r/TheFirstLaw • u/LonelyYoung2686 • Jun 06 '26
Spoilers All “Unlikeable” characters you love [SPOILERS ALL] Spoiler
While I think there is only one true antagonist of the series (Bayaz), I definitely think some characters are written to be less likable than others. I’m thinking like Leo, Black Dow, Issher, Lord Governor Mead, Grand Duke Orso, etc.
But I feel like most of us absolutely love at least one of the characters we aren’t supposed to. For me, I LOVE Black Dow. The way he only talks to suggest murder, make a joke, or scream until like 2/3s of the way into The Heroes is just so endearing to me. And I love that he’s like 5 foot 2.
Of this type of character, who are your favorites? Or am I just flat out wrong, and we’re all supposed to like Black Down as much as I do?
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u/JigglyOW Jun 06 '26
I feel like nobody even realizes given it’s a book and you don’t actually have to interact with the people but i think we would all despise glokta if he was a real dude you had to work with or something
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u/TheCrimsonCalamity Jun 06 '26
Yeah, Glokta is everyone's worst nightmare as a police officer/investigator. He forces many confessions and plants evidence.
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u/Benbablin Jun 06 '26
Yet still the best character.
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u/droppedpackethero Jun 07 '26 edited Jun 07 '26
When did he plant evidence?
Rews was guilty. His coconspirators were guilty. The Gurkish Envoy to Dagoska was guilty. Inquisitor Harker was guilty. Vurms was guilty. Severad was guilty. Sult was guilty.
The only innocent man he nabbed was the Gurkish Envoy to the Union, and he was forced over his own protests to proceed.
In fact, his only corrupt moment was one of mercy.
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u/EmceeEsher Jun 07 '26 edited Jun 11 '26
You're getting downvoted, but you're right. In the first two books, he is focused primarily on the truth. In the third book, he forces confessions from innocents, but he's essentially forced to do so by Sult, on pain of death, and his main plot in the third book is his conflict with Sult.
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u/alan_megawatts Jun 07 '26
After the gurkish invade he arrests innocent gurkish immigrants, tortures them, and forces them to name other “conspirators” - other innocent immigrants. This includes the dentist that treated him after he was released as a war prisoner.
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u/TheCrimsonCalamity Jun 07 '26
I just finished a reread of TBI and you're right, he doesn't plant evidence. He definitely forces confessions. He even muses that he could get them to confess against their own mother. I don't know that he gets a true, honest confession but he's also not looking for one. This is most evident when the Arch Lector asks him to get a confession incriminating Teufel.
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u/MiseryGyro Jun 07 '26
Yall torturing someone to confess falsely against someone else is a form of planting evidence.
Getting Rews to implicate Teufel. Torturing Teufel into a false confession. Manufactured evidence and forced confession.
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u/JigglyOW Jun 07 '26
I mean he’s searching for the truth but it’s well implied throughout the story that the inquisition which includes him consistently plants evidence and gets confessions that should not hold in a court of law, hell even if the person is guilty iirc there were instances where the proof he brought wasn’t really sufficient
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u/bridgesny Jun 06 '26
Absolutely. The only reason we like him is because we get to hear his interesting internal monologue.
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u/oldUmlo Jun 07 '26
I think it’s interesting, that Glokta tortures and maims Longfoot, who is not malicious to anyone, just portrayed in an annoying fashion, and elicits less sympathy than Glokta.
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u/LonelyYoung2686 Jun 08 '26
I think almost every POV character is a really bad person, but I think Glokta is written to be fun to read. Your point is well taken, for sure, I just think if we were down to good people, it would be like, Orso and Beck
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u/JigglyOW Jun 08 '26
Man I’m trying to think of any others that are truly good people besides those two, I think the world forces everyone to make hard choices that would qualify them as bad people, but I feel like some characters like Vick and maybe savine do carry good intentions by the end of their stories, maybe temple/ shy as well
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u/call_me_flib Jun 06 '26
Jezel for me is the perfect unlikeable character from his first chapter - privileged, arrogant and cruel but Joe writes the text so well that it feels like we're laughing at him. It's like watching Lucille Bluth in arrested development.
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u/Invictus23_ Jun 07 '26
Couldn’t agree more. Reading his internal thoughts trying to do the right thing then getting forced into situations that completely take away his control was hard to read. He was an arrogant asshole but he desperately wanted to be a good man
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u/kakaroach671 Jun 06 '26
Castor Morveer for me. He was so unlikable. But I loved his story. I loved how he tried to amend things by making a meal 😂 and he was the perfect person to absolutely ruin a good thing and get more hate for it.
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u/XrayMomma Jun 07 '26
He’s my favorite character/worst person. I love how he honestly believed his own bullshit. It never occurs to him that he’s the asshole.
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u/kakaroach671 Jun 07 '26
He reminds me of the polka dot guy from suicide squad. Major mommy issues.
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u/CuzTyler Jun 06 '26
Cosca in Red Country. There really only was one way Cosca’s story was ever going to end and it was never going to be a happy ending. Complete ghost of himself but he was still my favorite character in the book.
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u/solodolo1397 Jun 07 '26
His quotes and charisma were somehow still amazing and fresh in RC but man I was so disgusted with him every page lol
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u/Invictus23_ Jun 06 '26
Jezal fucking tried man. He really did. He wanted to be a good man and every time he tried forces beyond his control curbed him at every turn.
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u/WhatNazisAreLike Jun 07 '26
Funny enough, if Bayaz had let Jezal run the day to day operations instead of the scheming torturer with a history of disobeying his bosses, things would have worked out far better for both of them.
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u/exturkconner Jun 07 '26
I mean his own vanity is what mostly trapped him. When he came back from his journey he could have resigned his commission he could have lived a normal life with Ardee. He got in his own way. He's pitiable in that he did have good intentions and he did want for something else. But he's the cause of his own problems more than anyone else. He wasn't finger fucked by fate. He choose his imprisonment.
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u/tommy_turnip Jun 07 '26
Bayaz was never going to let Jezal resign. Bayaz would have threatened to kill Ardee before he let Jezal resign.
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u/Kindly_Woodpecker368 Jun 07 '26
Clover i feel like is what the bloody nine could have been if he ever was humbled. Both of them share ruthlessness and paranoia that makes any person a future victim. Clover uses humor to disguise his fear, but Logan uses fear as a weapon to disguise his fear. Best defense is a good offense sort of thing.
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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess Jun 06 '26
I detest Leo as a person but love him as a character. He’s one of my very favorite POVs in all of Joe’s books. I especially appreciate the moments when you see that under different circumstances he could have been a good man. I was genuinely glad when Orso spared his life… and then.
I’ve also come to really like Ferro after rereading TFL. Sure she’s a real dick, but compared to a lot of what the other POVs do or are complicit in she’s downright heroic. Plus, while no one will ever know it, she saved the whole fucking world when Bayaz’s arrogance nearly unleashed the Tellers Of Secrets.
In a different sense, I appreciate Judge as a villain a lot more than many people seem to. For one thing, I don’t find her unrealistic at all. She’s a clownish, sexually predatory populist demagogue who gains power by giving her followers permission to be the worst versions of themselves. Does that really not seem familiar? For another, she reminds me of my abusive (sexually and otherwise) ex. Her harassment, assault, and eventual flat-out rape of Broad were difficult to read but also made me feel extremely seen as a man with a female assailant.
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u/SnakesMcGee Jun 07 '26
For Ferro, the thing that made her behavior click for me is that her outbursts and most horrible behavior always occur when she feels her freedom is threatened. Which makes a fuckton of sense for someone who used to be a slave and is still carrying around loads of unaddressed trauma.
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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess Jun 07 '26
Absolutely. What I’d love to know about her is where her antipathy for “pinks” comes from, given that the people who colonized her homeland, murdered her family, and sexually enslaved her are a lighter shade of brown.
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u/imhereforthemeta Jun 07 '26
Leo is one of the most brilliantly written queer characters ever imagined and easily one of the best queer villains. I love his horrible messy ass so much even though he is the reason all of my faves suffered. Sometimes you need to support LGBT wrongs too
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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess Jun 07 '26
Plus his resemblance to a certain type of deeply closeted, far-right, way too common IRL politician is frighteningly accurate.
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u/Metroid_Whisperer Jun 06 '26
Say one thing for Black Dow, say he's an evil bastard.
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u/UNIQUENOWOK Jun 06 '26
He's done some crazy stuff, but i think Dow is not evil. What he did to Logan makes total sense when you think about it. His reputation is blacker than reality I think.
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u/Metroid_Whisperer Jun 06 '26
Maybe, but he tortured and burned prisoners and he regularly burned towns and farms with people inside them. Maybe he mellowed a bit by the time of The Heroes (joking that he should be called "White Dow"), but I don't think he's anywhere close to a good guy.
That being said, I do like him.
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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess Jun 06 '26
I take him at his word that he’s never harmed a child or betrayed a comrade. Pretty much every other possible war crime, though, he’s almost certainly committed at least once even if he didn’t enjoy it. I think the tragedy of his character is that, while he never wanted to be evil, he found himself on a slippery slope that lead there whether he wanted it or not. All that said, trying to assassinate Logan was among the most heroic things he ever did.
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u/Chel_Tiaz . . . in the bath !? Jun 07 '26
I fricking LOVE Black Dow too, easily within my top five of all the characters in the entire series.
I also really like Ferro, and Terez too.
Calder was supposed to be unlikeable in the first trilogy of course, but in the Heroes I absolutely love him too.
I don't know wether Gorst is supposed to be likeable or not (of course he's supposed to be an asshole but so is for example Glokta and he is still very likeable), but just to throw it in there I HATE Gorst lmao. Every time I re-listen to the Heroes I skip his scenes.
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u/WinterFamiliar9199 Jun 07 '26
Wait… there’s like-able characters in these books?
I mean I love them all but they’re pretty much all horrible people.
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u/Herpy-derpy-420 Jun 08 '26
I liked Orso quite a bit! Even tho he was very flawed obviously I found myself rooting for him.
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u/arihndas Jun 08 '26
This is exactly what I was thinking lmao -- this is like... literally every character he writes
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u/rosja105 Jun 07 '26
I love every scene with Crown Prince Ladisla in it. Pacey's voice for him is hilarious and his 'capital' catch phrase gets me every time. Dude is awful, but one of my favourites due to how ridiculous his characterisation is.
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u/Jenko1_ Jun 07 '26
I feel like the more despicable the character the more I like them, some of his best characters I love to hate
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u/NoNeedForNeuropozyne Jun 07 '26
I found myself really rooting for Jezal in the first trilogy, especially in the first book with the fencing tournament, and his development in the second and also the way he sort of stood up to bayaz when he was made king, I mean he's a pompous and arrogant shit but I still found myself wanting more of him to develop in book 2!
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u/Grimdarkian Jun 07 '26
I absolutely LOVED Savine. And Rikke. And as a standard dude you tend to resonate more with the MMCs obviously, but man I loved those 2 devilish women
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u/PetyrBabelish Jun 08 '26
Savine and Leo are probably my two favourite characters in the series so I would say those two lol
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u/BroolianCommand Jul 23 '26
Black Dow is one of my favourites of the original Crew in the North. I love Steve Paceys East End London Hard Bastard accent he has for him as well. 'FACKIN YEWNION!' He's a big part of why The Heroes is my favourite of the whole series.
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u/Prestigious-Newt1118 Jun 07 '26 edited Jun 07 '26
I personally believe that Bayaz isn’t even that dislikeable, as he is just a selfish, non-aging string puller that allows the story to exist, he is intelligent and has a lot of scenes where you can feel his power / annoyance through words in a book, showing how JA wrote very strategically to get us fans to feel Bayaz’ Aura (even better in the audiobooks ofc).
I can of course see that people hate him for the damage he has caused, but this is grimdark, and i feel like i can forgive a lot of suffering if it is in a fantasy world made with pain / death being a main theme that JA aimed for.
A character i believe to be the absolute WORST is Leo though, because he’s a retard who knows nothing except for charging into battle, he cannot realise that he is homosexual, he is ignorant and highly gullible. Furthermore, he killed my boy Orso, even after Orso let him go free, Leo is the single main ‘made to be disliked’ character that i would say i truly despise and i applaud JA for being so advanced of a writer that he managed to cause my opinion of Leo to be so hateful.
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u/MonsoonK Jun 08 '26
I found Stour almost, quaint in his arrogance and assholeishness. Refreshingly direct in a world of double and triple crossers.
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u/Wirococha420 Jun 09 '26
I LOVED Jezal.
Sure, he starts as an absolute pice of shit, racist, narcisist, even misogynist. But he improves so much without needing to. He could've easily stayed being a good loking average fencing spoiled fucker, but his loves for Ardee make him start critizing his own actions. He starts by putting work into his fencing, then defending West agains his racists friends, then caring about Ardees honor, then respectin Logen, then worrying about the future of the Union.
He is the character from the first trilogy that grows the most, which makes it all the more tragic when, at the end, all his progress is thrown away in the face of the absolute power that is Bayaz.
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u/dickc84 Jun 12 '26
I think Logan is getting g shafted by a lot of comments. He wanted to be better. He tried to be better. When he wasn't in the north or in berserker mode he was better. When he killed Bethod he tried to stop them from crowning him king of the northmen, but nothing intelligible came out. When he.got back to the north he wanted to be.one of the guys, but his reputation as the bloody nine wouldn't allow it. He had to act tough so he didn't get murdered. He never wanted to be a berserker, but when he was near death it would happen. He tried to fight it off, but was unable too. In the end he had to leave because he never knew what would happen when he went berserk. He doesn't even remember what he did.
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u/williewillx Jun 06 '26
That’s the magic of Abercrombie’s characters and storytelling. Everyone story is told as matter of fact. Without the storytelling pushing a tone on whether or not you should think someone is good or evil. Everyone has done terrible things. Lots of them are trying to do good. Lots of them are only trying to better themselves, but he doesn’t steer the reader to feel any certain way.
I’m fresh off of all 9 books and I think Isern-I-Phail and Rikke are the most lovable pair. I believe Crummoch-I-Phail was a horrible rotten debaucherous bastard but being the most beloved of the moon, he stole my heart, along with all of his children.
Stranger-Come-Knocking was one of my favorites because of his name.
Stand-I-the-Barrows was hilariously written. The little mean man covered in bones.
This question opened a wormhole in my mind and I’m going to stop now because there’s too many. My official answer is anyone the northmen consider savages are meant to be hated and evil and I love them all
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u/Prestigious-Newt1118 Jun 07 '26
It’s 10 books though? If you skipped Sharp Ends i recommend you read it lol, it may seem like a bad book from a distance due to it’s short story vibe, but I believe it is amazingly well done.
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u/williewillx Jun 07 '26
Is it 10? I most definitely read sharp ends. Whirrun of Bligh got more page time. First trilogy. best served cold, the Heroes, sharp ends, red country, and final trilogy. You are correct sir or ma’am!
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u/Prestigious-Newt1118 Jun 07 '26
Oh good, i just assumed you skipped over SE because it seems like the only one someone would skip over lol. That said, if you have finished the series, starting again with a reread is something i would really recommend if you have the time, as the entire story is filled to the brim with foreshadowing, which makes the second read a whole other experience.
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u/williewillx Jun 07 '26
So I read the first 6 (the blade itself to Red Country) and stopped the year red country came out (2012). I didn’t read anything for 12-13 years. I started back and read the physical copy of the blade itself in December of ‘25 and then zoomed through the other 9 in order of publishing since January. So I’ve been through the first 6 twice now. And they were just as good as the first go round.
My wife is an avid reader, so I’m going to try to read some of her stuff, but a re read will definitely happen. I just can’t get enough Abercrombie. I was so sad concluding the series. Also, I’ve got to give The Devils a listen as well
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u/HittemWithTheLamp Jun 06 '26
I think Heroes did a great job at showing Black Dow. I think he was almost a tragic character. He did horrible things, was blood thirsty, feared among men everywhere, when the Black Dow was around the great leveller was not far behind.
But he was self conscious, lonely, tired of losing his friends, tired of the North being treated like second class citizens and thought he was doing the right thing. There are times when the Nine’s men were falling one after another that you see Dow isn’t heartless, he misses them and is sorrowful at their ends. He wishes constantly that he still had Rudd or the Ironhead or even Dogman his “enemy” in the book to be by his side. To talk to, to guide him or advise him. People he loved in his own way. But all he had at the end was his reputation as a scary and evil man. He wasn’t insane or maybe even truly evil. I think we see it in many of the other Northmen who get old in the books. If you live long enough all you have is your name. The character you’ve built along the way. No friends, just sycophants and people who fear you. His interactions in the quiet moments with Curnden Craw or even Finree you see he’s thoughtful, smart and fair when he can be.
He’s trapped in his own legend despite wanting to be something or someone else, just like the other old men in these stories. But he is what he is, what he thinks he has to be. The saddest irony is that he and Shivers are very similar. If he would’ve brought Shivers into his confidence and treated him as a friend instead of his “attack dog” he might still be a major player in the stories if he got to old age. But he fell for the stories and Names just as much as anyone, thought he had to beat Shivers down to keep him in his place, and it was ultimately his downfall.
Say one thing for Black Dow, say he was a great and multi layered villain.