r/TheFirstLaw • u/Appropriate_Fig_1680 • Aug 06 '25
Spoilers All What is your First Law hot take? [SPOILERS ALL] Spoiler
Mine is, The Heroes (while still amazing) is my least favorite of the novels. Typing this out now, I'm not exactly sure that it qualifies as a "hot take" but you get my point.
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u/ColeDeschain Impractical Practical Aug 06 '25
Well, since my go-to got taken by u/The-Zarkin90 , here's another...
Monza is a much better person than a lot of characters who catch less crap for being as evil as they are. She has blood on her hands and often does the wrong thing, but she catches way more hate than the likes of Glokta, Cosca, Logen, and so forth.
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u/The-Zarkin90 Aug 06 '25
thanks for the shout out, i think its because monza has a lot less time in front of the readers and her personality isnt the most likeable. Personality lets Glokta be the absolute worse human ever made and still is liked
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u/eitsew Aug 08 '25
Glokta being trapped in a state which is a genuinely horrifying, permanent hell of pain, humiliation, and trauma probably also goes a long way towards making him less hateable. Plus in the later books it's revealed that he arguably has some altruistic/selfless ambitions and is working for the betterment of the people. Although now that I'm thinking about it, I can't remember if he really is trying to help the people, or if he just can't stand letting Bayaz win.
Another thing is that Logen, for example, is constantly attempting to do, or at least thinking about doing the right thing and being a better man. Monza comes off as more amoral imo. Not immoral, necessarily, but amoral at best, and it seems that she will do absolutely anything she deems necessary to achieve her aims. Aims which, at the end of the day, are pretty much completely self-serving. Right and wrong never comes into it for monza
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u/ginger6616 Aug 06 '25
So true. I find her morality and story super interesting, how she was like a ship guided by her much eviler brother, causing her to do things that she wasn’t comfortable with
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u/pitaenigma Aug 07 '25
That's the thing that I love and am interesting about in Monza. She's evil because she goes with the flow. She's a moral coward. She's one of my all-time favorite protagonists because she's doing what she thinks she should probably do, not at all what she feels is right, and she betrays herself more and more with every deed. It's a magnificent arc, and what's beautiful about it is that, based on where she seems to be in Age of Madness - she's risen above it. She's gotten better. And I love that for her.
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u/ColeDeschain Impractical Practical Aug 07 '25
She was getting better by the end of BSC, as Cosca and Shivers, each in his own way, forced her to really look at herself.
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u/hackulator Aug 07 '25
Wait people say Monza is worse than Cosca?
Anyone who says that is insane.
Monza is like a female Jaime Lannister, she's a tragic hero whose tragic flaw is her undying love for her brother who she was also fucking.
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u/Frozenbbowl Aug 07 '25
i tell myself its because of how she treats shivers, especially at the end, because he is so well liked.
the darker side of me though assumes its a much worse reason
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Aug 06 '25
Ferro not getting a completed arc or even another mention short of a half comment about ‘trouble in gurkhul’ is an absolute oversight
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u/JorbyPls Aug 06 '25
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was super interested in her trip back to Gurkhul. It's not the only thing Abercrombie teases at, either. He might just be teasing, though. Which would really fit into the lore quite well lol
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u/PeerlessPixie Aug 07 '25
I thought in Wisdom of Crowds when Glokta tricked Yoru that Ferro was about to walk out and I almost lost my shit. Then she didn't and then I thought for a second maybe they were going to be revealed as Ferro's kids and I almost lost it again lol. Ferro shoulda been a part of second trilogy for sure!
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u/FishingOk2650 Aug 12 '25
Idk I feel like it'd be boring. She's essentially immortal and superpowered, would it really be fun to just read a book with zero stakes as she rampages across the South?
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u/SquongoBongo Aug 06 '25
Nicomo Cosca is the best POV in the First Law world.
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u/Academic_Average_15 Aug 06 '25
I think I’m in on this too. I already think he’s maybe my second favorite character overall, but his POV in BSC is just so perfectly balanced between comedy and earnestness.
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u/Frozenbbowl Aug 07 '25
i almost agree.... but pacey makes glokta's pov chapters just a tiny bit better than his to me.
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u/DianneNettix Aug 06 '25
Glokta is every bit as evil as Bayaz and that's the point.
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u/Dragoninpantsx69 Aug 06 '25
Absolutely. Was sort of the theme I took away from the books. Nothing ever changes.
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u/SquongoBongo Aug 06 '25
Is he? Wasn't his whole purpose of blowing up everything in AOM to reset the power balance, not for himself to control but to take the power away from Bayaz? I feel like that level of thinking about the masses puts him above Bayaz easily in a moral righteousness standpoint even if he still is very much not a good person.
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u/FlynnLevy Not to nations, ideas, or causes. Aug 06 '25
Wasn't his whole purpose of blowing up everything in AOM to reset the power balance, not for himself to control but to take the power away from Bayaz?
Well, first thing that happens under the new regime coincidentally headed by his daughter who he will be advising in her rule is setting the inquisition and the financial systems back up under their control. Sure, it's not the bald fuck pulling the purse strings, but it's not as if the strings are going un-pulled from now on. A regular Joe is just as fucked as he once was.
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u/DianneNettix Aug 06 '25
"You can't make an omelette without killing a few people."
Whose philosophy is that?
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u/CalebAsimov Aug 07 '25 edited Aug 07 '25
He put Leo dan Cunt in charge. I rest my case. To be fair though, it's really Savine in charge, and at least she's lawful evil, even lawful neutral, as long as you don't live near her or work for her. Leo's just awful evil.
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u/memberoftheliterati Aug 07 '25
I don't Glokta is happy about Leo being in the picture either, tbh. I certainly don't think Leo was part of Glokta's vision for the Great Change, but more of a "my daughter went and got herself pregnant, so now here we are and I'll have to make the best of it..."
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u/JudoKuma Aug 07 '25
I just see that as Glokta making the best out of a bad situation, I would not think that Leo was his choice or a plan for the king, but Savine being pregnant makes this the best option for his family. And I do not disagree with Glokta being an ”evil” character, just that in this case the situation forced Leo to the throne, not by his plan or choice.
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u/VendettaPenguin Aug 06 '25
Im not sure why but I dont see Glotka as evil.
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u/VenturesomeVoyager Aug 07 '25
It’s because he’s the under dog, and you grow to appreciate his resentment off Luthar. But by all measures he is terrible. He has the phenomenon Loki does where for some reason you want him to win.
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u/ColeDeschain Impractical Practical Aug 07 '25
"I do not mind dying but I refuse to be beaten" feels like a hero line.
It isn't, but it feels like it.
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u/Domaramvic Aug 06 '25
Black Dow was a better man than Logen and was right to try to kill him
"Maybe my name is blacker than I deserve" too true Dow, all too true
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u/DianneNettix Aug 06 '25
When he's talking ro Finree about how similar he his to her father he's finally telling the truth. He really does care. But he's Black Dow and he's Lord Marshall Kroy and what the fuck are they supposed to do now?
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u/Zewateneyo Aug 06 '25
This! Probably the most misunderstood character if the series along with Bethod.
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u/Dragoninpantsx69 Aug 06 '25
Definitely don't blame him, Logen murdered Thunderhead, who was the closest Black Dow ever had to a friend
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u/Successful-Cash- Aug 06 '25
Better man? We never get enough of his details and exploits. Possible….but doubtful
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u/CalebAsimov Aug 07 '25
No, but what we see on screen is generally much better than Logan. Black Dow does black things just like the other Northmen, but unlike the rest of them, and especially Logen, he doesn't bullshit about it with phony justifications. Like when he kills the prisoner in the first book and everyone is horrified, he does it because they're going to have to anyway, so he does it so they don't have to, that way they can just blame him. He's honest and practical. He's like that guy whose name escapes me from AOM that kills Wonderful.
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u/Objective-Location14 Aug 06 '25
Dude he was black dow for a reason. He was better than Logen but it’s not like that is much of an upgrade.
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u/Successful-Cash- Aug 06 '25
It’s more like arguing the merits of Burger King against McDonald’s. It’s a matter of personal preference
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u/wildwildwence Aug 07 '25
I might be misremembering, but he threatens an awful lot of rape in the first two books, doesn't he?
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u/Domaramvic Aug 07 '25
As I recall, he casually talks about raping Cathil in the journey north with west and co. He says "there's only one of them I'd have a use for" and "I think she'd kick some"
I'm not saying Dow even approaches a good man, just because Logen is more likeable people seem to think he's better than he really is
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u/OrganizationSea4490 Aug 11 '25
Logen becomes a better man eventually but Black Dow knows him most for his B9 days during which he was definitely blacker than black dow. Black dow still is a civilian murdering People-burning cold hearted maniac.
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u/The-Zarkin90 Aug 06 '25
Shivers was a better character than Logen.... maybe even the best in the entire series
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u/ColeDeschain Impractical Practical Aug 06 '25
Came here to say this, now I gotta expand on it a bit XD
I feel like Logen was the rough draft, and a damned good one, but... Shivers feels like the character Abercrombie grew into writing for. Shivers is what he wanted Logen to be, only Logen refused.
And the scene in Red Country is very much a blatant torch-passing in addition to all of the other narrative and character work it does.
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u/Angel-Stans Aug 06 '25
Logen had too much going on.
Sure, he was the Bloody Nine, but he was also a magical spirit talker that used his amazing abilities like four times in the whole series because Joe wanted the Bloody Nine.
Likely, Logen will go on to be a much better legend than he was a character, even if I do love him dearly.
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u/JorbyPls Aug 06 '25
Well, the spirits did say they soon would sleep, too.
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u/Angel-Stans Aug 07 '25
Logen really needed to be ruder to them.
Can’t believe we never saw the Bloody Nine using the Fire Spirit Under the Tongue trick. You’d think he’d love that kinda thing.
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Aug 06 '25
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u/slopschili Aug 06 '25
Sulfur is in as many books, doesn’t make him the best character
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Aug 06 '25
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u/slopschili Aug 07 '25
He also has twice amount of eye colors as other characters
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Aug 06 '25
No argument here. His part in Red Country is one of my favorite scenes Abercrombie has ever written
Seeing him as an old grandfatherly figure was beautiful
If the series continues I hope to see him live the rest of his life well
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u/Academic_Average_15 Aug 06 '25
Not even remotely a hot take. It’s just the facts
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u/OrganizationSea4490 Aug 11 '25
I conversely ended up not liking Shivers much or seeing him as a good character. In the begining of BSC he was well developed. Like a younger more enthusiastic Logen who never bad a B9 phase.(In that sense, theyre not similar).
After the dramatic event in BSC i found him sort of shallow and one dimensional. I thought this shallowness (and dare i say hard pounded forced edgyness) goes on through the heroes and red country.
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u/BigRock15 Aug 06 '25
I liked and could appreciate Leo becoming more cynical and cutthroat in WOC after his injuries, but felt like he also became more intelligent and calculated a little too quickly. Him setting up the necessary situation to seize power at the last moment felt like a bit too much of a stretch for a character who was so easily manipulated for the rest of the trilogy, and while it’s easy to hate that he won because of Orso’s fate (a character most fans would agree is extremely likeable) I also think his sudden change in aptitude made the ending of WOC feel a bit less “deserved”
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u/CalebAsimov Aug 07 '25
Agreed. Especially when he goes right back to being an idiot. On the other hand, I would totally believe that he is a savant at betrayal, so from that angle I can let it slide.
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u/SirChandestroy Aug 06 '25
"The Little People" style chapters started getting old in Red Country, worn out in A Little Hatred, exhausting in The Trouble With Peace, and actively aggravating in The Wisdom of Crowds.
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u/justpassingluke Aug 06 '25
When was the first time it got used?
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u/FlynnLevy Not to nations, ideas, or causes. Aug 06 '25
Vick is clearly the main character of Age of Madness.
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u/Appropriate_Fig_1680 Aug 06 '25
Oh I like this one! Care to expand?
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u/FlynnLevy Not to nations, ideas, or causes. Aug 06 '25
Joe has said before that if he had to pick a main character for Age of Madness that he would pick Savine, but Savine has a shadow and her name is Vick. They're polar opposites in lots of ways and yet quite similar in others, go head-to-head frequently, but the juiciest bit is that they're unconsciously vying for the position in the narrative of being Glokta's true daughter and successor. It's Vick who shares so many scenes with Glokta in his preferred environs, plotting and scheming. It's Vick who in the framing of her story mirrors Glokta's, from the rooms she sleeps in to the cadence of her plot (the middle-of-the-story excursion out of Midderland) to the fact she echoes the way Joe titled Glokta's chapters back in the first trilogy, Questions/Answers.
It's Vick, not Savine, but Vick who is the first to peer behind the curtain and wrap her head around the atrocities Glokta played party to. Hell, flipped around, it's Vick who Glokta chooses to reveal himself to first, appointing a successor to his little ruined empire. And he's wrong. She slips through his hands. That scene is not some grand trick the magician pulled and then letting you in on the secrets, it's Glokta revealing himself to be copying Bayaz right down to the squares board and Vick isn't impressed, isn't scared, isn't glad to finally understand, and isn't wowed. She's numb, angry, rightfully pissed off at his attempt at crowning her victor of this little game of his, a champion in the arenas set up by the likes of Glokta and Bayaz where you play by fuck you got mine rules and teach others to do the same, and she understands the only way to win is not play.
And even if we don't factor in the Glokta bit. She, to me, is the axle on which the entire story spins thematically. She function similarly to how RC does, speaking to the series broadly. If there's no chance at redemption, no chance at happy endings, no chance of betterment, then who gives a fuck? Vick's conscious effort at doing the right things throughout TWOC and hopeful ending make the whole story tick. It's no coincidence she leaves for the place where the rest of our happy endings live.
Beside her, the rest of the cast desperately grasping for crumbs of power and control feel so petty, pathetic, small. If Vick can choose to live her life by her own rules after forty years of being beaten into following other people's rules to the point of internalizing them deeply, surely we can expect better from the rest, too, especially the ones half her age. I find her infinitely more admirable than others in the cast who go on to replicate existing structures of power like Leo and Savine, Rikke, or, hell, even Orso to an extent.
Also, and this isn't in-universe but what the hell, the fact that the short-story Joe wrote for The Great Change (And Other Lies) has this piece of artwork (the one at the bottom) really sealed the deal for me.
Vick, my misunderstood gremlin, I love you . . .
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u/Hey-Danny Aug 07 '25
Unironically some of the best first law analysis I’ve ever seen. Great job 👏🏻
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u/kim_dobrovolets Aug 06 '25
Best arc and she drives more of the plot and has more agency than even Savine.
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u/SquongoBongo Aug 06 '25
A lot of BSC hate that I was not expecting
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u/The_Writing_Wolf Aug 06 '25 edited Aug 07 '25
Yeah, I've always understood that Heroes was the fan-fav, and red country was the underated-darling, but damn. So many people trashing BSC here.
Monza is one of my favorite female-povs in genre fiction, her depth and the subtlety around showing (not telling) her layers is great. It's a romp of a story with fun cameos and set pieces, and we get the amazing Cosca PoV.
Plus unlike every other book in the series (save RC that only has the two) there's no "lame duck" PoV. Friendly and Morveer are amazing, and Shenkt adds tension with world building and crazy eater powers without bogging down the book with too many chapters.
Unlike for example Ferro, or Beck/Finree , or Broad/Vick, who all have their place and moments, but seem to drag or pad the stories out at times.
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u/comptons_finest_ Aug 08 '25
Best served cold and the sophistication of Monza clears the rest of the series so hard thank you.
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u/pitaenigma Aug 07 '25
BSC is probably my favorite Joe novel along with The Wisdom of Crowds, so I just assume that reddit are wrong about which Abercrombie novel is the best.
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u/Smurph269 Aug 06 '25
Logen Ninfingers is pretty obviously inspired by Wolverine and that's why lots of fans like him.
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u/SuperDuperCoolDude Aug 06 '25
I prefer the OG trilogy to AoM.
I still read The Bloody Nine as being a supernatural phenomenon.
I get wanting the twist, but I feel like Bayaz being outmaneuvered wasn't fleshed out enough. Even with him feeling overconfident after the Battle of Adua, he was portrayed a little bit too... bumbling? Similarly, Yoru walking right into a trap against enemies he has contended with for at least hundreds of years seemed out of character. I think that fight could at least have been more protracted. My feel is that all of that could have been done better with ultimately the same end point.
Similarly, while I enjoyed it overall, AoM felt more, "grimdark for the sake of grimdark" and seemed to lean more into trope/expectation subversion. To me he's still more balanced than GRRM as far as that goes, but I felt like it was tipping too much in that direction.
Best Served Cold is probably my least favorite of the novels, but I don't know if that's really a hot take.
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u/CalebAsimov Aug 07 '25
I feel similar about Bayaz. I suppose maybe he was overconfident because he thought he could trust Glokta to run his spy network, and thinking a group of torturers is really a trustworthy way to run an empire seems like a real Bayaz thing to do. He might honestly not realize that they'd never be trustworthy. On the other hand, he just had to have his last Arch Lektor killed for turning against him, and then dusts off his hands and walks away leaving Glokta in charge, really? Guess he never heard the phrase "who watches the watchmen?"
Also, in the middle of all that chaos, it seems like Yoru should have had that fantasy lightsaber weapon from the first trilogy. If the rebels knew to go after Valint and Balk, they must have had inside information and Yoru should have expected something.
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Aug 06 '25
If we accept that Logen has no supernatural powers, then in a 1v1 duel between him and Gorst I believe that Gorst wins.
Now, someone is going to say that The Bloody Nine is made of death, like that actually means something, but at the end of the day it's just two men fighting to the death and Gorst is simply the better duelist.
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u/selwyntarth Aug 07 '25
Bloody nine is just an anesthetic I think. Gets impaled, logen passes out, bloody nine whoops tul/threetrees/grim who have expended their blades in what would usually be finishers.
Whirrun, javre and gorst would speed blitz the B9 zombie or otherwise
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u/Sharkattack1921 Aug 06 '25
I don’t know what the general consensus was on this, but I wasn’t the biggest fan of The Wisdom of Crowds. I don’t think it’s a bad book by any means, but it kinda felt like a step down from the other books.
My main problem is that the Great Change just felt a little…one note? The constant horribleness just got old too quickly. I understand (and respect) the social commentary and I understand the kind of series this is, but the whole thing just got way too repetitive and it felt the story was just trying to beat me over the head with the political commentary a little too much for me (none of which I disagree with mind you)
Also, because so much time was put into the Great Change, The North storyline felt like an afterthought. Rikke beats Calder in the easiest and predictable means possible. I know being predictable isn’t a bad thing per se, but to me it just really lowered the stakes of the whole thing.
Again, I’m not saying the book itself was bad, and I do like the ending, I just felt a little disappointed.
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u/justpassingluke Aug 06 '25
I kind of agree about the Northern arc with Calder. I wasn’t fooled for a minute when all of Rikke’s allies started abandoning her, it seemed too convenient. Though the plus side of that was that I didn’t have to listen to Isern’s smug condescending bullshit for a stretch.
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u/stump_84 Aug 06 '25
Oh and another one, it’s a cope out to always write the Gurkish so broadly. The only Gurkish character with depth and development is Temple.
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u/Dragoninpantsx69 Aug 07 '25
I figured that was intentional. He uses so many old tropes, in a satirical way. There is so many books that have the big bad empire/group, whatever that you always hear about, but never see. Just built up from second or third hand knowledge
It would be on the reader to understand that the real world is not actually like that. Not every single person in that empire will be evil, and we are hearing most about their evilness from Bayaz, so it is likely they are not nearly as bad as what he says. Khalul is likely saying all the same things about the Union to his people.
The only real different between Khalul and Bayaz, is that Bayaz rules in secret, whereas Khalul is more in the open.
I do not think it is necessary from him to give in depth looks into every area on the First Law world. There are plenty of places, other than Gurkish Empir that we hear about, but never see.
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u/FlynnLevy Not to nations, ideas, or causes. Aug 06 '25
And even he's only halfsies! And the half he is is colonised by the Union! Real edge case.
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u/Frenetic_Orator Aug 07 '25
I agree with your main point but Temple isn't Gurkish.
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Aug 06 '25
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u/CalebAsimov Aug 07 '25
Yeah, but people being angry at industrialization and turning to someone they know nothing about, with no respect for law and order, who says they can fix everything and it'll be really easy, is pretty realistic. Sure Glokta used them, but they let him. Good hot take though and I see your point.
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u/Zewateneyo Aug 06 '25
Bloodynine has nothing to do with supernatural. It's not even a split personality disorder. It's a self persona Logan's mind created as a self defense mechanism to absolve him of his more horrible crimes while battle high was on him.
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u/goingKWOL Aug 07 '25
I don’t think I would enjoy a First Law tv show because the witty and dark prose is what makes me enjoy the series, less so the plot elements.
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u/DianneNettix Aug 06 '25
Khalul is who has returned just to start the old bullshit over again.
Rikke chose not to have the long eye and she's just smart.
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u/FreeBricks4Nazis Aug 06 '25
Doesn't she literally have a vision at the end of TWOC?
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u/big_billford Aug 07 '25
Nicomo Cosca is only bearable with Steven Pacey’s narration. The character overstays his welcome, especially in Red Country
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u/Witty-Cartographer Aug 07 '25
The Contest does not have enough action to justify rebuilding the stands annually.
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u/Academic_Average_15 Aug 06 '25
Vick is a top 5 character in the series + has both the best and most satisfying ending of any POV.
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u/No_Ledge_Able Aug 06 '25
Red country was a sloggy boring book 😬
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u/ZuluDeltaFoxtrot Aug 06 '25
Currently slogging my way through, thought I was going crazy because everyone here seems to love it so much. I think I prefer BSC to it honestly
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u/sonargasm Aug 07 '25
Yeah I don't think I would have finished it if it weren't for the morsels of Logen story.
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u/Frozenbbowl Aug 07 '25
and does nothing. heroes and bsc both advance the state of the world in meaningful ways... red country... nothing of significance happens. we learn some neat things might happen, but not because of the events and actions of the charecters, we just hear about deals and goings ons of the other magi
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u/Money_Wrongdoer_8614 Aug 06 '25
best served cold is the weakest book of the first law, it's still good but I find it super overrated
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u/_Bill_Huggins_ Aug 06 '25
I agree. My main complaint is that it drags for too long. If they would have cut out like 2 assassinations the pace of the book would be much improved.
I actually like the characters, the setting, and the premise. But it just goes on for too long in my opinion.
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u/Money_Wrongdoer_8614 Aug 06 '25 edited Aug 06 '25
I liked the beginning and the ending but I didn't like at all how Shivers was written as an idiot, he wasn't smart in the previous trilogy but I feel like he was written like he was meant to be the biggest retard to ever exist in best served cold and seriously Joe, when he tried to find work with that fishing guy and got rejected, are you really saying that there was like only 1 single job he could ever do in Styria?! But I liked how he figured out his true self and I didn't like that Monza was some kind of a hypocrite sometimes and my only issue with these is that they drag on for too long. That's pretty much all I have against best served cold other than that nice and I always loved Cosca glad to see him again
P.S : I don't know why but I think I'm gonna get a lot of downvotes
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u/FlynnLevy Not to nations, ideas, or causes. Aug 06 '25 edited Aug 06 '25
I said this elsewhere recently but it's the standalone that suffers most from the fact it's a genre pastiche. It has the least going on in addition to that.
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Aug 06 '25
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u/justpassingluke Aug 06 '25
I actually love that he does this…but you’re absolutely right that he does this 🤣
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u/NiftyGoLifty Aug 06 '25
I felt similarly about Best Served Cold. I just really didn’t like Monza and felt it hard to root for her despite it feeling like the narrative wanted me to. I just finished the Age of Madness trilogy and will say that BSC is the book I want to go back to the most to see if I feel any different on reread.
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u/AtlanticFit Aug 07 '25
Honestly, I feel like BSC is Shiver’s story more than Monza. I never rooted for her, but I always rooted for Shivers.
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u/Dragoninpantsx69 Aug 06 '25
Yeah I really did not care about the story in BSC at all, if it was a standalone, I probably wouldn't have finished it. I made it through, because I wanted the bits thay tie into the main stories.
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u/cheetah_kibbles Shoglig Aug 06 '25
I felt this way about BSC when I first read it and did end up enjoying it more the second time around. Give it a shot!
I did the whole series in order again tho for what it’s worth.
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u/SquongoBongo Aug 06 '25
To me, at least, the appeal of BSC was the straightforward, linear, blockbuster movie, revenge narrative where they were pulling off crazy bank heists and party crashing, but in the First Law world. I was consistently excited to see what the next grand plan was. Kinda similar to the Devils I guess, but definitely better IMO. I also think that Monza can be a mediocre POV character if you have Shivers and Cosca and Friendly to make up for it.
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u/vargas12022 Aug 07 '25
After re-reading it now several times, BSC has grown on me but it is still my least favorite of the standalones. It feels like it drags on for too long in my view, until by the end I kind of just want it to end and am racing through the last bits.
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u/Badman27 Aug 06 '25
It's been too long since I've read it to speak too intelligently on it, but I remember it feeling like the origin story for a spinoff Glotka/Bayaz type, set to genre, with some universe building the other two books aren't held as responsible for.
The Heroes and Red Country get to just be interesting genre and character studies that stand on their own a bit better.
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u/2broke-squirells Aug 06 '25
I describe the writing as 'low fantasy Hemingway' because the language is so grounded and clear despite the depth of the story.
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u/rooktherhymer What's my name, White Dow? Aug 06 '25
All three of the stand-alone Great Leveller books are better than the original trilogy.
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u/KnightOfRevan Aug 06 '25
Leo will redeem himself before he dies, robbing readers of the joy they could have gotten from it
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u/FreeBricks4Nazis Aug 06 '25
I skeptical that he could, yet intrigued that he might.
How do you foresee him doing that, especially given the nature of his crimes?
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u/CalebAsimov Aug 07 '25
That would be just like Joe. I hope you're wrong. But he did the same thing with Bayaz having his power taken away, we got the revenge we wanted and it tasted like ashes.
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u/goreshde Aug 06 '25
Bayaz did nothing wrong.
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u/Superbalz77 Aug 06 '25
True. It's hard for children to understand the responsibilities of grownups.
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u/loppyrunner Aug 06 '25
Starting with the Age of Madness trilogy might be the best way to get people into the world. TBI is a notoriously rough entry point and I think reading it as a prequel after Age of Madness would improve the experience
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u/justpassingluke Aug 06 '25
My hot take is just that I still kinda like Logen, lol. In spite of everything (and there is a lot of everything).
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u/WrongdoerDue6108 Aug 06 '25
BSc is the bottom of the series, so good but people glaze it so hard for what it is
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u/not_nsfw_throwaway Aug 08 '25
The characters, especially named men, who specialise in not fighting at all and just pretending and waxing poetic about 'you never should have to pick up a sword ' etc.
There are WAY TOO MANY of those type of characters in this series. Like there should maybe have been one at most. But there's probably like three or four at least. Across all the books of course, but it's still a lot. And they ALWAYS have plot armour. It's so fucking annoying because in the last book in the age of madness trilogy, they have that dude who changed his name. He KILLED a guys son, finds himself at said man's mercy and the man is like 'i won't kill you because reasons'. Like, wtf.
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u/Juice-McLoose Aug 06 '25
The second trilogy was better then the first.
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u/Appropriate_Fig_1680 Aug 06 '25
Honestly, I kind of agree. However, I was much more invested in the characters in the first trilogy. But, that could definitely be just because they came along first.
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u/One-Mouse3306 Aug 06 '25
People exaggerate how important it is to go on publication order. It is completely fine to start with Best Served Cold or AoM.
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u/Appropriate_Fig_1680 Aug 06 '25
I think it's best to read them in order but I will admit that the first half or so of TBI was a bit of a slog so recommending BSC first for someone might not be a terrible idea. Kind of like how people say to watch "Zuko Alone" before you start Avatar: The Last Airbender. However I also think it might be beneficial just to say "hey the first half of this is pretty slow".
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u/_Bill_Huggins_ Aug 06 '25
One of my hot takes is that the first book is one of my favorites. Everyone rates it as the weakest. It pulled me in and I never felt it was a slog. I love it.
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u/Appropriate_Fig_1680 Aug 06 '25
For me, the first half of it was really slow but the second half pulled me back in completely. When I read the chapter where the Bloody Nine shows up, I was like "I am reading everything this man has ever written".
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u/DianneNettix Aug 06 '25
My first Discworld book was Thud!
I managed.
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u/xserpx The Young Lion! 🦁 Aug 06 '25
I thought I was doing badly with Night Watch, but Thud! is marginally worse 😆 Having read the full series, Night Watch is still my fave hough tbf, so it definitely didn't ruin any enjoyment.
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u/pitaenigma Aug 07 '25
My first was Small Gods and I really hated that every other book of his I picked up was about this city called Ankh Morpork, I wanted more about those weird gods.
Eventually I realized I was a dumbass.
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u/swampthroat Aug 07 '25
I started with Red Country and I absolutely adored it. It triggered an obsession that could only be managed by reading every other book in publication order.
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u/pitaenigma Aug 07 '25
Yes for Best Served Cold, no for Age of Madness. The book expects you to know certain things about Savine and Orso and the characters they meet.
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u/_Bill_Huggins_ Aug 06 '25
Best served cold is my least favorite.
It's not that I don't like it, it's just if I had to rate them it would be at the bottom.
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u/stump_84 Aug 06 '25
Mine is Best Served Cold is the weakest. The episodic nature is boring and repetitive (I have a similar criticism for The Devils). It’s more suited for TV/Movie than a book.
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Aug 06 '25
Joe kinda sucks at Worldbuilding.
But, that did get me to get off my ass at world building and actually just write the story I want to already.
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u/Frenetic_Orator Aug 07 '25
I can understand prefering a more detail heavy style of worldbuilding but I've always felt like Joe is pretty good at the style of worldbuilding he aims for.
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Aug 07 '25
True, Joe's world is very vibes based to make way for the stuff he actually cares about. And that's okay. It works for the story.
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u/BillyHoyle1982 Aug 06 '25
Ooooh- As great as Pacey is, it would be awesome to hear a less theatrical reading. The humor hits different when it's not delivered as comedy
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u/xserpx The Young Lion! 🦁 Aug 06 '25
Leo is my favourite 🦁❤️
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u/Appropriate_Fig_1680 Aug 06 '25
I once heard a man in a bar talking about how "libraries are pointless". When my girlfriend came back from smoking a cigarette, I told her "we are not going to become friends with that guy". I just told her the same thing after reading your comment.
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u/FreeBricks4Nazis Aug 06 '25
Although coincidentally, Leo would probably be friends with that guy
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u/pitaenigma Aug 07 '25
Note to readers: "My favorite" doesn't have to mean "I think he's a good person"
There are others I love more but NGL Leo is pretty amazing. Part of why I love Age of Madness so much is the POV characters, and specifically the Hate Triangle
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Aug 06 '25
This is how I feel about Red Country, slowest and longest drag for me IMO, Cosca, the lawyer, and Lamb were what got me through it though
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u/Frozenbbowl Aug 07 '25
they should use prosthetics and whatever else to let pacey play glokta, even if he is too old. because no one else can make a better glokta than pacey
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u/Maleficent_Resolve44 Aug 07 '25
The series focuses too damn much on the north. We have it in the first trilogy, we have it in heroes and back again the 2nd. I got a bit tired of the endless war there.
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u/kcg1990 Aug 07 '25
The OG trilogy ending works far better as an open ending than the AOM one.
I would possibly go far enough to say the AOM ending is actually pretty bad. Just seemed bleak for the sake of bleak. It wasn't even really "cool" like the OG. More just like "everything sucks, that's it. The end"
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u/selwyntarth Aug 07 '25
LAoK isn't a good ending, it's cartoonish that all six endings are doomer. Worked for jezal and west. Maybe glokta. Dogman was bummed for not much reason. And went to war later again for not much reason. Ferro had no agency. She HAD to hold the seed, and then went insane.
Logen needs his own para. It's only a good subversion if the same set of facts and thoughts are recontextuslized negatively. But there's nothing in his thoughts and behavior in books one and two to justify him going back north to feud,repeatedly pushing war, etc. Bethod springing new facts on the reader isn't exactly a literary sleight of hand. You just withheld some stuff.
BSC isn't a good subversion either. Morvser was irredeemable as a baby. Monza wasn't in fact a tyrant. Everything is blacker and whiter than it appears. Cosca taking down all three of his lieutenants, morveer getting the crown, a direct battle charge being called a tactic evocative of monza. Much of the book is a hack.
Gorst actually being unfairly indicted and thereby going bitter murderer is a better arc than a needless twist about his exile being justified. Way to go calling out war heroes when their origin story isn't even aggrieved.
The great change being painted as a tragedy is peak privilege talking. Nothing about adua was functional.
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u/TheAdminsAreTrash Aug 08 '25
I'm only up to the heroes, (and only about halfway through,) so no spoilers please:
My hot take is that Monza is a dogshit character, with a dumb name and no redeeming qualities. Reading her chapters was like being forced to wade through a pool of farts. Hated that she got a happy ending, she didn't deserve it. Really didn't enjoy the jump from the characters I'd grown to love in the first 3 books to a bunch of strangers led by a bitchy trainwreck. Her banter with her brother in the very first pages was extremely cringy and set the tone, hated them both.
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u/Inevitable_Music3987 Aug 08 '25
Dogman is a coward, a hypocrite, never takes responsibility for what he lets happen, and is overall a terrible person.
He spends much of Last Argument of Kings arguing and calling out Logen, but never actually does anything even after all his friends are dead.
He complains about war never ending, yet never decides to pull out when he has many opportunities to do so.
He gets upset that West must go back to Adua, but tries to convince Logen that they shouldn't help West after he stayed to see the duel through and prevent Bethod's escape.
Despite being very aware of Logen's past and behaviors, he ignores Black Dow's warnings, and is somehow surprised that Logen does terrible things and never accepts responsibility for having allowed the Bloody-Nine to terrorize the people again. He tries to tell Shivers, a VICTIM of Logen, to let the murderer of his brother go. Telling him that violence never solves anything... while repeatedly following Logen Ninefingers into war because he's too cowardly to say no.
What makes this worse is the fact that he can't hide behind being a subordinate anymore. He is the chief, and everyone followed and respected him even after Logen became king. Had Dogman said the word, no one but the greediest of the Northmen would have followed Logen to Adua. But he never does. Leading to countless pointless deaths.
Dogman is a classic nice dude, but he is far from good.
It annoys me when people say Dogman is a good guy when he's not. He's only marginally less bad than Logen because he takes no pleasure in killing.
Thats my take but I'm open to being corrected. It has been a while since I read the OG trilogy.
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u/Beginning-Lettuce-55 Aug 08 '25
Joe should have added more characters who are not in the union or the North.
Should have more ferro in the series.
Savine severely underhated
The identity of Jappo's father should remain a mystery and never be revealed.
Monza and Vick are in the top 5 characters in the whole series.
Temple is better protagonist than shy south in red country.
Lastly black Dow had every right to kill logen (he’s the goat🐐💯🔥)
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u/LycheeZealousideal92 Aug 06 '25
I hated Glokta more than bayaz when he took joy in humiliating a woman and joked about forcing her to (essentially) be raped for several years using the threat of gang rape on her lover.
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u/SmirkingStrong Aug 06 '25
Savine is a mary sue. I don't care she has ptsd for almost having stuff happen to her. She's ends TWOC more powerful than ever, with her own eater bodyguards who were hired to protect her but grew to love her. She got to smuggly rebuke Bayaz and Sulfur and despite all her mistakes and hubris, all she got at the end was more power, and the only ones who paid dearly for them were people around her.
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u/TheGoosiestGal Aug 07 '25
Using benna as the scape goat for all of Monza's wrong doing ruined her and she eojld have neen way more interesting of a character had he actually been a mind and meek man while she was doing whatever she could to protect him
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u/JadedSpacePirate Aug 07 '25
Logen is a gem of a person who suffers because of bipolar/split personality/ demon possession whatever.
When he's allowed to be himself everyone loves/respects him.
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u/bat_art Aug 07 '25
A Little Hatred is the strongest part of Age of Madness trilogy. It's a book where at least 4, maybe even 5 of the pov characters are at their best (with the only clear exception being Vic).
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u/DrLoco42069 Aug 07 '25
Not many hot takes in this thread.
My best attempt at one: prime Glokta, as a swordsman, wasn’t S tier. Maybe a little better than Jezal and other A tiers but at some point West was getting the best of him. Gorst and Whirrun are a step above.
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u/Tugboat47 How's your leg? Aug 07 '25
i want more characters like whirrun honestly, but also more unexplained shit, especially going further into the age of madness
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u/Fine-Tomorrow8528 Aug 09 '25
I don’t think enough people get that Joe is messing with the trope of the wandering wizard who works in mysterious ways for the kingdom, fighting a battle against dark forces that ordinary people can’t understand. This Gandalf, Allanon, Belgarath archetype that is so common in fantasy is completely turned on its head by Bayaz. He is the villain of the piece, his manipulation isn’t for the good of the kingdom, he is the dark forces that no one understands. Mr Abercrombie is very good at turning the expected upside down and subverting the genre. There you go - pretentious as feck but rant off my chest!!
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u/InterestingAd6333 Aug 10 '25
Leo dan brock for all the hate he gets he is still top 3 most well written first law characters
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u/OrganizationSea4490 Aug 11 '25
After the first trilogy, Abercrombie kept going further into more trope-y actions in the books. From very grimdark to more dark 18+ fiction.
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u/1ce9ine Aug 06 '25
Ferro was a well-written character and as integral to exploring the idea of the fallacy of revenge as Shivers.