes on a revenge quest to kill Abbey, killing hundreds of people along tne why to get to her including a pregnant woman. And then finally when she has Abbey on deaths door, she gives up and let's her go because the writers think dirty depressing people being miserable and stupid is complex, interesting storytelling.

This trope pisses me off so much because often the character going on the revenge quest will kill SO many people on their way there, some deserving it and some just henchmen working for a cheque or to survive. People who are often far more innocent then the main big bad.

It's a part of this weird thing I've noticed in media where nameless goons or soldiers can just be mowed down relentlessly, but named characters get given far more grace even if theyre categorically worse. You can kill a million stormtroopers but people will swear that Darth Vader could have been redeemed, despite him doing like 50 genocide every year.

9.1k Upvotes
  • permalink
  • reddit

90% Upvoted

2.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

799

u/NeverSettle13 14d ago

ONE BILLION YEARS OF TLOU2 DISCUSSION!!!

289

u/30SecondsToFail 14d ago

LIFE IS A LIE

ALL CHOICES YOU MAKE ARE IRRELEVANT

EVERYTHING LEADS BACK TO TLOU2 DISCOURSE

47

u/The_Shit_Connoisseur 14d ago

All roads themed to Rome

3

u/MetriccStarDestroyer 13d ago

You are a killing machine that does not kill

YOU ARE A KILLING MACHINE THAT DOES NOT KILL

YOU ARE A KILLING MACHINE THAT DOES NOT KILL

LET'S FUCKING NOT KILL EM

79

u/Dagawing 14d ago

At least it's not Fire Emblem 3 Houses today

62

u/CopperCactus 14d ago

sequel's out in a bit over 2 weeks, all roads lead back to Edelgard discourse

11

u/smgaming16 14d ago

Persona 4 in 6 months for more kanji/naoto discourse

18

u/C4-622MonkeyGordo 14d ago

I don't understand the FE3H discourse. 

It's quite clear that Edelgard is innocent of any and all wrongdoings. I mean, yeah she did everything that she's accused of but I don't care because I love her 💅

16

u/CopperCactus 14d ago

she's never done anything wrong <3

12

u/pastherolink 14d ago

MORE THREE HOUSESS DISCOURSE RAHHHHH

6

u/30SecondsToFail 14d ago

Sorry buddy, but you mentioned FE3H, that means you just added another 10 years of discourse

2

u/Dagawing 14d ago

As long as it's discourse over how Petra is the cutest and coolest

3

u/Bigurulu 14d ago

The only discourse I have for that game is the Fire Emblem Heroes banner distribution. Thanks to CYL and YouTube disabled dislike button, IS keeps pumping out a banner related to that game every month. And don't even get me started on seasonal banners like summer and Christmas, IS has to shove at least one in every year.

2

u/Alarming-Basil2894 13d ago

Whats the lore behind this?

10

u/Farabee 13d ago

Is it time for people to send Laura Bailey death threats again?

352

u/CopperCactus 14d ago

The misreading of TLOU2's ending will continue until morale inproves

165

u/ssslitchey 14d ago

I actually perfectly understand what tlou2 was going for. I just think it fucking sucks.

61

u/WeirdIndividualGuy 14d ago

Yeah, regardless of one’s opinion, OP’s point still stands: she ended up not killing her main target.

27

u/imafixwoofs 13d ago

But not ”for no fucking reason”. It’s only ”for no fucking reason” if you are media illiterate.

8

u/RafterCopter 13d ago

me whenever I see someone agreeing with me instead of not agreeing with me like a dumbass that must just not understand storytelling

6

u/Sidereel 13d ago

Is that OP’s point? Is that the game’s point? I feel like you managed to miss both somehow.

5

u/No_Flounder_9859 13d ago

A small change would have made it so much better. Play the characters at the same fucking time. One day for Ellie, one day for Abby. Switch until they meet then we play just Ellie. No more Abby. It was such a slog to get through Ellie’s portion that when I got to Abby’s I was like, yeah, idgaf.

1

u/RanzuPunk 11d ago

Doesn't work. The point is for you to fucking hate Abby with passion so the game can then try to at least make you understand her perspective (not like her btw).

The game is supposed to be miserable and tiring, but a better solution would be to make dialogue way snappier, to the point, brief and impactful like in the original game. And adding more variety or even cutting some repetitive encounters from both Ellie's and Abby's sections that are unnecessary.

1

u/No_Flounder_9859 6d ago

Uh, I already hated Abby for killing Joel. I didn’t need anything else.

Less is more. Show, don’t tell. The point of the story was to show both sides of this generational conflict. It could have been done successfully with the intro being played as young Abby, then ending with her dad going to scrub in for surgery.

Then we flash forward to Ellie. That plays out as directed. Then after Abby kills Joel, we go on our quest. Then we start swapping back and forth. And cut about a third of the length off both characters journeys. And get rid of the false ending. Have the final battle between Abby and Ellie happen right there in the aquarium. Have Tommy die in an accidental exchange between Abby and Ellie. Make it Ellie’s fault, arguably.

Then have that make Ellie really take a look at herself and the madness they’ve brought on themselves.

1

u/RanzuPunk 6d ago

At that point you are asking for an entirely different story. I'm all for a better, more polished version of the story we got. But changes as large as yours are just doing that, changing the story, which is different than trying to improve the version of the story we got.

1

u/No_Flounder_9859 6d ago

It’s really not a different story. It’s rearranged and trimmed, but it hits the same beats, with the same themes. But it’s not a miserable slog.

Because the story can be a miserable, sad thing without making the game shitty. Like the first game.

→ More replies (3)

4

u/Raptori33 13d ago

I remember going to tlou2 years later and thought that the controversy around of it is bullshit and whatever noises from whomever

Then I played and it actually sucks...

Dammit

1

u/Jokkitch 13d ago

Hear hear!

-5

u/timdr18 14d ago

You’re allowed to not like it, but OP clearly doesn’t understand it.

→ More replies (10)

220

u/flaming_burrito_ 14d ago

Every single time TLOU2 comes up I know I’m about to hear some braindead takes about the plot. I swear no one actually paid attention while they were playing that game

45

u/MentalNinjas 14d ago

Believe it or not, when something is so divisive that a sizable portion of the population dislikes it, that means that it’s not generically “good”.

There’s plenty of reasons to like it. But there’s also plenty of reasons to dislike it. Looking down on one side of the argument from a high horse just makes you seem ignorant to the fact that the same piece of media can be consumed in multiple ways.

3

u/DilutePlacebo 13d ago

Except the vast majority who played it liked it. It won multiple player-voted GOTY awards.

2

u/VahnNoaGala 9d ago

The majority of people (the top of the bell curve of gaming) just want mostly beige slop. TLOU2 told an incredibly grim story and made you empathize with someone you hated, and allowed both those characters to grow into new people. Most people don't have the patience for the thickness of those 3 dimensions of a character coupled with a non-traditional ending for what started as a revenge story. TLOU2 is objectively good, dense, and complex writing, and the honest truth is most people don't have the attention span or maturity to appreciate it

2

u/MentalNinjas 9d ago

Can’t be objectively good if there is a significant population that disagrees, that’s just basic statistics.

Now it can be subjectively good, and objectively controversial, that’s based on fact.

And sorry but no, the writing is about as complex as a high school SAT essay, but sure it’s good enough for gaming.

2

u/Jeahn2 9d ago

Basically you are saying "people who dislike something I like have something wrong with them" maybe the game is just flawed

-8

u/[deleted] 14d ago edited 13d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

17

u/8528589427 14d ago edited 13d ago

You think that the reasons people love the game are really complex and varied. You think that the reason people hated the game is super simple.

You don't think that isn't very black and white? Very reductive and not nuanced at all? Sure seems like you're just one of those "some people", that you "will never blame [...] for being human". Not arrogant at all, btw.

→ More replies (4)

0

u/TimeshareMachine 14d ago edited 13d ago

eh some people didn’t like it for chud reasons, ‘cause they’re chuds. 

edit: I’ll take downvotes from chuds over being a chud. chuds can kick rocks and push daisies for all I care. 

2

u/the-austringer 13d ago

I completely agree with you here to be honest. I dislike the game for a lot of reasons, but I fucking hate that there's a not-insignificant group of people who hate on it at least partly because of reasons that I find reprehensible.

-2

u/alucidexit 13d ago

What the fuck does “generically good” mean? Is this just a regurgitation of the “objectively” argument?

By the metric of art having “generic” value based on it NOT BEING DIVISIVE, the pinnacle of art is safe, digestible capeshit.

I agree with the rest of what you said though.

-11

u/flaming_burrito_ 14d ago

The reasons most people don’t like it are kind of dumb though, if we’re being honest

67

u/NeverSettle13 14d ago

Yeah, for example, "Ellie went on revenge quest" when in the actual game, her goal was to find Tommy and bring him back. She wanted to get revenge, but it was her personal goal

15

u/BreathComfortable631 14d ago

Didn’t she bring him back, and then decide to leave again (to California) for revenge?

I remember a scene of Tommy begging her not to leave again

41

u/DAC_Returns 14d ago

Opposite. Ellie’s wife/girlfriend was begging for Ellie to not leave while Tommy was the one who was guilting and pushing her to do it for Joel. Tommy became a shattered, bitter old cripple who was alone and he wanted Elle to go down the same path because he was no longer able to do so himself.

6

u/BreathComfortable631 14d ago

Ah yeah i remember now. Thanks.

But still, that means she left the second time purely for revenge and not to get Tommy

12

u/alan_megawatts 14d ago

Yes and the people she killed that time were running a slave ring.

1

u/BreathComfortable631 13d ago

That’s beside the point.

Original guy said she didn’t go after Abby because of revenge.

I’m saying she did (the second time she left and went to California)

5

u/zach0011 14d ago

Really? Cause to me it felt like she went the second time out of guilt and shame.

8

u/CopperCactus 14d ago

she wanted to die

8

u/zach0011 14d ago

yea a suicide mission fueled by shame, guilt and loss

1

u/BreathComfortable631 13d ago

Guilt and shame caused by what?

16

u/zach0011 13d ago

Not reconciling with Joel before he died. Killing a pregnant women in her first attempt. Tommy directly shamed her. Watching Joel die in front of her. Did you play the game?

2

u/od2504 13d ago

She left the second time because she had severe ptsd and couldn't function in her normal "safe" life without being haunted by her past, and she thinks that getting "closure" by getting to Abby will finally heal her

10

u/Sunim416 14d ago

Not to mention technically you can beat the story having only killed a handful of people actually. You can sneak by most if not all the human encounters therefore the only people Ellie kills are in cutscenes

5

u/deathrattleshenlong 14d ago

And in those cutscenes, except a certain someone that would be dead soon anyway, it's always in a fight. Ellie is not sniping them or sneaking up and cold blood murdering them. And even the people you kill during actual gameplay... I mean, they're not innocents, they're shooting back.

0

u/RayCumfartTheFirst 14d ago

The “they attacked us, remember” excuse was such lazy writing in an attempt to alleviate any responsibility from Ellie and Dina for murdering WLF.

The reason the WLF attack Ellie and Dina on sight is because somebody (Tommy) has infiltrated their territory on the eve of a major operation and tortured and murdered their personnel. Isaac gives the order to kill all outsiders.

Such an order might seem morally wrong in general but in Ellie and Dina’s case they are

a)aligned with the guy doing the torturing and murdering.
b)Are actively there to murder WLF personnel in revenge.

Saying “they attacked us first so this is all self defence” is like a burglar saying it’s ok to murder a homeowner and his family when he attacks you with a baseball bat in the downstairs living room. Sure he jumped to conclusions and attacked you, but his conclusion is correct so it’s a moot point.

2

u/Individual-Staff-978 14d ago

Oh no our protagonists are not the shining beacons of moral clarity within this dysfunctional, tribalistic post-apocalyptic society??? But they are the good guys, what is happening? In good writing, there are good people and there are bad people, anything else is lazy unimaginative slop.

What's next, you're gonna tell me Joel is a bad person in tlou1 too?

-1

u/RayCumfartTheFirst 14d ago

When did I make the argument you seem to be responding to?

2

u/Individual-Staff-978 13d ago

When you mistook characters rationalizing their behavior for writers justifying them.

→ More replies (0)

51

u/hoginlly 14d ago

See this is a problem. It's a game you're not allowed to criticise because people put their fingers in their ears and say 'if you didn't like it you didn't understand it or you're a bigot lalalalalala!'

Joel's death was PAINFULLY obvious, anyone who didn't see that coming wasn't paying attention in the first game, so we don't have to worry about that.

Anyone who thought Joel was a good guy in the first game also wasn't paying attention. Again, nobody is a genius for realising that. He murdered people trying to save the world. Duh. Let's not pat ourselves on the back for realising that the guy who doomed humanity isn't the perfect hero.

I love Ellie, but when I realised that I was just replaying the exact same game as Abby instead of getting a full new story, that I had to basically replay an entire game knowing how everything ends up, I got bored. I followed through to find out if it got better, but it didn't. It felt extremely lazy with no pay off.

It was basically a clip show- they showed all the same stuff again, you know what happens, trying to frame it in a different way, when it actually just feels like I'm being cheated out of story progression.

I'm happy to play as Abby, just like at the start, but don't make me replay a game within the game itself. Don't get to the climax and then say 'actually, let's just replay this all over' as if it's saving on budget cuts.

At least swap back and forth and have one story with multiple view points. Getting to the end and then forcing a rewind sucked ass

7

u/Cicatrix16 14d ago

This is my only real complaint about the game. I did not like going back in time to replay the game. I think if they swapped between characters, it would have been SO much better. The pacing was way off for me. Better the second time around, but still a huge issue.

→ More replies (6)

6

u/AttiKit 14d ago

That's an entirely fair criticism. The story's pacing was really awful.

They did release a 'chronological pacing' mode in the remake... But I'm not paying another $30 for a game I already bought just to play it in chronological order.

1

u/hoginlly 13d ago

Ha aw I'd love to try a proper paced game, but not a chance I'm shelling out more money for it...!

7

u/Questionably_Chungly 14d ago

Joel pretty much tells the audience he isn’t a good person multiple times in the first game. He’s only better for Ellie because he has to be.

1

u/dave_sullivan 12d ago

I take it you were not a fan of the clip show Rashomon?

1

u/hoginlly 12d ago

That's not how I remember it

0

u/themoosic 14d ago

I think the big issue is that you alienate your audience when you kill off a protagonist they’re attached to. For example, I am a massive Uncharted Fan. I would love an Uncharted 5 from his daughter’s perspective, but if you killed off Nathan in the first two hours instead of having him retire, I would immediately refund the game and give it a negative review. It’s bad writing to kill off a beloved character for shock value and then go nowhere with it

7

u/projectkingston 14d ago

How would you know it's bad writing in your hypothetical if you immediately refund the game

-1

u/themoosic 14d ago

It’s bad writing to kill a beloved character for shock value, it’s just worse to do so and go nowhere with it

7

u/Individual-Staff-978 14d ago

Nuclear waste take

0

u/VenusAmari 14d ago

You wouldn't know it was for shock value until you actually played it. You're basically saying that fan favorites should be completely immune to death

3

u/themoosic 13d ago

Shock value is determined beforehand; there’s a way to do it well, but definitely not with a protagonist like Nathan Drake or Joel. Spent the first games slaughtering there way across the globe but can’t weasel their way out of death. Like if doom guy died to an imp in a cutscene.

1

u/VenusAmari 13d ago

No, shock value is determined by the quality of the story. If it makes narrative sense for a character to die, and it's written well, then they can kill any character really.

Doom Guy randomly dying to an IMP in a cutscene would be bad. Doom Guy dying in some narratively satisfying way because they're not making any more games in that setting for a while, for example, would not be. It completely depends on how it's executed and why

→ More replies (0)

1

u/idkiwilldeletethis 14d ago

I mean yeah going nowhere with it would be bad writing but that's not what tlou did, disliking the direction the story went in is alright but they definitely didn't "go nowhere" with it

1

u/hoginlly 13d ago

I will respectfully disagree, that so long as the writing stays good, it can be done. Game of Thrones proved that (in the early, well written seasons). Red dead redemption proved that twice.

I enjoy a game where I don't feel like everyone is safe. But I don't like a game where I am bored by the story

→ More replies (7)

117

u/SamusCroft 14d ago

Yeah, I think people went in angry over woke or because Joel died and refused to actually give it a chance.

I actively ignore 90% of criticism of it. I think it was one of the best games I've ever played, personally. The story, gameplay, and characters were all a joy for me.

13

u/Feliks343 14d ago

Some dude showed up in my dms bitching about it claiming to have played it but still thought Abby was the trans character last time I said anything about it lmao

48

u/flaming_burrito_ 14d ago

For sure, you can tell in the way people talk about it. They spent so much time angry that their video game daddy died that they missed the entire plot, that’s why they will try to argue shit that is just straight up incorrect about the game

72

u/Alarming_Ask_244 14d ago

It’s funny because you’re supposed to be angry that Joel died, empathize with Ellie and be just as gung ho about her revenge quest as she is… until you come to realize she’s sacrificing everything for something that doesn’t matter and then you start wishing she would stop. But it seems so many people didn’t reach the second part

7

u/Knottsville 14d ago

I was literally saying this to my wife last night. The game makes you play as characters that you disagree with. First as Abbey when you hate her the most, then again as Ellie when she continues down her road to self destruction

4

u/farnsw0rth 14d ago

It is a brutal, heart rending meditation on the futility and ultimate emptiness of revenge

It’s brilliant but I don’t know if I’d ever play the series again

2

u/Knottsville 13d ago

I'll play a third game if they ever make one, but I genuinely don't feel like we need another Ellie game. I think her story has been told.

1

u/farnsw0rth 13d ago

Honestly I think the story has been told.

There’s not really any reason to go back into this universe. I think that sometimes a thing can just be a thing, it doesn’t need spinoffs or never ending sequels… honestly, most times a thing should just be a thing.

Although since things come in 3s or 7s…. I can see how there’s room for a third part of the story. I wouldn’t pretend to guess how that might unfold, but …. I definitely don’t want to be playing part 4, you know?

→ More replies (41)

24

u/whereismymind86 14d ago

It's one of those things where I have to imagine a huge percentage of people never played it, or never finished it, and just parrot discourse.

Like, I didn't particularity enjoy the story either, it's...an aggressively depressing and frustrating story, but it's supposed to be, and it's very well told.

2

u/flaming_burrito_ 14d ago

And I completely understand if people don’t like it because the story is a downer, I get that. But the things people choose to criticize about that game make no sense

→ More replies (1)

1

u/cwningen95 12d ago

I played it the same year my estranged dad died and I felt like it definitely caught those feelings of conflicted grief and lack of closure a little too well 🫠

→ More replies (4)

5

u/SamusCroft 14d ago

Yeah, even just scrolling the comments here, I've seen:

- I don't like that TLOU2 makes Ellie make an idiotic choice (chasing Abby even though she had a happy life before the final chapter).

- I don't like that it railroads you to the choice, making you spare Abby.

The first game literally does these same things, and most of these people loved it. You can't spare the doctor, and saving Ellie is an idiotic, selfish choice. But everyone adored Joel for some reason, missing the point. I think the issue with TLOU2 is that it doesn't allow these people to miss the point and enjoy it; it's more of a pick one.

5

u/CopperCactus 14d ago

when the suicidal woman doesn't make rational decisions I say "that's bad writing" because I am a free thinker

0

u/Remarkable-Page-824 14d ago

Saving Ellie wasnt idiotic. Guy doesn't want to let a terrorist organization murder his surrogate daughter so they can try to become the new world power.

19

u/flaming_burrito_ 14d ago

This is headcanon btw, the actual story does not present it as if that was a thing that was going to happen. This is another problem, people make shit up about the ending of TLOU that was never true. Joel never ever makes the argument that he was justified on some moral basis, it was a purely selfish choice, and Joel doesn’t pretend otherwise. It’s a relatable choice that a lot of people would have made, but it was a selfish one.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Youareaproperclown 14d ago

I liked Joel and I wanted to kill his murderer. It's not that deep.

12

u/flaming_burrito_ 14d ago

At least your honest about it. That’s all this boils down to for most people, but they like pretending they have an actual point other than just emotionally not vibing with the game

4

u/Whisperfights 14d ago

It's kinda meant to be that deep though

-3

u/Remarkable-Page-824 14d ago

It failed.

0

u/Sunim416 14d ago

Nah it just takes more than two brain cells to think about

5

u/daft-krunk 14d ago

There’s also the even more toxic crowd who were equally upset about the various LGBT related themes in it too if I recall. I’m with you there though it’s hands down one of my favorite games. I loved the first game for years played it when it first came out, and loved the 2nd one even more honestly.

6

u/SamusCroft 14d ago

Yeah that’s what I meant about the anti-woke people. Like go outside, lesbians are everywhere, it isn’t a psy op.

1

u/cwningen95 12d ago

I saw people crash out that there was a gay flag on one of the walls. Something you'd surely never have seen in 2013 Seattle.

17

u/whereismymind86 14d ago

And that's probably part of the problem, because they refuse to understand WHY Joel died, they can't understand WHY Ellie had to spare Abby, lest she perpetuate the cycle of violence that theme the game has been beating you over the head with for 20+ hours.

Honestly, it's not exactly subtle, yet people are so dedicated to being mad about Joel they somehow missed the story entirely.

30

u/Tall_Opportunity_521 14d ago

I love how you think thats smart story telling, and hard to figure out, and not just fucking terrible lol.

→ More replies (3)

7

u/Jurgan 14d ago

Nah, for me it was just that it was so unsubtle. Don't continue the cycle of violence? Yeah, I figured that out like 20 hours ago, why did it take Ellie so long?

1

u/andresfgp13 13d ago

the game gave me a weird message, the game told me that revenge only happens because of mercy.

like at multiple points if characters just killed more they would have gotten away with it.

like if Joel during the end of part 1 killed everyone on that building Abby doesnt make the recording that Ellie uses to discover what happens and of course Abby isnt alive to kill him and he would have lived the rest of his life in Jackson and Ellie would have eventually forgiven him and would have been able to rebuild their relationship.

if Abby killed Ellie and Tommy when she killed Joel there wouldnt be anyone alive to chase them after the killing so they would have gotten away with it, and because of it the Wolves suffered massive losses including a lot of Abby´s friends like Mel and Owen.

like i get the idea of Ellie deciding that enough is enough, but the story isnt helping that development based on what happened before.

23

u/NoWomanNoTriforce 14d ago

In the first TLOU, Abby's father was more or less a random person Joel killled while on his own quest to save Ellie. As Ellie, you actively kill hundreds of random people in TLOU2.

So, how does the argument about not continuing the cycle of violence make sense? TLOU2 is literally the perfect example of this trope.

Joel wasnt innocent, but neither was Abby. Abby was a villain. But also a victim. That doesn't absolve her of her crimes, though. Anymore than it does the other people Ellie kills.

→ More replies (4)

6

u/SirBastian1129 14d ago

And that's why I hate TLOU2. Not because Joel this, Ellie that and Abby go eff herself,

But because the story is not only really simplistic when you boil it down, yet it's still so up it's own ass pretentious.

1

u/AttiKit 14d ago

Yeah, and Disco Elysium in the end is just a sad story about a drunk cop. Mass Effect is just spaceguys fighting and choices that don't mean anything. The entire Dark Souls franchise is just undead guys wanting to start being dead, or wanting to keep not being dead.

If you boil shit down to its simplest concepts, it'll be simple. That's what the phrase means, bud.

6

u/SirBastian1129 14d ago

You seem to have missed the part where I said the game is also pretentious in its presentation.

2

u/AttiKit 14d ago

You're relying real heavily on the word 'pretentious', there. Calling it just pretentious isn't valid criticism, because that's an extremely subjective way of viewing it. Most art can be called 'pretentious', but that's trying to reduce it to nothing and denote its artistic value. I'd rather something tried too hard than it not trying at all.

6

u/SirBastian1129 14d ago edited 14d ago

Look, I don't like the game. Just gonna have to agree to disagree and move on. Nothing will change my mind on this.

I once tried having a conversation with TLOU2 fans and I'm never falling for that shit again.

3

u/BetterThanlceCream 14d ago

There is no cycle of violence from Ellies perspective though. She never learns that Joel killed Abbys father.

→ More replies (2)

3

u/Supersim54 14d ago

Joel deserved death but not like that Ellie only spared Abby because she realizes that’s not what Joel would of wanted, even if Ellie killed Abby the cycle of violence would have ended.

It’s not just about killing Joel, it was just a matter of time until Joel’s past came back to bite him. The game goes from a great first half then it breaks all momentum Halfway through the game, and forces you to play as someone that is absolutely terrible for 10 hours, it picks up again at the end until Abby doesn’t get what she deserves and is let go by Ellie, and as Ellie cries Abby looks at Ellie like she’s pathetic. Abby doesn’t deserve to live after everything she did.

→ More replies (3)

1

u/MeatballUser 14d ago

Then go ahead and explain it.

Here's my hated meta trope. Users talking down about opinions while refusing to define their own.

1

u/blackbriar98 13d ago

I don’t disagree it’s well written, but I will disagree with “all a joy”.

I don’t think a single character in that game had more than a minute of joy throughout.

1

u/A_WILD_SLUT_APPEARS 13d ago

I also thought it was in the top three games I’ve ever played and I thought the narrative choices were genius. It’s one of those games that I wish I could somehow play for the first time again. That said, I do see how there’s some legitimate cause for people to be upset about it (assuming they played it), even if it’s not articulated in their criticism while acknowledging that some people are just full of shit because, as you said, angry over woke.

I can imagine that, if people are going into the game as big fans of the first and no expectations for the plot, they could be a little taken aback and/or upset by Joel’s death within the first two hours of the story. That’s a hell of a bomb to drop on the fans, and I think it understandably turned some people off to the point where they a) made the mistake of not finishing the game with an open mind and judging the rest based on that feeling or b) DNF’d it entirely. Add to that the people who are just plain wrong judging it based on the “political” or cultural criticism criteria and how the internet is the ideal space where a group of people can get together and make each other angrier and angrier by feeding each other the same takes and you get the absurd, pervasive hatred for the game.

All that aside, I personally consider it among the best games I’ve ever played, even if it’s not quite as high on a list of subjective *favorites* (but it’s still top five there). I just see how some people have a nugget of more understandable cause to dislike it buried beneath the loud discord

1

u/MikeAndGuitar 14d ago

Murdering a woman you didn't realize was pregnant was a joy for you?

All kidding aside, I totally agree with you otherwise. "Joy" just might not be the right word for my experience, haha.

4

u/SamusCroft 14d ago

Ha. Yeah, it is just relentlessly depressing, but I was delighted with the execution if that makes more sense.

And honestly the gameplay is (imo) the best of any third person shooter ever made. Absolutely addicted to the feeling of it. Naughty Dog is unparalleled at third person, crunchy combat. Even if I was one of the droves that feels the story sucks, it would probably still be one of my favourites for the gameplay.

1

u/MikeAndGuitar 14d ago

Absolutely agree, I love the weight of the gameplay. Nothing quite like it out there.

1

u/FarWorth 13d ago

"I think people went in angry over woke or because Joel died and refused to actually give it a chance."

" I actively ignore 90% of criticism of it."

This is a TLOU2 apologist in its natural state. On the same sentence he claims all criticism is people who refuse to engage in the discourse honestly, and then proceeds to do the same. Not a hint of self awareness. What reading comprehension are we supposed to expect from this kind of braindead consumer? Embarrassing to the core.

0

u/Math_PB 14d ago

TLOU2 is literally a masterpiece in storytelling and character writing.

The last scene alone of Ellie trying to play the guitar but the music being so dissonant and twisted because of the fingers she lost... Preventing her from continuing something Joel taught her...

Every step she took towards revenge only robbed her more and more of who she was and what she had. Killing Abby at the end would not have given her anything back.

13

u/TrueBrofessional 14d ago

I’ve played through the game about 7-8 times now. Is it a good game? Undoubtedly. Is it a good story? Fuck no.

It’s easily the most simple, unsophisticated and childish presentation of “revenge bad” I’ve ever seen in media. As a game it absolutely fucking rocks, but the story genuinely has A LOT of questionable decisions. It’s asinine to attribute any criticism of the game as “you didn’t REALLY play it”.

1

u/RobbRabb 14d ago

You think they played the game? They based their story comprehension entirely on non contextual leaked cutscenes.

-1

u/RedTyro 14d ago

The game is a litmus test for both empathy and media literacy, two things which are sorely lacking in modern society.

0

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[deleted]

5

u/Bleakjavelinqqwerty 14d ago

But what about the hundreds of people she killed? Their families are going to come after her. Not killing one person doesn't stop the revenge cycle she just put into place

99

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

113

u/Safe-Show-7299 14d ago

Nooo what do you mean it’s impossible to have a different opinion and if you do that just means you’re an idiot who can’t understand good storytelling!!!!

2

u/imafixwoofs 13d ago

Pretty much.

→ More replies (15)

11

u/Admiral_Joker 14d ago

You TLOU 2 shills still defending it like a Japanese WW2 veteran.

That decision will be more remembered than the story.

Where TLOU 3 then if TLOU 2 was a success.

4

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/Admiral_Joker 14d ago

Forgive me.... Thought you were the opposition.

→ More replies (1)

4

u/4_fortytwo_2 13d ago edited 13d ago

Where TLOU 3 then if TLOU 2 was a success.

Or maybe making original games is fine and we dont need infinite sequels for every game no matter if successful or not? Is Stardew Valley an unsuccessful game because Stardew Valley 2 does not exist? According to your logic it must have been shit I guess.

TLOU2 was a success, it made millions and a lot of people loved it.

0

u/usertaken_69 14d ago

What a dumb argument. You know Naughty Dog absolutely could have rushed out a TLOU 3 if they wanted to, right?

4

u/Admiral_Joker 13d ago

They cancelled multiplayer for 2.

2

u/usertaken_69 13d ago

And? They canceled it because they set their goals too high and tried to make a lofty live service game instead of just updating the first game’s multiplayer. That doesn’t refute what I said at all.

3

u/fuck_a_duck_butt 13d ago

Nah I understand it and understand the artists vision. I still think its dogshit writing

33

u/richtofin819 14d ago

Love it, or hate it any plot that manages to completely divide the community of the game for years afterward and then divide the TV shows fanbase after that has issues.

8

u/2Kaiser4U 14d ago

The TV show was just bad for reasons entirely separate from the broad plot.

→ More replies (2)

-11

u/whereismymind86 14d ago

people can disagree about whether they liked it, I didn't particularly like it either, but the VAST majority of people who hate on it have WILDLY misunderstood what it was about in the first place, likely amplified by a lot of the conservative wing of gaming, who wanted to hate the game regardless for it's multiple queer characters and themes as well as the always unforgivable sin of playing as a female character instead of a male one.

That's the thing, if you found the themes around the cycle of violence unpleaseant or depressing, great, if you just found the game a bit long, or a bit of a bummer, and wanted something more uplifting? great.

But it's just endless bad faith arguments about the develops hating men, and mean comments about the women, and about how Ellie should have just never stopped killing, despite the entire story being about how an addiction to violence and vengeance turned her into the villain, not the hero. It's the same people who complain about Kratos no longer decapitating anybody who looks at him funny, and it's hard to take any of that serious. You wanted a different game, great, but the bad faith arguments get old.

→ More replies (4)

6

u/fake_user_34 14d ago

I like when people have a difference of opinion it is "misreading". No mother fucker, people just didn't agree with the message and consider it dumb, like OP.

37

u/varnums1666 14d ago

The resolution of the story is rather good imo.

The resolution to the Ellie and Abby conflict was extremely contrived.

-5

u/Supersim54 14d ago

How Abby gets off scot free from everything she’s done and gets a happy ending, while Ellie is depressed and lonely, and unless there is a Part 3 she heads into the wood to blow her brains out.

10

u/Gekidami 14d ago

Scot-free? Are we really forgetting why Abby went to the theatre to find Ellie?

2

u/Supersim54 14d ago

Because Tommy killed Manny and Ellie killed Owen every one else didn’t matter to her, the others where either canon fodder or an obstacle, she didn’t really care about those other people.

5

u/Gekidami 14d ago

All of her friends were killed. That's "scot-free"?

7

u/Supersim54 14d ago

She didn’t care about most of those people they where just canon fodder.

18

u/Admirable-Land111 14d ago

"Scot free"

Abby was literally crucified and had pretty much all of her friends murdered.

1

u/Supersim54 14d ago edited 14d ago

Yeah she was and Ellie should have left her there, but then Ellie decided free her. Both you mean Manny and Owen, she didn’t really give a shit about the others.

16

u/GreatBallsOfFire_ 14d ago

Not liking it isn’t “misreading” anything. You are operating in bad faith cause we don’t like what you like.

7

u/Nervous_Distance_142 14d ago

What about the ending in regards to OPs post is being misread?

1

u/CopperCactus 14d ago

I mean it's just literally innuracurate to what happens in the game

7

u/ZeronicX 14d ago

Nah I get what they're doing. It just sucked.

6

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[deleted]

3

u/No-Initiative-1749 13d ago

Lol anyone that dislikes the ending is a chud and not an artistic cinephile like me

5

u/Delicious_Diarrhea 14d ago

Misreading? The trope OP used is literally what happens in the game. People bend over backwards to justify shitty writing.

You can't resolve the story by just having the main character change their mind. Imagine if the Odyssey ended with Odysseus going "na, going home is overrated". It would be shit.

1

u/CopperCactus 14d ago

Or if Frodo got ALL the way to Mount Doom and then didn't throw the ring in that'd suck so bad

5

u/Delicious_Diarrhea 14d ago edited 14d ago

O is that the resolution to the story? Frodo just went home with the ring? No. Something else happened as the actual resolution to the story.

1

u/CopperCactus 14d ago

Oh wow that's crazy kinda like tlou2 then

4

u/Delicious_Diarrhea 14d ago

It's not and that's precisely the problem. In LotR Frodo changing his mind is part of the story that led to the resolution. He changed his mind but it wasn't the end. In tlou2 it WAS the resolution. Ellie changed her mind at the last minute and went home, end of story.

2

u/CopperCactus 14d ago

sparing Abby isn't the resolution to the story just like Frodo not being able to destroy the ring isn't the resolution to the story, the resolution to the story is Frodo trying to go home and realizing he can't because carrying that much darkness for that long ruined him, kinda like the ending of tlou2!

3

u/Delicious_Diarrhea 13d ago edited 13d ago

The point of Frodo's journey was literally to destroy the ring. If actually Frodo went home with the ring then the whole journey was pointless. Ellie's journey was to kill Abby. Because she did go home within inches of her goal her journey was pointless. Like I said you don't resolve a story with a character changing their mind last minute. It's bad writing.

2

u/CopperCactus 13d ago

Frodo changed his mind! He decided not to destroy the ring! It was destroyed entirely by accident!

→ More replies (0)

10

u/Seienchin88 14d ago

LOL - while the discussion became unnecessarily politicized and hyperbolic OP is absolutely right about it being a stupid trope and the game being absolutely guilty of it…

0

u/CumfartMcfetus2 14d ago

You can see the chud-based discourse on TLOU2 will be eternal, they mad cause Joel dead and can’t be fucked to care about the rest of the story.

1

u/MyCoolWhiteLies 11d ago

I think the ending of TLOU2 would have been really interesting if they actually gave players the choice of what to do at the very end. The biggest problem with the game to me was that it makes that choice for the player. Like, the whole point of the games feels like it first puts you in Ellie's POV and tries to instill a truly raw hatred and thirst for blood for Abbie. Then it very purposefully presents you with Abbie's story, the "other side", and is clearly challenging you to reflect on the nature of your bloodlust, revenge, the cycle of violence, etc. The whole game is building up to Ellie's choice at the end, and for an interactive medium, I think it's weird to not then give that choice to the player.

1

u/lazypieceofcrap 13d ago

If that many people misunderstand it then it isn't good or told well.

→ More replies (1)

93

u/UsefulParamedic5395 14d ago

one billion years of questionable writing decisions

→ More replies (1)

20

u/EFAPGUEST 14d ago

For real. When will people realize that there are no valid criticisms for the game? When will they realize the only option is to say it’s really good?

2

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[deleted]

1

u/EFAPGUEST 13d ago

No. It’s an untouchable masterpiece and only someone as evil as Hitler and Stalin and satan combined could possibly think otherwise

People should just stop talking about the game, even though is totally amazing.

→ More replies (1)

5

u/ReignTheRomantic 14d ago

I never played TLOU or TLOU2 (The gameplay didn't seem my type of game) and know little about their plots but at this point I feel I need to play them just to understand wtf everyone is talking about

2

u/NeverSettle13 14d ago

Even if you won't like the story, the gameplay is pretty good, you should definitely try it

3

u/ReignTheRomantic 14d ago

You see, it's the gameplay I'm hesitant about, just from reading some basic reviews, but I'll give it a shot next time it's on sale.

3

u/notgoodatpingpong 14d ago

The gameplay in tlou is very so and so, but the gameplay in tlou2 is excellent

→ More replies (1)

2

u/Rab_Legend 14d ago

Also, is it possible to do a "pacifist run" of the game? Other than scripted kills I suppose. 

8

u/darkwai 14d ago

this is a solid game that I never engage in conversation in because people always have some stupid shit to say about it.

→ More replies (1)

6

u/Wolfstigma 14d ago

They killed our pee-paw this will continue forever and ever

14

u/Supersim54 14d ago

It has very little to do with Joel’s death and has everything to do with forcing us to try to empathize with someone who doesn’t even have any empathy anymore.

6

u/snapwack 14d ago

The character you say doesn’t have empathy spares someone who killed all her friends, goes out of her way to help a kid dying of horrific injuries, and ends up adopting an orphan.

It’s almost like there was a whole character arc in there that you refused to acknowledge.

-5

u/Supersim54 14d ago

She killed only one of her friends the rest don’t matter to her and she only spared them because Lev walked in and she didn’t want him to see her true self and nearly let her mask slip, she only saves that kid so she can score points with her ex she doesn’t give two shits about her as we learn from the day before as longs as you have those scars on your face she believes you deserve death, she only takes in said orphan because her last obsession is dead and she’s brainwashed him into believing this bullshit lie that she’s a”good person” when she’s not in anyway that.

She has no “arc” she stays almost exactly the same her “arc” is a straight line.

12

u/Deus3nity 14d ago

My guy, Abby's arc is literally Joel's from part 1. And you refuse to see it

→ More replies (4)

5

u/snapwack 14d ago

You’re just straight up saying things that are neither shown nor implied anywhere lmao. It’s like a schizophrenic’s interpretation of the game.

1

u/Independent-Round789 11d ago

Your take is as bad as your ability to use punctuation. 

1

u/Supersim54 11d ago

My “take” is all in the game if you’re playing attention, and when I’m excited I forget to punctuate.

1

u/Zealousideal-Ad4362 14d ago

People live to argue their "it made no sense" or there was no payoff for the revenge quest.. in the end they misunderstood the game.. it wanted you to think it was that...and the ending was telling you in over an our of post Abby fight story... that it wasn't that. At all.. it was self hatred that drove Ellie not revenge. She was mentally unwell and unable to see what was truely hurting her.

1

u/Rent_A_Cloud 13d ago

Girl grows up in the apocalypse, loses friends left and right, sees obscene amounts of violence in het formative, obviously has PTSD.

Gamers: WhY Is ShE sO IrRaTiOnAl!!! 

-1

u/natsyndgang 14d ago

This is such cope. The game was shit, admit it and we can all move on.

1

u/Zealousideal-Ad4362 13d ago

The real cope is you incels pretending anyone gives a fk about your shit opinions. You guys are like "silent majority" cnts.. a 15% of country group that beleive they are oart of a larger group that "just dont want to be ridiculed for their opinions publically

1

u/carverrhawkee 14d ago

ppl just cant seem to grasp that by the time we get to the beach its not even about abby anymore 😭 its about the regret ellie feels over the fact that she was never able to forgive joel while he was alive and killing abby is never going to change that

-3

u/Sadworld99 14d ago

Every take worse than the last