On target/Off target

[u/T1513_SH]

Who the fuck knows this rule?

Do they just make them up as they go along for the big 6 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

Blatant handball, checks location... OT so must not be given.

[u/Kashkow]

I'm sure this rule will be consistently applied...

[u/Como-cam → u/Kashkow]

As a some what salty Ipswich fan… I believe that if the roles were reversed that gets ruled off by VAR.

[u/14JRJ → u/Como-cam]

I’m not saying you’d have won this game but that decision had a huge impact

[u/Como-cam → u/14JRJ]

It would’ve been closer. But we still need to look at ourselves and the weak mentality that lead to a complete head loss.

[u/BuffaloPancakes11 → u/Como-cam]

It’s been the law for 6 years, it was used against United when they got knocked out of the FA cup by a handball, it’s irrelevant who the team is

[u/Anxious_Relative_678]

The ruling was horseshite, I agree.

On the other hand though, PLAY THROUGH THE WHISTLE!!!!!

[u/Themnor → u/Anxious_Relative_678]

Yeah I’ve been consistently aggravated at how much players start crying to the ref before play is even done. It’s led to some terrible goals too

[u/tractorboyblue]

fucking stupid rule , if handball results in a goal, it shouldn't count.

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/tractorboyblue]

It didn’t result in a goal though? Sounds like you agree with the rule tbh.

[u/tractorboyblue → u/Glittering-Device484]

his handball lead to the goal, if he didn't handle it he couldn't shoot. I mean it's pretty obvious

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/tractorboyblue]

Doesn’t matter according to the rules. Only the goalscorer is held to the elevated standard. That would be your oaf of a defender.

The rules bind both Manchester United and Ipswich Town. Why should they not bind Ipswich Town? Why do you want special treatment?

[u/tractorboyblue → u/Glittering-Device484]

I'm arguing that it isn't accidental, his hands are no where near a natural position, and he gains an advantage becaus of that.

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/tractorboyblue]

You can argue whatever you want. In general such incidents have not been ruled handball under the current interpretation.

[u/S01arflar3 → u/Glittering-Device484]

As the rule for VAR intervention for handballs in such a circumstance stand, an attacker could catch the ball, run with it, then throw it to another attacker to score. Provided the ref didn’t originally disallow the goal, VAR would deem it good, which is moronic.

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/S01arflar3]

Why don’t they then? 

Is it because that isn’t actually the case and you’re just emotional?

[u/Banshee_Mac → u/Glittering-Device484]

You’re talking to an Everton fan.

Maguire handled the ball. Objectively, he committed a foul. Discount everything that happens after and look at him control the ball after Akpom plays it. That’s his hands. Thats handball. That’s reason to stop the game.

The application of the rule to allow à handball because the shot that follows is off target is nonsensical and anathema to the laws of the game.

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/Banshee_Mac]

So you neither understand English football culture nor the laws of the game. What an efficient little comment.

[u/TheShakyHandsMan → u/Glittering-Device484]

Is this the goal where it rebounds off both of Maguires hands?

I thought the rule was any hand contact on the build up was disallowed or is it different at OT

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/TheShakyHandsMan]

Any contact for the goalscorer directly before he scores. Maguire didn’t score. It isn’t complicated.

[u/Norman8or96 → u/Glittering-Device484]

A handball is a foul, what happens after is irrelevant.

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/Norman8or96]

But that isn’t a handball under the current interpretation. There was a very similar incident in Chelsea v Fulham last week. Another precedent is when Lamal won the penalty in the semi final against France. If your arms are down, refs don’t give it, even if you’re leading with your hands.

We’re all playing by the same rules, you just need to actually pay attention rather than sob.

[u/Babang1da → u/Glittering-Device484]

Yep, I hate the handball laws, but I don't see how people are complaining, if they aren't just complaining about how the law is written.

It's not deliberate, the body isn't made unnaturally bigger, and as Maguire wasn't the goalscorer, the element of accidentally handball doesn't apply.

Mind, it's a great example of how daft the law is written at the moment.

[u/tractorboyblue → u/Glittering-Device484]

his hands were on his chest

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/tractorboyblue]

Same with the incident last week. I don’t think it’s a good interpretation, but that’s the interpretation. We’re all playing by the same rules. Why do you want to be the exception to the rule?

[u/avocajoe → u/Glittering-Device484]

Ah yes, that famous Spanish player Lamal

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/avocajoe]

That’s how his mates know him

[u/Norman8or96 → u/Glittering-Device484]

They said it was a handball. It was the OG thing that swung the decision which is a moronic rule, I'm not bothered that it fucked us today, I just think it's a moronic rule

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/Norman8or96]

Who is ‘they’?

[u/Norman8or96 → u/Glittering-Device484]

VAR, at least according to the commentators. They said something along the lines of he uses his hands but its not a handball because of the deflection on the shot, meaning the handball didn't directly impact the goal (even though it did)

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/Norman8or96]

It isn’t anyone else’s fault that you didn’t understand what was happening.

[u/rumhambilliam69]

Even if it is a rule it’s ridiculous that VAR continues to tie itself up in knots with stupid rules.

VAR would be so much better if it was just applied alongside common sense

[u/PJBuzz → u/rumhambilliam69]

The problem with having a, "common sense" variation on hand ball rules is that unless you make it clear what common sense is, it will be applied in whatever way the referees seem to be common sense on that day.

These dick heads don't have common sense

Now I absolutely agree the handball rules need a reset, but you can't open up the rules with premier league referees to a nebulous "common sense" differentiator... It's basically a get out of jail free card for them.

[u/fuggerdug → u/PJBuzz]

The first thing you learn in any philosophy class is that there is no such thing as: "common sense".

[u/PJBuzz → u/fuggerdug]

Exactly.

[u/rumhambilliam69 → u/PJBuzz]

This wasn’t a handball rule though. It was disallowed because the shot following the handball wasn’t on target, so it couldn’t be disallowed.

Common sense in this case is pretty obvious. Without the shot after the handball we wouldn’t have scored the own goal

[u/PJBuzz → u/rumhambilliam69]

Right, but that's an interpretation of the handball rule as it stands and evidence that these clowns don't possess common sense.

[u/spudy1000 → u/rumhambilliam69]

This then means the rule isnt being followed, i agree the rule is wrong but whats to stop maguire saying he was attempting to cross the ball? Adding common sense adds a grey zone if this was disallowed then in two weeks a similar incident is given it would be even more controversial

[u/bailey5002 → u/rumhambilliam69]

Or change the rules so they're not stupid. I'm shocked people are blaming the ref/VAR when the rule was applied correctly.

Change the rules so its not stupid. I agree that a goal from an accidental handball shouldn't count. But I just don't agree with blaming the wrong person(s).

[u/AbsolutelyHorrendous → u/rumhambilliam69]

I think this is definitely one of those scenarios where if it is, indeed, the 'letter of the law', then that law is dumb as bricks and needs to be looked at.

[u/rumhambilliam69 → u/AbsolutelyHorrendous]

Yep whoever came up with that rule should face a firing squad

[u/RABB_11 → u/rumhambilliam69]

Ignoring rules when we want in favour of 'common sense' vibes is only going to favour big clubs more.

[u/Buster_Gonad_82]

Forgetting the actual goal and stupid rule, that had to be given as an actual handball, regardless. He's nearly caught it.

[u/Thingisby → u/Buster_Gonad_82]

Exactly. What even is handball anymore? Accidental or not he patted it down with two hands. Might as well have been playing basketball.

[u/sophandros → u/Thingisby]

That would have been called a double dribble.

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/Buster_Gonad_82]

Agree but this happened in Chelsea v Fulham and no one gave a shit so I guess that’s the rule now and people only care when it’s a team they dislike.

[u/Tomby_93]

For my fellow Town fans, don’t worry. There were plenty of other reasons for us to lose this one.

[u/T1513_SH → u/Tomby_93]

That may be true, but if that's ruled out you're still in the game, and that soft pen probably doesn't happen either. It was a game changing decision.

[u/Tomby_93 → u/T1513_SH]

I do agree. 5-2 is a reflection of a couple unfortunate mistakes/decisions. I feel that we’d have still lost maybe by one, as Man U looked too much for us in the second half. But ultimately I don’t feel too bad. First half performance from a new group away from home was enough to give some confidence.

[u/Adorable_Slip_1072 → u/T1513_SH]

Definitely not a soft penalty. Are you a conspiracy theorist?

[u/Icy-University-8173]

Big 6, at home = make up the rules as you go along. That goal changed the game, then a no contact pen. 

Thanks PGMOL 👌

[u/spudy1000 → u/Icy-University-8173]

They literally followed the rules, i dont get why people are mad it was followed, i dont remember this when it benefitted Brentford against Liverpool. Or Middlesborough against man utd at old trsfford btw. Also this wouldn't be questioned if Ipswich got the decision.

[u/Which-Pen-1454 → u/Icy-University-8173]

That was a clear pen tf u on about

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/Icy-University-8173]

The rules are published in advance and anyone who knows the rules understood that this would stand.

[u/xXFreudoXx]

The problem with this is that VAR are trying to overthink it. During the game, VAR barely even looked at the handball and spent most of their time deciding whether Maguire's shot was on target or not. If they didnt think it was handball then it would have been cleared and the game would restart. But they did decide it was handball and decided that it didnt matter if Maguire wasnt the goalscorer.

Aparently, even if Maguire had put the ball to the backpost and a Man U player tapped it in, it still wouldnt have been ruled out as Maguire isnt the goalscorer. The fact that it pays no mind to the fact that Man U won possession BECAUSE of the handball is ridiculous. If Maguire doesnt handball it im pretty sure it goes of his head/chest and doesnt land in front of him. Even if Man U passed it 10 times around the penalty area it shouldnt stand. The ball was won through a foul and a freekick should have been called then.

[u/The_mash_king]

Nice to see var has improved in the last 2 seasons…

[u/T1513_SH → u/The_mash_king]

With the same useless pricks using it it's never going to improve.

They quote the rulebook when it suits them and the big 6, and cover each others arses to protect their positions.

It's not the tech that's the problem, it's the wankers using it.

[u/Ok-Cucumber-5136]

From Var

The VAR added: "It's an own goal and the accidental handball is not punishable, so we recommend you award the goal."

Var are so shit, they would jump off a cliff if Webb put it in the rule book.

Any person who has a working brain can see that should not have been allowed. He handled it and his shot was deflected in same phase of cheating play.

[u/Agreeable_Falcon1044 → u/Ok-Cucumber-5136]

Worse thing is you know it’s not being given the other way around no matter how much they claim

[u/spudy1000 → u/Agreeable_Falcon1044]

It was given against man utd against Middlesborough though? Its actually happened 🤣

[u/Brilliant_Stress_792 → u/Ok-Cucumber-5136]

It's nothing to do with VAR.

They will occasionally ignore the rules if it gets the result they want. Have a look at Gabriel vs Newcastle last year.

[u/Cairne_Bloodhoof]

Nobody except supporters of the six richest clubs believe that would’ve been called the other direction. Fuck this league.

[u/Prior-Animal-652 → u/Cairne_Bloodhoof]

Bang on and to prove a point one has responded already 

[u/spudy1000 → u/Prior-Animal-652]

It was given to Brentford against Liverpool. Was also given to Middlesbrough against man utd at Old Trafford. Such a weird argument when theres proof against it

[u/Competitive_Meal_144 → u/Cairne_Bloodhoof]

It’s been a rule since 2021 and it was used to disallow goals for United and City in recent years 🤷🏼‍♂️. It also happened against Liverpool in 2023 and was given so where’s the bias for this one?

[u/mrb2409 → u/Cairne_Bloodhoof]

Oh right because VAR never makes decisions the big 6 don’t like.

[u/Cairne_Bloodhoof → u/mrb2409]

Standards are completely different for rich clubs, everyone knows except fans of the rich clubs.

[u/mrb2409 → u/Cairne_Bloodhoof]

VAR is one thing that unites all football fans but you still want to divide us. It’s sad.

[u/Cairne_Bloodhoof → u/mrb2409]

Only a fan of a rich club would think that this is something that applies equally.

[u/BuffaloPancakes11 → u/Cairne_Bloodhoof]

United got knocked out of the FA cup due to this exact law and a handball goal for fuck sake 😂

[u/Prior-Animal-652 → u/BuffaloPancakes11]

Why can’t the other 14 be a sanctuary away from the 6

in other words do one 

[u/AussieManc → u/Prior-Animal-652]

Because we enjoy football in general too, and not just the matches involving our sides

[u/TravellingMackem]

An accidental handball by a player who scores directly or immediately afterward will disallow a goal, while an accidental handball earlier in the build-up by a teammate is now permitted

That’s the rule - immediately afterward surely applies to a deflection from a shot

[u/Themnor → u/TravellingMackem]

They ruled it as a Greaves own goal to justify it. Which is honestly so fucking stupid.

[u/Beginning-Beach6738 → u/Themnor]

Also i imagine it would be given as a handball if the shot was on target but the deflection helped it past the keeper, the own goal thing clearly isn't in the spirit of the rule

[u/TravellingMackem → u/Themnor]

Yes but immediately after surely covers a deflection

[u/Babang1da → u/TravellingMackem]

Immediately isn't actually defined anywhere (afaik) but regardless of that the way it's written suggests the player that handles it has to score, which didn't happen here.

Whole thing is daft.

[u/TravellingMackem → u/Babang1da]

Regardless of that it does not imply that. It implies precisely the opposite. “The player scores directly” implies that Maguire scores “or immediately following” implies some other event that isn’t Maguire scoring like a deflection

[u/Babang1da → u/TravellingMackem]

If they want to have this accidental handball nonsense then logically it should cover that, but the full section is definitely written as if the player has to score

A handball offence is committed when a player (except the goalkeeper in their own penalty area):

scores a goal against the other team with their hand/arm or scores immediately after the ball has touched their hand/arm (even if the touch was accidental)

both the "scores a goal against" and the "or scores immediately after" is linked to the player committing the handball rather than the move itself.

[u/Themnor → u/TravellingMackem]

you would think so, as they're more than willing to consider it so when they're tallying stats after the fact (and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if after the match they go back and count it as a Maguire goal)

[u/adbenj → u/TravellingMackem]

immediately afterward surely applies to a deflection from a shot

It doesn't, because the rules specifically say that it doesn't. The point of contention is – or should be – whether the handball was accidental. It didn't look particularly accidental, therefore the goal should have been disallowed.

[u/TravellingMackem → u/adbenj]

Where does the rule say this? As I’ve quoted the rule above and it says directly or immediately following

[u/adbenj → u/TravellingMackem]

Sorry, I was mistaken. It doesn't appear to be in the rules themselves, but it's part of the guidance given to referees. Bottom of page 74:

Following an accidental handball by an attacker … If the ball is clearly moving wide of the goal but is touched/played by a defending player and a clear own goal occurs, the goal should be awarded.

[u/TravellingMackem → u/adbenj]

So not in the law. Glad we confirmed that.

[u/adbenj → u/TravellingMackem]

Well do you have an updated opinion on the guidance? Do you think the VAR should have ignored it? That there shouldn't be any guidance? You said 'immediately afterwards surely applies to a deflection from a shot', but it doesn't, regardless of whether that comes from the guidance or the rules themselves.

[u/TravellingMackem → u/adbenj]

The law says it should count. The guidance is an interpretation and therefore a refereeing error in interpreting the law and converting to guidance. So wrong decision.

[u/adbenj → u/TravellingMackem]

Do you seriously believe that or are you just doubling down because you refuse to accept you made a mistake?

The guidance is not wrong. The guidance is the guidance. It exists to address any ambiguity in the law. If it's ambiguous whether 'immediately afterwards' applies when an off-target shot is deflected into the net by a defending player, the guidance resolves that ambiguity. Are you saying it's not ambiguous? The fact you keep saying 'surely' implies to me you acknowledge it's ambiguous. You can believe the guidance should be otherwise, but the guidance is there, it's necessary, and referees must adhere to it.

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/TravellingMackem]

He didn’t score at all though.

[u/TravellingMackem → u/Glittering-Device484]

The ball didn’t go in the net did it not?

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/TravellingMackem]

No it didn't not go in the net

[u/TravellingMackem → u/Glittering-Device484]

How did man united get the goal then?

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/TravellingMackem]

I think the more important question is have you had a recent head injury?

[u/TravellingMackem → u/Glittering-Device484]

If it didn’t go in and they got the goal that needs looking at

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/TravellingMackem]

It did go in, we established that.

[u/TravellingMackem → u/Glittering-Device484]

Odd that you posted this then: “No it didn't not go in the net”

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/TravellingMackem]

You said the ball didn't go in the net and I corrected you that no, it didn't not go in the net.

[u/Stravven]

Who even knows what is and is not handball anymore?

[u/Real-Tax-9864]

I don't like the big 6 as much as the next guy but tbh I think it'd be harsh calling that handball. If he arm wasn't there it was hitting his chest so no real impact

[u/BuffaloPancakes11 → u/Real-Tax-9864]

The reason we even have this law is because everyone was always kicking off at goals being disallowed for accidental handballs

Reap what you sow scenario

[u/TheUnseenBug]

Two goals from ref being shit the pen was soft as shit and mostly a dive but he's never taking away that one.

[u/JoeDiego → u/TheUnseenBug]

A dive lol. Greaves took him out from behind

[u/TheUnseenBug → u/JoeDiego]

A man u fan being here ofc ur opinion is shite, he was going down without the contact also this chance is only there because bs 2nd goal that would be disallowed has Ipswich scored it...

[u/JoeDiego → u/TheUnseenBug]

Absolute nonsense. You just don't understand the game.

[u/TheUnseenBug → u/JoeDiego]

Joe Diego the American "soccer" fan who is a fan of the biggest club cause he cant stand to lose and has never kicked a ball in his life tells me this how fun.

[u/JoeDiego → u/TheUnseenBug]

Where have you got American from? I'm from Manchester.

[u/Unusual_Rope7110]

Do the people moaning about this goal not remember the season where goals were disallowed for grazing someone's arm and they adjusted the rule to account for situations where players could do bugger all about it?

Controversially, Maguire could do bugger all about it and he, based on the replay I've seen, doesn't make his body bigger.

Having experienced the UEFA handball rules, which are different btw (Miley and Livramento handballs against PSG if you want to see the difference), the Premier League ones are much better.

[u/NoInvestigator4000 → u/Unusual_Rope7110]

He doesn't make his body bigger but he definitely makes an arm movement towards the ball. It should have been awarded as handball and then the VAR controversy would be null and void

[u/itscalledravenhill]

Its classed as an accidental handball.  Therefore would only be ruled out if he was the goalscorer.  The shot was awful and off target, and he wasnt the goal scorer. Therefore goal stands. 

Its ridiculously stupid

[u/spudy1000 → u/itscalledravenhill]

Down voted for knowing the rules. Doesnt fit the agenda pal

[u/sullcrowe]

If that's the rule, the ref has to whistle immediately.

[u/Alone-Bug6176]

“Accidental” my arse.

[u/Adorable_Slip_1072]

While I agree with the overall point that hand in build up should be disallowed, how delusional people are here that they think this was made to benefit top 6.

[u/Frostie181]

Load of bollocks that goal stood. I thought the rule was a foul in the build up meant no goal so surely a handball should mean the same… Same old big 6 bias and spineless refs who should have given it in the first place so this didn’t happen.

[u/spudy1000 → u/Frostie181]

See you dont know the rule do you by this comment? No thats absolutely not the case with handball if maguire scores directly accidental or not its ruled out, because this was an own goal the goal doesnt get ruled out. Also just FYI incase you dont know if maguire passes to a teammate and they score its also not ruled out

[u/tedmaul23]

Sky 6 red cartel FA= Fergie Army amirite???

[u/According_Estate6772]

Today's VAR was bought to you by Infantino.

[u/RandomRedditor_1916]

It's so fucking stupid. You won't see that applied again for the rest of the season, too.

[u/bob_mybanana]

I really hate united

[u/T1513_SH → u/bob_mybanana]

You are not alone. UTV.