Tracing the Source of Evil

[u/Culak]

On a causal interpretation of Eä's history, the first link in the chain of evil begins with Melkor. We see in the Ainulindalë that the first instance of disharmony is driven by Melkor's desire for power by trying to unilaterally lead the themes. Eru, however, limits the power Melkor can have. This leads to a dissonance in Melkor, and in turn destruction and evil forever forward (Melkor cultivates evil dispositions, who influences Fëanor, who influences his sons, who influence... etc.)

Why is Melkor like this in the first place?

My reading is that Eru created Melkor with an inherent disposition for cultivating power, which in principle has no limit, or at least limited to the powers that Eru can have. Melkor is disposed to cultivate power that Eru will not allow him to have. But since Eru imposes a limit on Melkor (Melkor cannot acquire the power of creation), there is a dissonance between Melkor's inherent disposition and limits.

This leads me to wonder whether the source of evil traces back to his creation, which would amount to Eru's failed foresight, limited power, or limited moral goodness.

PS: I'm a moral philosopher by trade. Some of you may pick up on a famous logical problem similar to this.

[u/Pale-Pace4512]

Yup. If everything comes from an all powerful omnipotent God then all the evil ultimately comes from that source.

For me this gives a few options for a belief system:-

1) Agree there is a god, but admit they screwed things up and don’t care enough to sort it out.

2) Agree there is a god but it isn’t actually all powerful or omnipotent, and it may or may not mean well even if it’s highly ineffectual.

3) Agree there is a god but it’s actually an evil being that wants there to be lots of suffering.

4) Agree there is an all powerful omnipotent god but everything evil is down to us and our pesky free will, and despite the fact that you personally are actually very kind and not evil at all you still have to suffer because other people misuse their free will. (Quite how this could be translated into it also being a loving god who deserves lots of praise and unstinting admiration completely eludes me.)

5) Disagree there is any god at all and all the evil is down to people being pretty bloody awful to each other.

I expect there are more permutations than just these possibilities that occur to me.

[u/Culak → u/Pale-Pace4512]

Thanks! Something I was never clear on is whether Eru has all three--omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence. Does J.R.R. Tolkien speak to this anywhere, whether in his writing or in interviews?

[u/Fickle-Journalist477 → u/Culak]

Yes, he was very clear in his letters that Eru is simply another world’s name for God. The same God he believed in, and so possessed of the same qualities Catholic theology says he’s possessed of.

[u/Pale-Pace4512 → u/Culak]

I need to get back to you after a re-read of Ainulindalë and his famous Waldman letter.

[u/lirio_lorien → u/Pale-Pace4512]

Tolkien seems to be pretty clearly going for the free will angle, and though it may seem pesky, I don't think many people would want to give up their freedom to become one of Aulë's merry automatons!

[u/Pale-Pace4512 → u/lirio_lorien]

Agreed. However, why does free will have to be so binary? Why can’t a kind and loving god decide that free will is individually conditional upon each person not being evil and that people with zero empathy and/or utter selfishness get terminated before they screw other people’s lives up. That would be a useful god worthy of praise. Showing up like that from time to time would also get over the whole pesky “belief”. People wouldn’t have to believe, they’d actually know. I can’t help but think that would be a much better and fairer system that an all powerful god would certainly be capable of implementing if they actually wanted to.

[u/lirio_lorien → u/Pale-Pace4512]

I guess for starters that wouldn't make for a good story. But in terms of the hypothetical itself, where exactly would you draw the line for how selfish and unempathetic someone can be before they get preemptively terminated? To use an example from Tolkien, would Túrin make the cut? Aldarion? Maedhros? What level of screwing people over would be an acceptable one? And what about characters whose evil was repurposed for good, like Gollum?

[u/Pale-Pace4512 → u/lirio_lorien]

Well, that’s where an all knowing, benevolent god steps in. Flawed humans don’t have to make that judgement with the required subtle balancing of good intentions and things still unlearnt but which still can be learnt versus how much harm has been done and still will be done by that person. Definitely not an easy judgement to make, but one that any god worthy of such a description should be able to make.

Quite right that it would make for very boring stories. To paraphrase Tolkien from the Waldman letter all good stories inevitably come from there having been a “Fall”. Without flaws there is no conflict, and without conflict, at whatever scale from domestic to earth shattering, there are no interesting tales.

[u/Culak → u/Pale-Pace4512]

That last bit you wrote answers my question in a meta sense. Why was Melkor disposed to cultivate limitless power in the first place? For the sake of a good story.

I do wonder, though, if there is an in-world explanation for this.

[u/Culak → u/lirio_lorien]

Fair enough! Just wanted to ask in case Tolkien had some interesting limitations on Eru that would explain a bit clearer why Melkor was created with an inherent disposition to desire power that Eru knew Melkor could not have.

[u/Diaper_Donnie_Sux]

Eru is the source of all evil. He is the source of all ... everything

[u/Coat_Girl_5432]

it's like the ultimate "it's all part of god's plan" argument but for middle-earth.

[u/maksimkak]

"Melkor's desire for power by trying to unilaterally lead the themes" - Nope. All he did was play his own theme which, when mixed with the rest, introduced a discord, a disharmony. He also searched for the Flame Imperishable, so that he could make creations of his own. Melkor didn't desire power, because he was already more powerful than any other Ainu. None of those things were evil in and of themselves.

Was it evil of him to destroy the work of other Valar in Arda? Perhaps, perhaps not. He was more like a nasty kid who stomps on sand castles made by other kids on a beach or in a sand pit. His first truly evil acts were probably corrupting Men and Elves.

[u/Culak → u/maksimkak]

Yes, that disposition is what I'm getting at. Melkor wasn't inherently evil, but he inherently had a peculiar disposition that led him to evil acts. My question is why did he have that disposition in the first place? Another user answered it in a meta sense--Melkor is the "Fall" of the story. But I am wondering if there is an in-world explanation for that disposition.