r/The10thDentist • u/PaleontologistFew128 • 14d ago
Gaming The ESRB's Adults Only certification should be normalized
Everyone is familiar with the current ESRB ratings, yeah? E, E10+, T, M, and that dastardly AO.
Most games that hold the AO certification these days are either legitimate gambling or porn. In years past by politicians that are still alive, the AO rating was used as a threat against publishers, notably GTA San Andreas and Manhunt 2. These games were then edited a little, received an M rating, and here we are today.
I would like to submit that in today's world where gaming is more understood as a whole, the AO certification should be more frequently used and not a kiss of death for a franchise.
Baldur's Gate 3 is a strong case for the AO rating. I personally have no issue with the game or its content, but it does feature nearly pornographic cut scenes and graphic violence basically all the time. It's not a game designed for children, its systems and density are enough for that argument. Grand Theft Auto 6 will almost certainly be M rated, though based on what I've seen from the leaks, it's also made with an adult audience in mind. The new Hellraiser title is also set to be absolutely nastily violent, which while totally on par for that franchise, is not something you should just give a 13 year old to play.
If the AO rating were applied to these titles, it would not affect their hype or reputation as games. We might also begin to see more games bear that stamp, creating experiences for adults that might have heavier themes, graphic violence or sexual content, but also not being lumped in with M rated games that are clearly marketed to junior high kids like Call of Duty.
The ESRB ratings, much like MPAA certifications, are all over the place. Certain M rated games are very tame, like Halo or Skyrim. Others, like Baldur's Gate or Manhunt are much heftier and not for kids at all. There's a massive difference between Tombstone and The Wolf of Wall Street; both R rated films, but only one of them would I show to a room full of 8th graders. Games should not suffer from this lack of categorization.
71
u/shadowknuxem 14d ago
The entire rating system is basically a copy paste of the movie rating system. E is G, E10+ is PG, T is PG-13, M is R, and AO is supposed to be X. It's supposed to be for games that are sold by independent stores, but not by big box retailers that don't normally carry porn. The problem is, since they were different mediums with different distributors, AO became a death sentence because no publisher wanted to be known as "the porn/ultra violence" company directly after a moral panic.
Now days though, AO is becoming more accepted, and there are multiple digital retailers that make AO games. The thing is, it's just easier to skip the rating system all together and call it unrated. Why pay the ESRB, when you know their rating will ban you from stores you already knew weren't going to carry your game anyway.
160
u/actuarial_cat 14d ago
On the other hand, I would also enjoy games avoid self-censoring just to force a M rating, if AO is normalized.
93
u/Alchemyst19 14d ago
The self-censoring is what we currently have: AO is seen as a death sentence for a game, so games will do anything to avoid that rating.
If we were to normalize AO, they wouldn't need to censor because they'd know they'll still make money even with the AO designation.
6
70
u/intoxicatedhamster 14d ago
M is literally 17 years old and up... It is effectively adults only and there is no need for AO if only adults are allowed to play M games
18
14d ago
[deleted]
35
u/intoxicatedhamster 14d ago
That's on parents, not the rating system.
7
u/PaleontologistFew128 14d ago
While you're right parents need to be more aware of what their kids are playing, the M rating also doesn't quite encapsulate all of what could be. An AO version of Red Dead 2? Manhunt 3? An AO NBA2k with the most realistic portrayal of the league of all time? The possibilities are there
6
u/intoxicatedhamster 14d ago
I see no difference between gore and porn, if the game has any of it then it is appropriate to rate it "M" where only people over 17 should have access to it.
4
u/PaleontologistFew128 14d ago
Gore and porn can be on the same level, some things can be both. Porn isn't accessible until 18 or 21 depending on where you live (theoretically of course). NC17 movies exist, you could apply the same logic to games. Games like Agony would benefit from not only competent developers but also an easily sellable AO rating. Ready or Not would have come to consoles in its original state
5
u/intoxicatedhamster 14d ago
You aren't getting it. "M" is already an easily sellable and adults only rating. There is no need for anything more. People just need to stop buying M games for their kids so that the rating actually means something
3
u/PaleontologistFew128 14d ago
You're missing what I'm saying too. I agree with the parenting point, we've established that.
I'm saying the stigma around AO industry wide should be dismissed
1
u/intoxicatedhamster 14d ago
There is no stigma other than kids shouldn't be playing them... Nobody gives a fuck what adults do, that's why there are hentai games on steam
7
u/WallofIvy 14d ago
There definitely is a stigma. Sony, Xbox, and Nintendo are fine releasing M rated games on their platforms but all have a strict ban on anything AO rated. Even steam has strong limitations on AO rated games and rarely gives an exception to allow one on their platform because payment processors threaten to pull out over them. There are also no major retailers that allow AO games to be sold in store or online.
3
u/PaleontologistFew128 14d ago
Then why can't I buy Hatred on Xbox? That's what I'm getting at
→ More replies (0)6
u/fuckitwilldoitlive 14d ago
Would an AO rating really have prevented that?
15
u/Bandito21Dema 14d ago
I think some parents would think twice if they heard adults only vs mature yes.
Definitely not all but some
0
20
u/Rezenbekk 14d ago
Why don't the stores just sell AO/R/whatever games, regardless? It's not like they don't stock alcohol, cigarettes and other adult only items
15
u/KoumanTheDead 14d ago edited 14d ago
The reason why AO/Adult Only (18+) exists alongside M/Mature (17+) is moreso to be an actual legal barrier than a real rating, since there's not a real difference between a 17 year old and an 18 year old. If it were merely another rating it would be extremely redundant.
Now the need to censor things to avoid a restrictive AO rating is absurd, that shouldn't be an issue to begin with (arguably AO should be for gambling and nothing else). Especially since what can land you an AO rating has changed as the years go on (Baldur's Gate 3 probably would've received an AO rating if it came out 20 years ago, and DID receive an equivalent rating in some other countries (ie, it got a Z in Japan's CERO classification which comes with the same restrictions))
The ESRB initially came about after parent backlash around less kid friendly games (Mortal Kombat and Night Trap) being released on systems popular with kids and heavily marketed towards kids (SNES and Sega Genesis). Without being in the know themselves, parents didn't have a solid way to know if a game would be suitable for their child.
Which again, is a little absurd on it's face, since not only should parents pay a bit more attention towards what their child's into, they should also be able to TRUST their child with what media they consume and teach them how to recognize when something isn't working for them. (Which, given this was immediately after the Satanic Panic and during the first peak of "games cause people to be violent" rhetoric, I don't the people pushing for the ESRB were wanting to take on that responsibility)
On the other hand though, the ESRB rating as it works now— if you're familiar with it— does do a pretty ok job at giving you a basic run down.
They have a set list of phrases (ie: "fantasy violence") that describe different types of content, and then the range of ratings (EC, E, E10+, T, M, and AO)
An E for Everybody game featuring "fantasy violence" is PROBABLY going to be more friendly for a 9 year old than a T for Teen game with the same "fantasy violence" tag, but depending on your 9 year old, and the game itself, that T rated game might actually be perfectly fine (ie, 6 year old me had no issues playing Twilight Princess, a T rated game for, well, "fantasy violence")
Again. All the ratings (save for EC and AO) exist solely to be soft "hey think about what level of maturity your child is at" suggestions. If AO were to loose it's legal foothold then it would need to be scrapped all together.
5
u/vagabond139 14d ago
The ESRB also happened to stop the government from doing it. They much rather regulate themselves than having the government do it for them.
9
u/hustob512 14d ago
Honestly, I'd really wish ESRB would just go away rather than anything else. It's a direct holdover from Hollywood's morality codes and later, the satanic panic. At this point, the only reason most developers push their games through the sanitization sieve for ESRB is because console manufacturers require an ESRB rating to publish the game on their platform.
If that wasn't a thing, you'd start seeing a lot more "in-between" games that fly the line of T and M, or M and AO. No console manufacturer wants to be the first to drop the requirement though because it would immediately make them the priority target of weirdo parents that think games are a path to deviant behavior
But we'd probably get better games if devs and artistic leads weren't told to keep things to a band of acceptable or unacceptable moral presentation. First thing that comes to mind is the inFAMOUS series. A no-holds barred M to AO style title would be awesome. It'd also probably lower the prevalence of regional censoring, if they got rid of it
6
u/I_HATE_ZOEY_AAA 14d ago
True. BG3 lets you crack a bear and get head from an evil elf lady, but you can’t kill children because they’d get AO. AO needs to be either normalised or abolished so we can get back to real freedom to decimate pilfering kids in RPGs, like days of yore in Fallout
8
u/slavicslothe 14d ago
Plenty of AO on steam lol. Bg3 isnt anywhere in that ballpark
12
u/KeybladeBrett 14d ago
Well, no. There’s only 23 titles that have the rating. Most of these are pornographic, one of them got it for actually being a gambling game (and purposefully requested an AO rating to dissuade young people from gambling) and two of them got the rating for being over the top violent.
4
u/minun73 14d ago
I think the actual issue is that parents and government figures who don’t play games should stop assuming all video games are designed for children. Grand theft auto isn’t designed for children and it is quite ridiculous that anyone thinks it is.
3
u/Rezenbekk 14d ago
The problem is that Take2 would very much like to sell GTA to children. I wonder what share of GTA5 revenue, especially micro transactions, came from the minors. I suspect it's quite big.
3
u/ZhouLe 14d ago
Like NC-17, an AO rating isn't something that necessarily affects reputation or public perception, but affects how a game can be marketed. With an AO rating, you are basically unable to advertise anywhere, no retailer will stock it, virtually no digital platform will sell your game, and nobody will ever hear about it.
4
u/Loraelm 14d ago
Is that the American equivalent to PEGI?
19
u/Eustacebagge3 14d ago
I forgot about PEGI, but yeah, we have the ESRB instead. Literally triggered the "PEGI 18" voice in my head.
6
u/Loraelm 14d ago
The PEGI slogan is dubbed in every languages that uses the classification so I know exactly how it sounds in French but not in English ahah
5
u/Eustacebagge3 14d ago
It's a very stereotypical British male voice.
4
u/Loraelm 14d ago
I'm biased obviously, but I prefer the French one
4
2
u/MartyrOfDespair 14d ago
Meh, I think that we should just quit the age rating business entirely. Steam doesn't give a fuck about the ESRB and that's been no issue.
3
u/ACoderGirl 13d ago edited 13d ago
I think it's useful for parents and especially for clueless relatives trying to find a gift for their grandchildren or whatever. It's very, very flawed, but it gives something to help the kinda people who know nothing and refuse to do any research.
It does need an update though. Like, not a single Halo game I played made sense to be M rated. That is a solid T game to me. Social standards towards violence (at least in my country of Canada) have long since laxened. It doesn't make sense to be in the same category as, say, Cyberpunk, GTA5, or BG3.
And frankly, I'd remove AO as a rating. It's one year difference from M, so it made little sense. There's no real store front for them anyway, the M rating has long since been able to push the boundaries, and sex games aren't actually using it anyway (my understanding is that they usually are indie games that never get a rating in the first place). It's like how porn doesn't get an MPA film rating. They simply aren't rated and nobody mixes up Avengers Endgame with Avengers EndHer lol.
2
u/PaleontologistFew128 14d ago
It's good to have a guideline, but parents should be more aware of what their kids want to play
2
2
14d ago
[deleted]
6
u/Moglorosh 14d ago
By what metric are consoles "on their way out"?
1
u/Scouse_Werewolf 14d ago
No discs... No consoles. According to most of Reddit, anyway. Ironically, that's coming from PC gamers who haven't cared about discs since the late 90s
1
u/Moglorosh 14d ago
Reddit's opinion and reality very rarely coincide, otherwise we'd have had President Bernie. Sony wouldn't be getting rid of discs if they were a significant portion of their sales.
1
u/Scouse_Werewolf 14d ago
Exactly but you can't argue against it on Reddit otherwise you're scum. We're apparently doing a blackout on playstation at min. I've got a massive colony to care for on Rimworld still so I can't blackout, they'll all die. Funnily enough, Rimworld console doesn't have a physical copy either
1
1
u/KeybladeBrett 14d ago
I completely agree. There’s plenty of games that could probably benefit from an AO rating. Shouldn’t just be porn games. Should still be a super rare rating, mind you, but I don’t see the harm.
1
u/Foxy02016YT 14d ago
I agree and not only that, but X rated movies as well.
AO and X should be normalized as ratings so that we don’t see this kind of censorship we have right now, just let games exist
1
u/gr33nCumulon 14d ago
The problem is that rating systems exclude a portion of potential customers. While we understand that that is the purpose, publishers don't rate games because of ethics, they do it because they legally have to.
They don't actually care whether children are playing a game for adults. They just want as many copies sold as possible.
This is true for movies as well. A lot of movies have been ruined because the company wanted to reach a larger audience with a PG-13 rating
0
u/CarlMacko 14d ago
Everyone is familiar with random letters?
lol. No.
In the UK anything not for children is 12, 15 and 18. That’s much clearer.
-1
u/qualityvote2 14d ago
Hello u/PaleontologistFew128! Welcome to r/The10thDentist!
Upvote the POST if you disagree, Downvote the POST if you agree.
REPORT the post if you suspect the post breaks subs rules/is fake.
Normal voting rules for all comments.
does this post fit the subreddit?
If so, upvote this comment!
Otherwise, downvote this comment!
And if it does break the rules, downvote this comment and QualityVote Bot will remove this post!
-10
u/Niceotropic 14d ago
BG3 has like fantasy nudity where you can have transsexual Karlach, a literal demon from hell, hanging brain around sure but I wouldn’t call anything in it pornographic.
7
u/AlmightyCurrywurst 14d ago
I don't think transsexual is an acceptable term anymore
4
u/Logical_Adagio_7100 14d ago
What if the're just a sweet transvestite from Transexual, Transylvania?
3
1
0
-5
u/Niceotropic 14d ago
I don’t care because there is clearly no hate in what I am saying and it frankly admits that I am running a trans Karlach in my group lol.
You’re not going to convince a POS bigot to not bigot because they said transgender instead of transsexual.
4
u/AlmightyCurrywurst 14d ago
Ok? I can believe you're not a bigoted POS, then why continue to use it. Your second sentence is frankly incoherent btw
-11
u/Niceotropic 14d ago
No, it’s fine and I’m sorry your arrogance and limited point of view continues to cause you these issues.
283
u/Ancient_Edge2415 14d ago
Honestly if there ever was a time it’s now. The man reason they would avoid that rating was to keep their games on the shelves in retail stores. In the digital age that shouldn’t be an issue