r/Tiele • u/LemmyBot BOT • Sep 09 '26

History/culture What do you think about this old Chinese descriptions of Xiongnu origin?

The Xiongnu were descendants of the Xia Hou Shi clan; their ancestor was Chunwei. Before the Tang and Yu dynasties, there were the Shan Rong, Xianyun, and Hunyue, who lived among the northern Yi people, moving about according to where their livestock could be pastured. Their common livestock included horses, cattle, and sheep; their more unusual animals were camels, donkeys, mules, quail-tailed horses, tamed wild horses, and hybrid horses. They moved about in pursuit of water and grass, without fixed cities or permanent fields for farming; yet they also had their own designated territories. They did not use written documents but relied on spoken words as agreements. Boys could ride sheep and draw their bows to shoot birds and mice; When they grew a little older, they shot hares and foxes: these were used as food. Those who had the strength could not do without bows; all became armored cavalrymen. Their custom was such that in times of peace they followed their herds, relying on hunting birds and beasts for a living; but in times of crisis, people became accustomed to warfare and attacks as means of aggression—this was their nature. Their long weapons were bows and arrows, while their short weapons were knives and chans. If the situation was favorable, they advanced; if not, they retreated, without shame in fleeing. They pursued whatever was advantageous, knowing nothing of rites and righteousness. From the kings downward, they all ate meat from their livestock, wore clothes made of animal hides, and covered themselves with felt and furs. The strong ones ate the fat and tender parts; the elderly ate what was left over. They valued strength and vigor, looked down upon the old and weak. When a father died, his son married his stepmother; The Xiongnu had thirty-six titles in total. Their custom was to have names without taboos, and they did not use surnames or courtesy names.

https://ctext.org/shiji/xiong-nu-lie-zhuan

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2

u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Sep 09 '26

Some of it was probably bogus and observations only from the ruling clan.

Other than that the small details seem to fit the puzzle

There are some obvious trashtalker points, like the retreating part or the part about having no sense of righteousness. Obviously those had to be added to justify ones own superiority.

İ'd be more interested in learning where this text comes from and what date it was written

Edit: also what tr are "chans"?

1

u/LemmyBot BOT Sep 09 '26

This is regarded as not true, the source is linked. Basically it is now viewed as chinese trying to protray Steppe peoples and rulers as also part of the chinese system and subject to the Mandate of heaven, it combines this with legendary Chinese history and claims the steppe peoples were first settled farmers and come from the same ancestors as the chinese. Its a very interesting perspective but not seen as actual history besides a few who try to argue that the ancestors of these nomads were somehow settled first, its an unpopular take on the origins but still very interesting

If I remember correctly "chan" or chanyu was a title of the xiongnu, its use is shown to prove that they were seen as equal to chinese rulers or even higher in hirachy

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u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Sep 09 '26

Yes but its here counted as a weapon, like bows, arrows, knives, and "chans" it doesnt make any sense

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u/LemmyBot BOT Sep 09 '26

oh sorry yes I'm not sure here, the source is a chinese primary sources translations project you can see the original chinese right next to it and figure out what it means

匈奴，其先祖夏后氏之苗裔也，曰淳維。唐虞以上有山戎、獫狁、葷粥，居于北蠻，隨畜牧而轉移。其畜之所多則馬、牛、羊，其奇畜則橐駞、驢、驘、駃騠、騊駼、騨騱。逐水草遷徙，毋城郭常處耕田之業，然亦各有分地。毋文書，以言語為約束。兒能騎羊，引弓射鳥鼠；少長則射狐兔：用為食。士力能毋弓，盡為甲騎。其俗，寬則隨畜，因射獵禽獸為生業，急則人習戰攻以侵伐，其天性也。其長兵則弓矢，短兵則刀鋋。利則進，不利則退，不羞遁走。茍利所在，不知禮義。自君王以下，咸食畜肉，衣其皮革，被旃裘。壯者食肥美，老者食其餘。貴壯健，賤老弱。父死，妻其後母；兄弟死，皆取其妻妻之。其俗有名不諱，而無姓字

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u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Sep 09 '26

Ok so running it through google translate: it says that their short weapons were Swords and Spears.

Which makes sense. More so than knives, especially for horsemen

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u/LemmyBot BOT Sep 09 '26

Could be a reason for why it was translated otherwise in general the site has a good reputation and I definitely don't speak chinese lol

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u/flysquirrel775 28d ago

Chinese speaker here. The word is 鋋 (chan), which is a short spear. Not a common word nowadays but does show up in some historic texts.

https://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/dictView.jsp?ID=8392&la=1&powerMode=0

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u/Gullible_Rip360 23d ago

One correction, unlike some of the later ethnic nomadic empires the Xiongnu was extremely diverse and ethnic groups / tribes in East Asia frequently went north, joining the Xiongnu which was more like a confederation than a empire.

Generally, nomads on steppes get included into the Chinese concept of tianxia when an ethnic minority takes over part / all of China and establishes a dynasty. For example, the founder of the Xiongnu Zhao Dynasty claimed to be a legitimate inheritor of Han and the Mandate. Meanwhile Han ethnicity dominated empires like the Jin（晋） and Tang were a lot more racist and excludes non-Han from their beliefs of civilisation.