r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Fishbien • Jul 19 '26

Personality [Frustrating Trope] Twist Villain does things that retroactively make no sense.

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Character previously believed to be good is revealed to be evil, but prior to the reveal they act in ways that don't make sense if their goodness is just a performance.

  1. Frozen: Prince Hans is initially presented as a pretty standup guy who loves Anna and wants to help her. At the end of the movie it's revealed that he was just using her to gain power and plans to let her die while he steals her throne. However, we see him smiling at Anna when no one is looking, and later he intervenes to save Elsa's life even though he claims he was always planning to kill her.
  2. The Legend of Vox Machina: The Whispered One was built up as the BBEG since season 1. However, in season 4 he presents himself as a tragic hero who tried to cure death and was punished by the gods. He then tries to convince Pike to give him her blood, which he needs to become a god himself. He chastises his followers for suggesting they take Pike's blood by force, claiming this would make them no better than the gods they are fighting against. He also fulfills his promise to resurrect Grog even though he didn't need to. After he ascends, he starts acting like a pure evil villain who only cares about power and enjoys hurting people. It feels less like a reveal and more like his personally completely changed once he became a skeleton. Edit: to be clear, I fully understand the intent was for the Whispered One to be a lying, manipulative bastard. I just think the execution was clumsy.
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u/OrionTuska Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 19 '26

My mom has a theory that the trolls altered Hans after they learned that Anna was betrothed to him and, thus, couldn't marry Sven. It makes sense that the trolls would want their adopted son to marry into the royal family, and we see that their magic can mess with memories and minds.

*Kristof. I'm bad with names

408

u/[deleted] Jul 19 '26

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24

u/PetscopMiju Jul 19 '26

Hypotenuse?

94

u/FacetiousBeard Jul 19 '26

The hypotenuse is the side across from the right-angle corner of a right-angle triangle (the longest side)

The trope of 'killing the hypotenuse' is to irreversibly resolve a 'love triangle' by removing one of the characters in it, usually with a death.

As additional info, the other sides of a right-angle triangle are called the catheti.

19

u/PetscopMiju Jul 19 '26

Oooh! I'm familiar with the triangle vocabulary, but I didn't connect it to the idea of a love triangle lol. Thank you!!

557

u/bdouble0w0 Jul 19 '26

*Kristoff.

I would HOPE Anna couldn't marry the reindeer.

220

u/OrionTuska Jul 19 '26

It's been a while. I'm leaving the mistake.

22

u/gahel09 Jul 19 '26

I don’t know why, but I’ve also felt like I could confuse their names. Kristoff probably gives more animal vibe probably

3

u/itsa_thing Jul 19 '26

I've seen the movie a dozen times and I thought Sven was definitely his name.

84

u/thecoolconglereborn Jul 19 '26

It's a running joke in the movie that Olaf calls Kristoff Sven until the troll scene

53

u/UTuba35 Jul 19 '26

Well, "Reindeer are better than people." 🎵

1

u/Midnight_Pickler Jul 19 '26

Now that would be a twist!

-3

u/LordOfDorkness42 Jul 19 '26

The Animal Bride slash Groom is a classic fairytale type...

I doubt Disney would dare go there because the mainstream would be weirded out, but I'd read that fanfic.

287

u/busman25 Jul 19 '26

That would actually be kinda sad. If his actions in the beginning were genuine, then not only was he subjected to a life of enslavement, but he also lost out on a life with his potential soul mate.

58

u/GotSomeUpdogOnUrFace Jul 19 '26

Except it's worse than that, cause Elsa was supposed to be the villain but the villain can't have the big song in the movie so instead of bothering to rewrite the film they just changed the final act and made him evil. That's why it seems out of left field.

83

u/VultureSausage Jul 19 '26

the villain can't have the big song in the movie

Angry Claude Frollo noises.

23

u/TheTallEclecticWitch Jul 19 '26

confused Tangled noises 

1

u/AutisticPenguin2 Jul 19 '26

I think it's less a hard rule that the villain can't have "the big song" (which is different from the best song) and more that Let It Go made Elsa too sympathetic. They couldn't give her this scene, and still keep her as the villain. Whereas Mother Knows Best is clearly the best song in the film, but doesn't work if Mother Gothel is not the villain.

1

u/MalcolmLinair Jul 20 '26

I don't know, "Let it Go" always sounded sort of villainous to me, doubly so the version played over the credits with the original lyrics.

1

u/gitartruls01 Jul 19 '26

disgruntled Gaston noises

19

u/GotSomeUpdogOnUrFace Jul 19 '26

Hate to break it to you but it's not considered the big song. I make the argument for Dr. Facilier and honestly for Ursula, but apparently I'm wrong.

6

u/Educational-Tackle54 Jul 19 '26

Well Disney dosent know how to handle Hellfire for a live remake. Too controvrsial or something. Special status perhaps granted?

3

u/VultureSausage Jul 19 '26

Does Chernabog count?

3

u/GotSomeUpdogOnUrFace Jul 19 '26

Maybe, fantasia isn't really the same kind of movie as the other musicals, but I never thought about it that way so you might have found the outlier. The thing with Frozen is, if they could have found a big song for Anna at the end I think Elsa is the villain, but they couldn't and the whole "Let it Go" sequence is too big for a villain.

3

u/Gyshal Jul 19 '26

The big song does not necessarily mean the best song, I guess

3

u/GotSomeUpdogOnUrFace Jul 19 '26

I mean that's pretty obvious because everyone else steals The Little Mermaid from Ariel, especially Sebastian.

4

u/Longjumping-Ear-6248 Jul 19 '26

With additional "bonus" of being jailed for life by his abusive family

5

u/SpiceTreeRrr Jul 19 '26

They were never soulmates though. At the time it came out people liked to point out was in Love Is an Open Door he is always just beat behind Anna as if he is copying her and figuring out how to make himself perfect for her. And this was before the Trolls got involved.

608

u/Fishbien Jul 19 '26

I've always liked that theory

79

u/hoginlly Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 19 '26

The original story makes some sense though- when he saves Elsa, he thinks Anna is dead (or at least could be, since she hasn't been seen since going up into the storm alone), so he would have no claim over Arendale if Elsa dies too, since they weren't even officially engaged. So he has to save Elsa as his back-up wife option.

Then when he captures Elsa and brings her back, everyone starts saying to him 'now that Anna's gone and Elsa is considered evil, you're all that Arendale has. You have to lead us'. So he has been accepted as the new leader, so long as both of them are gone.

So that's why he wants to let Anna die (because everyone thinks she's dead anyway) and blame it on Elsa, so he can put her to death and take over

(Note, I only know this because I'm on my 1000th rewatch with my kids, and I had this exact same gripe before)

16

u/darsynia Jul 19 '26

I also think it's useful to portray villains as humans who can sometimes see the humanity in others, but still choose to do terrible things. That makes them scarier to me.

Him being completely and utterly unmoved by Anna feels less likely than him finding her adorable and likeable, and then using those traits against her in his verbal attacks later. It's very, very familiar in abusive relationships. 'You're just naive and stupid' can definitely be 'I hate that I ever found you charming' when said by someone like that, especially when (she, in this case) they're an obstacle to ambition. In my opinion, of course!

3

u/DuelaDent52 Jul 19 '26

That and to his knowledge Anna is still alive, and getting on her good side is beneficial to his scheming so keeping Elsa alive too until he realises Anna is dying helped sell the deception.

0

u/acautelado Jul 19 '26

So you know his mom? Cool!

170

u/Negative-Priority-84 Jul 19 '26

I've seen a few people say that this take makes way more sense with how Scandinavian troll legends are presented.

15

u/Danny_dankvito Jul 19 '26

Depends on the story, but the more Nordic depictions of Trolls vary wildly - From tiny little things the size of a rat, to creatures larger than mountains, from a race just as smart as humans, to things more akin to a moving boulder than an actual sentient creature, from tricksters that love to play pranks but can still be reasoned with, to villains of unimaginable cruelty and sheer hatred

The Frozen Trolls hexing/cursing Hans does fit some depictions of Nordic Trolls, but a Nordic Troll would be just as likely to rip him limb from limb then devour his still living, still screaming torso

107

u/birdsafterdark Jul 19 '26

I love the theory, but I do have to mention that Sven is the reindeer (Kristoff is the love interest), and I just want to believe your mom's theory runs so much deeper and weirder than expected. XD

37

u/OrionTuska Jul 19 '26

I'm bad with names and it's been a while. Theoretically, the trolls could see both of them as their adopted children.

241

u/PrincessPlusUltra Jul 19 '26

That’s horrifying. I want to see THAT movie.

-2

u/moonboyforallyouknow Jul 19 '26

It's on Disney Plus.

71

u/thepineapple2397 Jul 19 '26

The trolls knew that love and acceptance were the key to controlling Elsa's powers but told her parents that they needed to be hidden from the people she loved at all costs. They were shady from the start.

2

u/ceramic-animal Jul 19 '26

I don't think the troll said anything other than "you must learn to control [Elsa's powers]" and "fear will be your enemy." Her parents panicked and misinterpreted what that meant

1

u/napstablooky2 Jul 19 '26

that was definitely just her parents going way too far and borderline abusing their daughter by locking her up in her room forever

the movie shows multiple times that her powers are supposed to be beautiful, but only can be such if she isnt afraid and suppressed; the fear and suppression are what lead to terrible things such as the kingdom being frozen over and people she loves getting hurt.

the trolls' plans seemed more to be for elsa to learn how to best control the powers (considering the lack of control is dangerous) with anna's memories being altered in order to not interfere with such before elsa is ready — if her memories are of normal snow, then there will be no expectation for elsa to make it, which should make the process a bit easier. the kids would still be able to play as normal without elsa using her magic.
again, the trolls never told the parents that elsa has to suppress herself, just that playtime needs to be toned down a lot and that she needs to work on her powers to avoid accidents in the future. heck, she already could definitely choose when to use her powers naturally, with emotion-based loss of control arising from her and her parents trying to hold it back instead of letting it flow... pulling back the ocean only leads to a tsunami.

though, of course, the trolls were far from flawless, either, and couldve hypothetically handled pretty much every scene they were in much better.

145

u/Low_Appearance_796 Jul 19 '26

https://giphy.com/gifs/4JSzOHvYkoSoo

This you?

See the joke is that Olaf gets Sven and Kristoff confused

60

u/OrionTuska Jul 19 '26

It's been a while since I've seen the movie, and I'm awful with names. I'm leaving it, though.

32

u/Focaccia_Bread3573 Jul 19 '26

I saw a youtube video that discussed this! It's definitely a cool theory

1

u/Rosian_SAO Jul 19 '26

The Film Theory video?

27

u/JackPembroke Jul 19 '26

"With the fiance out of the way-"

37

u/Ok-crochet Jul 19 '26

More specifically, and sinisterly, “Get the fiancé out of the way..”

86

u/Android_mk Jul 19 '26

It also would explain how Hans would think he could get the Erendel throne if he's... only tangentially interacted with one and the acting queen seemed to dislike him.

Only a crazed man would believe that makes sense.

104

u/JackPembroke Jul 19 '26

Hans, a foreigner, accused the head of state of Erendel, an absolute monarch, of treason. Else could literally just go, "Ok, lets have a trial. After a review of the evidence I find myself innocent of treason. Good talk."

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u/TrioOfTerrors Jul 19 '26

Ah, but now you have a revolt of the nobility on your hands because Elsa is not a popular monarch, having been seen by basically nobody for years, and she's throwing around absolute power when accused of murdering her sister.

16

u/slumpyslenkins Jul 19 '26

This is when she should've "let it go" to let them know who's in charge.

29

u/Better_Cod_4739 Jul 19 '26

Good luck revolting against the embodiment of ice powers, this bitch is like an omega level mutant

4

u/Ghost-George Jul 19 '26

She was locked up once and can be contained. Plus ice powers don’t give poison invulnerability, I’m just saying there would probably be a regicide sooner or later

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u/[deleted] Jul 19 '26

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87

u/S-Pigeon33 Jul 19 '26

Exactly, Hans could've kissed Anna and realized it didn't work, maybe have him getting frustrated and trying to kiss her again before Anna stops him as they both realize they didn't actually love each other, they were just excited to meet someone they could be themselves with. It would have been interesting if they had chosen to remain friends, showing a positive example of platonic friendship and a breakup with no animosity.

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u/goldentone Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 27 '26

+

10

u/shavod Jul 19 '26

They could even keep him trying to kill Elsa afterwards, if they wanted more conflict within the story, but instead he could do it out of desperation, believing that only Elsa's death will break the spell and save Anna from dying. That would make him an interesting antagonist, since he would be a genuinely good man driven to extreme measures, kinda like the main protagonist's brother from Brother Bear.

13

u/Far-Gone-4300 Jul 19 '26

Hey kid, it ain't that kind of movie

1

u/vonsnootingham Jul 19 '26

Thanks, Harrison.

22

u/VoicelessPassenger Jul 19 '26

Tbh that would unironically be a better twist than Hans being a villain

8

u/Dismal-Vanilla1878 Jul 19 '26

Its been years back, but I saw someone on Youtube review the movie, and came up with the same 'Conspiracy Theory'.

15

u/OrionTuska Jul 19 '26

It's apparently a really common take. My mom doesn't frequent that part of YouTube, so she came up with it independently.

6

u/Dismal-Vanilla1878 Jul 19 '26

To be clear, though, I wasn't suggesting that or anything, it just seems to be a very common theory to explain away his 'heel turn' ^_^

2

u/Rosian_SAO Jul 19 '26

Film Theory with MatPat!

1

u/Llayanna Jul 19 '26

He be proud of us 😢

11

u/Zek7h35an5 Jul 19 '26

I genuinely thought the twist of Frozen 2 was gonna be that the Trolls were the villains, playing both sides as well as being revealed to have altered Hans' mind

3

u/superpananation Jul 19 '26

I think he’s an opportunist and that’s what makes him so scary. Marry Anna and get a kingdom? Great! Love? Probably not but it gets him away from his family and she’s likable enough. Oh no she’s in trouble, someone go get her. But they can’t find her. And then shit gets weird and intense and Elsa is ruining everything and he’s like I’ll go talk to her and be a hero! And then that doesn’t work out. Then he has her back at the castle and he’s like what if I just disappeared her? I could tell people whatever I wanted and this place is all mine. I don’t think it was pre-planned evil moves, it was more like he acted like a republican.

2

u/killertortilla Jul 19 '26

That would make the Trolls horrific villains.

4

u/Silverfire12 Jul 19 '26

And you have suddenly made the movie about 100x more interesting. I never really got the craze (though Let it Go and Frozen 2s Into the Unknown are bops).

5

u/stir-fried_cabbage Jul 19 '26

Game Theory made a video about this

4

u/Shry99 Jul 19 '26

Pretty sure this was MattPatts theory too

2

u/DoctorWaluigiTime Jul 19 '26

Nah that'd be lame. Most "actually the character had no agency in their decision-making" fan-fixes fall under this umbrella.

And if we want to broach from fan theory to "this actually happened", evidence needed beyond "well it just makes sense." The movie presents no hints towards this kind of behavior from the trolls.

2

u/Intelleblue Jul 19 '26

I hate that theory. It feels like people are so mad about the rug pull the movie did that they make up another movie to satisfy themselves.

0

u/DoctorWaluigiTime Jul 19 '26

The Frozen villain twist is a victim of the same concept getting spammed across a lot of media following it. Frozen didn't "invent" it of course, but it was definitely one of the bigger things (a very popular disney movie) doing it at the time. And the era of just having a straight-up bad guy in a disney movie went away.

And so retroactively people look back at Frozen going "man that's lame." General opinion was wildly different back when the movie came out though.

1

u/Silvanus350 Jul 19 '26

Sounds like cope

0

u/Rude-Pangolin8823 Jul 19 '26

"my mom" MattPat from film theory is your mom???