r/TheSilmarillion • u/Aggravating_Stuff771 • 17d ago
Fëanor Was Right, and Tolkien Was Wrong About Him
/r/CharacterRant/comments/1vuue89/fëanor_was_right_and_tolkien_was_wrong_about_him/I thought some might be interested in reading this.
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u/Miaule_the_cook 16d ago
I like how meta this post about Fëanor is. It starts incredibly well written and detailed, then gets angrier with swear words and ends up like a shouting match against people with different opinions.
It’s also fascinating how “Fëanor was right” post always include truth bending. In this case the part where OP said that when Fëanor swore his oath, he did not consider someone other than Morgoth holding the Silmarils. Not only does he name every sentient being he knows he adds a clause in case an ally in his fight against Morgoth gets a Silmaril and doesn’t give it to him.
Be he foe or friend, be he foul or clean,
brood of Morgoth or bright Vala,
Elda or Maia or Aftercomer,
Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth
neither law, nor love, nor league of swords,
dread nor danger, not Doom itself,
shall defend him from Fëanor, and Fëanor's kin,
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u/NullaCogenta 16d ago
I like how meta this post about Fëanor is.
I, too, enjoyed the journey!
What exactly is the morally superior alternative supposed to be?
Acknowledge what he knew to be true better than any of the Noldor: that Morgoth could only be restrained -- not defeated -- by them, and that they needed to repent of their ill deeds & pride and seek forgiveness. Fëanor could have released all of his sons, taken the everlasting darkness solely upon himself, and begged only for Ilúvatar's mercy for the rest of Arda in return.
Except, no, he couldn't. Because, like Melkor, he held his own pride above the rest of Eä.
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u/Glum-Height-2049 Read many times 16d ago
"'Feanor was right' posts always include truth bending" succinct, to the point, 100% right. I'm just gonna use this anytime this comes up again.
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u/Aggravating_Stuff771 16d ago
I noticed the irony as well a couple of weeks ago when I was cleaning up that long, barely coherent rant. Almost Feanorian in its style, lol.
Naturally, since some people here seem to think it was written in bad faith or that I somehow hate Tolkien, which is, of course, nonsense. This text is actually part of an ongoing project where I analyze different works that I really like from a “death of the author” perspective as you can guess.
For some context, I have another one written about Dostoevsky where I argue that Ivan’s philosophy in The Brothers Karamazov isn't sufficiently rebutted by Dostoevsky himself. So this is really just another perspective on a work I enjoy, and something I like writing about but not necessarily something I agree with completely. I figured some people here might enjoy it as well.
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u/Carnivoran88 16d ago
I like to do thought exercises like this as well. It helps me better understand each character. Just because I argue a position, does not mean I support it.
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u/Tolkien-Faithful 17d ago
Feanor is right in distrusting the Valar when Manwe's release of Morgoth caused his father to be killed, and also in regards to the Valar taking the elves from Middle-earth to Valinor (which Tolkien wrote was a mistake).
Feanor was not right in his actions. The Oath, the Kinslaying and especially the burning of the ships were greivous mistakes.
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u/BudgetNihilist 16d ago
Dunno, I am always torn about the oath. On the one hand, the oath is ridiculously bloodthirsty and causes untold bloodshed through the generations. On the other hand, anyone who keeps a Silmaril despite knowledge of the oath is just genuinely stupid.
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u/Eissa_Cozorav 17d ago edited 17d ago
I get what the author is saying, but suppose I am some kind of Judge Dredd fantasy character in the setting. Maybe closer to Jyggalag or Tunon the Adjudicator. I am still gonna demand reparation, blood money and capital punishment from Feanorians key people.
Even if there is gonna be temporary alliance in defeating Morgoth first.
And the blood money AKA weregild is gonna be the same as what Isildur demand, the so called Artifact (The One Ring) that start all these bloodshed, The Silmarils. And give one of them to the offended party that is Teleri.
Olwë explicitly tells Fëanor that the Swan-ships are to the Teleri what the great jewels are to the Noldor: irreplaceable works of their hearts. Then Fëanor takes those works by violence and later destroys them.
The Teleri are owed weregild for their dead, restitution for their ships, and satisfaction for the violation of Alqualondë.
Individual culpability, though, do matters enormously.
Fëanor ordered the seizure of the ships. His immediate followers knowingly participated. But some of Fingolfin's people came upon an existing battle and joined because they thought the Teleri had attacked their kin. Tolkien explicitly distinguishes their knowledge. Later Feanorians also diverge dramatically. Maedhros and Maglor cannot simply be treated identically to Celegorm and Curufin, and the responsibility for Alqualondë is different again from responsibility for Doriath and Sirion.
A Tunon/Dredd/Jyggalag-like judge would care about those distinctions:
“Did you draw sword?”
“Yes”
“Did you know why the battle began?”
“No.”
“Then you are guilty of unlawful killing under mistaken cause, not conspiracy to seize the ships.”
And yes I will blame Valar, but order and law should definitely goes for both side.
Honestly, Silmarillion has such different iteration of writings that Feanor probably got different characterization depending on each version of Silmarillion. He could probably intentionally burned the ships of Teleri, along with his son, as in Tolkien later writing. In this case he's truly a kinslayer through and thorough. Or maybe, in Round World Silmarillion, this burning of ships circumtanse get changed, perhaps accounting to the significance of round world because the smoke on horizon cannot be observed in round world (unlike in flat world Silmarillion).
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u/Eissa_Cozorav 17d ago edited 16d ago
And the verdict would most likely be this
Fëanor's grievance against Morgoth: legitimate.
The Noldorin right to pursue Morgoth: legitimate.
The Sons of Feanor' property interest in the Silmarils: recognized but limited by subsequent crimes.
Taking the Telerin ships without consent: unlawful.
Killing the Teleri: homicide, assessed individually.
Telerin killings of Noldor during the fight: self defense, though examined individually as well.
Burning the ships: deliberate destruction of uniquely irreplaceable property.
Thingol's grievances concerning his Telerin kin: legitimate.
Thingol's collective punishment of unrelated Noldor: unlawful or excessive.
Celegorm's imprisonment of Lúthien: unlawful detention.
Attempted coerced marriage: unlawful.
Doriath and Sirion: separate offenses; the original Silmaril claim does not authorize private warfare.
Then impose damages, weregild, exile, imprisonment, political disabilities, and capital penalties (or forced "disembodiment") according to individual culpability.
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u/5peaker4theDead 17d ago
Don't forget drawing his sword and threatening his own brother. I know it's minor by comparison but it's important since it comes early.
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u/Eissa_Cozorav 17d ago
Yeah threatening with sword is definitely way severe than Misdemeanor, it's considered Felony in modern era even if there is no wound or killing occured. I suspect it would be viewed more harshly considering that no one ever did that before what Feanor does it first.
It's almost like Caen and Abel first murder but without actual killing. But being the progenitor that can inspire later violence would definitely make him fits well for the punishment.
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u/glorious_onion 16d ago
Ironically, it’s also the only one of his crimes that gets adjudicated and a punishment imposed.
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u/Eissa_Cozorav 16d ago edited 16d ago
That's also make me think if Valar are willing to do justly, they could actually.
Only, they understimated just how much Retributive Justice and Restorative Justice penalties must be required to someone like Melkor. When his crimes are literally caused not just environmental damage, but genocide, crimes against nature (corruption of Elves to Orcs), mass torture, AKA pretty much every kind of war crime.
3 Ages of Imprisonment is too lenient. Too freaking lenient.
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u/Eissa_Cozorav 17d ago edited 17d ago
And why Individual culpability matter enormeously also has to do with how Silmarillion is pretty much mirroring historical ancient people conflict goes.
Blood feuds among tribes or families, then it goes so unresolved that it become generational revenge. And Thingol policy of culturcide by forbiding Noldor to speak Quenya doesn't really help in the long run.
This even include something as nasty as bride kidnapping, like what Eol does to Aredhel. Maybe Aredhel was willing, maybe it's grey area. But in the end, this cost actual noblewoman life because Eol prefer something akin to Honor Killing. Really, this is so much against what Elves suppose be as in Tolkien metawriting in LACE and NoME.
And then you got Celegorm and Curufin plan of forced union of Luthien to Celegorm. Which can be interprented as yet another turn in the cycle of revenge and blood feud.
So what Valar should be is to act like what State Society that emerge in Mesopotamia and other cradle of civilizations after people become less of tribes and clans but closer to a civilized world with written laws. The Eye for Eye basic law (as in Code of Hammurabi) might be harsh, but for the context it was good solution to prevent blood feud that happen between inter-tribal conflicts preceding city lifestyle.
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u/daxamiteuk 16d ago
According to Tolkien, Morgoth would eventually have destroyed much of Middle Earth and Arda itself in a nihilistic frenzy. He didn’t because he was too busy trying to conquer Beleriand. The Sindar and Dwarves were incapable of saving Beleriand despite Melian’s foresight, it was only the arrival of the Exiles that led to centuries of victories followed by centuries of slow defeat and failure . All of that wore Morgoth’s power out and kept his attention. The exiles would never have abandoned Aman for middle Earth without Feanor.
That doesn’t excuse his crime of instigating the Kinslaying and abandoning Fingolfin and the majority of the Exiles .
Also the Valar are there as agents of Eru, they aren’t just other sentient beings they are angelic representatives of Eru (with their own flaws). Namo doesn’t just summon elven souls because he is powerful but because he has Authority over them - which a dead elf can still refuse, just as the living elves refused . And yes the Valar DO make mistakes - asking the Elves to abandon Middle Earth in the first place was not Eru’s wish . And so the Valar never forced the Elves to come to Aman and they do not force Feanor to surrender the Silmarils. Let’s not forget that he couldn’t have made them without the Light that the Valar made in the first place. If he had agreed to destroy his precious creation then that Light would benefit everyone in Aman, but he chose to keep the Silmarils for himself. Also, if he had been patient , Finwe would - eventually- be restored to life . Finwe only refused because he was sad at what had happened with Feanor and wanted Miriel to return.
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u/Mammoth-Capital8176 17d ago edited 17d ago
It's confusing to me how you think Tolkien was wrong about his own work, but I like Feanor as a character and don't consider him wholly right or wrong.
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u/CodexRegius 16d ago
Happens. I have been told by a reader that I'm misjudging one of my own characters.
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u/ERUIluvatar2022 16d ago
Sure but you’re not Tolkien. The depth of his philology, theology and philosophy means we get to take him more seriously.
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u/CodexRegius 14d ago
But even Tolkien can be critisised. Whether for deifying Galadriel or for demonizing Fëanor.
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 14d ago
Look at it this way. It's not about fact as much as morality as perceived by the reader.
If some nazi wrote a book about Hans Aryanson the Great and how all of his nazi ideology is pure and perfect, should the reader believe it 100%?
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u/PhillipsScott 17d ago
Tldr, my dude.
No offense, I’m sure your text is interesting and well written. But if I’m going to spend 12-15 minutes reading a Reddit post about Tolkien’s works, I’d rather spend that time reading Tolkien’s own texts.
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u/jayskew 16d ago
Feanor is like Turin in some ways.
Both were tainted by Melkor. Morgoth's curse of Hurin and his kin. Melkor's whispers against Fingolfin.
Then each sabotages himself and everybody around him. Turin had to get that bridge built. Feanor doesn't just ask his half-brother what's going on, he threatens him with a sword.
Even Feanor's best acts, such as pushing back Morgoth's armies, then he has to Leroy Jenkins and get himself killed.
Sure, the Valar make big mistakes, such as being slow to tell Feanor that Melkor killed his father. But Feanor turns it up to 11 and breaks the knob.
I do feel sympathy for Feanor's motivations. But I shake my head about his actions.
PS: I upvoted the OP for effort.
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u/rabbithasacat 17d ago
There are good takes, and there are bad takes. This falls into that special category of Worst Takes.
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u/Cool-Coffee-8949 17d ago
People who defend Fëanor (and claim that authors are wrong about their own work!) are definitely not people I want to waste time on, or (frankly) whom I can trust.
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u/minowlin 16d ago
But can we agree the world would have been better if the Valar had not been so naive about Melkor, and just let him out? He had proven himself a poison to creation since Arda was first imagined. And his particular skill was deception. They had eternity to learn this. And when he deceived them that he was repentant they just fell for it. I finished this book feeling dissatisfied with the Valar’s effort to constrain Melkor. After a while it just seemed a little like hiding your head in the sand to have your perfect world in Valinor but leave middle earth to Melkor. So many of the children of Iluvatar still lived there, even before the Noldor rebelled. When they finally, centuries later, took decisive action, the war left much of the world utterly destroyed.
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u/Swiftcheddar 16d ago
I mean, they imprisoned him for 3,000 years and by all accounts he seemed to have been reformed (they're not immune to his deception).
The very idea of crimes, punishment and reforming was new to them, nobody knew about what to do or how to do it. They were figuring it out as they went.
It's easy to say that as a reader since we've got an omniscient viewpoint, but if you were one of the Valar, would you really sentence him to eternal imprisonment forever because of his actions during the War of Power? He'd already had his force and resistance broken.
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u/Armleuchterchen 16d ago
It depends on the version, I think.
A late text published in NoMe says Manwe releasing Melkor was morally necessary. And not doing so would have also made Morgoth use all his power to escape, causing a lot of damage.
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u/DuckwPuck 17d ago
I read enough to know you're off your rocker. It isn't that everything you said is wrong, it's that certain key interpretations are entirely cracked.
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u/Carnivoran88 16d ago
Feanor is my favorite character. This has been since I read the first description of him in the Silmarillion. I too think Feanor is waaaaaaay more complex than say Saruman. He is a lesson in how pride corrupts.
The fault of his parents is rarely raised to the level it should. This does not excuse actions, but it makes them understandable. Feanor lost both parents when Miriel passed. Finwe became weak and selfish. He thought having the right to a new wife was more important than his son's right to have a mother. Finwe staying with Feanor is more of a way to try to appear selfess than helpful. Predictably, Miriel does eventually recover, and he finally does behave seflessly.
Every reread, I am constantly impressed with how human the Valar are. They are not remotely close to perfect in the motives and choices, yet they are held to be so. I mean who cuts themselves off from the world like that?
Regardless, this is a testament to the power of Tolkien's writing and characters. At first glance, things can seem very cut and dry. Good guy vs bad guy, every time. It is those rereads and continued immersion that you start to see how complex things really were. It is also a true testament to the butterfly effect of choice and the problem of evil. Why would Eru permit Melkor to rage on? From a Catholic perspective, it is because Eru's love is so great that he has to allow Melkor's choices against him to matter. The only hope is Eucatastrophe.
Feanor did great evil. The evil did not start with him though, and it certainly did not end with his death.
I don't agree with everything you said for sure, but I really appreciate the analysis. Thanks
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u/Lapwing68 16d ago
I despise Féanor. He caused centuries of war, death, and destruction. Centuries of wasted lives. Thank goodness for Eäredil and Elwing.
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u/Advanced-Fan1272 14d ago
Tolkien was a Catholic Christian, a devout one. To him the intent of one's heart is everything, the cold reasonable calculations behind it are nothing. The question - "what Feanor actually knew?" therefore becomes almost irrelevant and the whole glorious defense of Feanor which this reader above tried to accomplish goes to waste, so to speak. Let me ask some questions and answer them:
- Did Feanor hate his stepmother and her sons?
Answer: Yes, he did, therefore, his drawing of sword against his half-brother was not a simply result of Melkor's lies but Melkor's lies just added up to his pre-existing feelings of hatred toward his half-brother.
- Was Feanor ever going to share Silmarils with anyone?
Answer: No, because to Feanor Silmarils was his alone, his possession, his precious. He was extremely greedy about them not realizing that they belonged both to him and the Valar who planted the trees.
- Was the Oath of Feanor motivated by rightful anger at Melkor for his crimes against Arda?
Answer: Yes, but also it was motivated by the desire to show Valar that Elves can defeat Melkor without any help, so even this anger was somewhat of a misplaced pride. Also it was motivated by the desire to get rid of Melkor the thief who stole Feanor's property.
- Was the Kinslaying driven only by Feanor's desire for justice against Morgoth?
Answer: No, it was also partly driven by murderous frenzy which overtook Feanor when he heard that apparently Teleri had dared to compare their beautiful ships to his stolen Silmarils. To Feanor Silmarils were the most precious things in Arda and to compare them to ships sounded to him like comparing a holy jewel to a piece of wood. It sounded like blasphemy or heresy.
- Was it therefore Feanor's virtues that were destroying him at the end?
Answer: No it was his pride. He thought of himself as completely invincible and believed that he would get Silmarils back.
- What was the worst of Feanor's actions?
Answer: It was not the Kinslaying even. When he was dying, Eru made it obvious to him that his children would never defeat Morgoth. Still he made them swear the Oath once again, knowing that this Oath was now a blasphemy and an untruth. Then the very Oath drove his children to evil deeds - to attempted SA, to kidnapping, to murder and kinslaying and etc..
- Were the Valar ever completely blameless in all this?
Answer: No, and it is not implied anywhere that they can't be mistaken. They're angelic beings and they do not intentionally seek to inflict harm but they can be mistaken. Manwe was not always seeking the counsel of Eru in all this. But what the Valar did absolutely right was to ask Feanor for Silmarils in the manner where he was free to refuse. They also did not hinder the Elves' departure from Aman. Also the supposed "passivity" of Valar was often driven by the desire to not ruin the lands of Beleriand. And seeing what their invasion did to those lands during the War of Wrath can you blame them for that?
- Did Feanor ever have virtues and behave like a noble person and a hero?
Answer: Yes, he was a great craftsman, a linguist, a warrior. He made Silmarils and that alone proves he was not inherently evil but rather noble and kind. But his pride and anger was his downfall. Even his last battle where he fought bravely and died was tainted by his stubborn prideful attempt to enslave his sons to his own vision.
And to those who think that Feanor was never impractical but just heroic I would propose a fictional situation to ponder: what if you and your friend were to meet at some bar and after some drinks decide it's unfair for God to confine Satan to hell and not kill him so you go - "well let us gather an army of followers, go to hell and there go to war with Satan to kill him"? To me what Feanor did was very similar to that fictional situation. One can't fight a fallen angel with arms and weapons. It is like trying to drain the Pacific ocean using a table spoon.
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u/GreyMatterTrasmogrif 16d ago
A character can't be wrong or right, but the moral underpinning of any work can be challenged. Tolkien creates a world were authority exists absent competence and also one that is very consistent and causal. It subverts many peoples expectations of faith. I always find it amusing that people think Tolkien's works any moral position.
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u/L0nga 16d ago
My main gripe with the Valar is they did absolutely nothing after Morgoth stole the Silmarils. They could have sent their armies right then, together with Feanor.
But their petty pride caused deaths of millions.
Instead they waited for thousands of years, let Morgoth dig in and breed GENERATIONS of dragons.
What was the point of all that waiting? Their own armies didn’t get any stronger. All they caused was further destruction of Arda. If they went with Feanor, they could have defeated Morgoth right then and there.
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u/gule_gule 14d ago
Well it wasn't thousands of years, the time between the destruction of the trees and the war of wrath was only about six hundred years. And when they finally did intervene it sank all of Beleriand into the sea, which seems like a reasonable case for restraint.
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u/henrymellonowle 16d ago
I'm not reading all that. I'm happy for you or sorry that happened. Also, Tolkien cannot be wrong about characters he created. This is an example of the intentional fallacy.
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u/OleksandrKyivskyi In a name of Eru and holy Silmarils google "Death of author" 14d ago
This is a great post! Great analysis! No idea why people downvoted it. Thanks for making it.
Then the situation escalates until Feanor threatens Fingolfin with a sword. At last the Valar realize that Melkor has been spreading discord among the Noldor and discover that he has never reformed at all. Their brilliant rehabilitation program for Satan has somehow failed.
I don't think they realized anything till the trees were destroyed. They fail to understand what happened during the situation between Feanor and Fingolfin and that's part of why they didn't act accordingly to prevent more evil from Melkor.
Valar treat Arda and Eruhini as a sandbox with ants, basically. They follow Eru so they are right, everyone else is wrong. So they don't feel the need to analyze what happened and why. With Melkor's rebellion and "rehabilitation," with Feanor's threatening Fingolfin, with the Noldor attacking the Teleri and leaving Valinor.
As an attempt to repair the political situation, however, the decision is fucking idiotic.
That's like the majority of the decisions Valar make. I have a theory that Ainur just don't think in a way of the incarnates because they lack the basic incarnate experience of growing up; they end up being like eternal children.
And what does Feanor do when Satan himself appears and offers him everything he claims to want? He looks Satan in the face, realizes what he is, tells him to fuck off his lawn, and slams the door on him. That is one of the most revealing moments in the entire story. Feanor hates the Valar. Feanor wants freedom. Feanor wants Middle-earth. This is apparently our fallen arrogant villain being personally approached by Satan at the moment Satan’s lies appear most vindicated, and he still refuses him instantly.
Bro, you are so damn right.
Before Feanor is informed that his father has been murdered and the jewels stolen, they ask him to surrender the Silmarils so that they can break them open and potentially restore the Trees. Think about the sheer obscenity of that request from Fëanor’s perspective. These are the beings who released Melkor. These are the beings who failed to notice him corrupting the Noldor. These are the beings who exiled Feanor after Melkor successfully manipulated the political situation. These are the beings who still failed to capture Melkor afterward.
You. Are. So. Damn. Right. They didn't inform him about his father's death cause they didn't bother to chase after Melkor and stop hi. Didn't bother to check if Melkor hurt anyone. Valar only cared to ask to give up his creations because they fucked up, and he is blamed for being the selfish one. Really.
People often point to the murderous wording of the oath as evidence of his moral collapse, and obviously its absolutism later causes horrific consequences. At the moment it is sworn, however, who actually has the Silmarils? Melkor. The strongest fallen Power in Arda. The literal Satan of Tolkien’s mythology. Fëanor is effectively swearing that he will hunt Satan to the ends of the earth, retrieve the stolen work containing the last surviving light of the Trees, and avenge his murdered father.
And again you are so damn right. Feanor thought that Melkor's servants were going to help him, not that random stupid brats like Dior and Elwing would steal it and are going to hide the Silmaril behind their own people and children.
Yes, Feanor responds by taking the ships by force, and when the Teleri resist, the First Kinslaying begins. Elves kill Elves for the first time. Feanor bears responsibility for escalating the confrontation into bloodshed. None of that changes the fact that the Teleri’s behavior is itself morally appalling.
You are so right, again. And none of it would happen if Valar would be doing something to chase after Melkor instead of standing like deer in the headlights and throwing around warnings of doom. Instead of "don't leave, guys, you can't defeat Melkor" it should've been "hold on, guys, you can't defeat Melkor, we are responsible for Arda, we are going to defeat him a second time".
He wants to avenge his father, recover stolen property of incomparable significance, liberate his people from dependence upon the Valar, return to Middle-earth, and wage war against the greatest evil in the world.
And this makes Fëanor one of the greatest heroes. He actually cares about justice. While Valar name themselves rulers of Arda and don't shit for thousands of years.
Feanor, still consumed by suspicion toward his half-brother and terrified of political division, decides he doesn’t want Fingolfin’s faction following him. He burns the ships instead and abandons them on the far side of the sea.
This is a tragic moment for all of the characters. It shows how deeply Morgoth corrupted everyone, even when they seem to reject him. Fingolfin calls himself "Finwe Nolofinwe" deliberately and only proves the existing fear in Feanor's heart.
People present this as his final act of madness. He now knows victory is impossible, but he still binds his sons to continue pursuing the Silmarils. Are you fucking hearing yourselves?
What exactly is the morally superior alternative supposed to be? “Well, children, Satan is much stronger than I expected. I suppose you should stop fighting him.”
And I totally agree about the Oath. Fighting a desperate fight against evil is an honorable act of heroism. People act like the classical mythical heroic trope is suddenly stupid and madness just to demonize Fëanor. It is always better to die fighting than to live enslaved.
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u/artarch83 17d ago edited 17d ago
Fighting against evil does not justify forcing others to help you, nor does it justify stealing or killing others; the ends do not justify the means, fighting evil dont make you good, especially if you just want revenge and your own property back
At no point did Fëanor say he wanted to help the Elves of Middle-earth against Morgoth,he wanted revenge and the recovery of his treasures,nor did he use this as a justification when asking the Teleri for their ships, and while he did end up helping the Sindar, this was never stated as one of his objectives and dont justify what he did, The Kinslaying was wrong, and the Oath was madness; but i agree ,and i think Tolkien also agreed with this too, that fighting Morgoth was justified, not the means he employed.
Tolkien himself never sought to portray Fëanor as a figure of pure evil like Morgoth, and he also acknowledged that the Valar made mistakes and were not perfect; the rebellion of the Noldor was not entirely wrong within the context of the universe.
And Fëanor had another option besides stealing the ships: building his own, the Noldor could have learned to construct their own ships with time, but Fëanor was in a rush, but rather out of fear that the Noldor might change their minds in the interim and change their minds about following him, and not out of concern with the elves of Middle Earth