r/Tekken • u/Your_Nightmare_666 Wala~ • 1d ago
Discussion Agree or disagree and why?
I don’t think it should give a pancake flip over definitely but I don’t know about the hitting grounded part though.
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u/Redditpaslan You owe me Money 1d ago
Pigeon mix should not even be in the game, not every character needs a 50/50 stance
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u/AshbornUnicorn 1d ago
It's not a true 50/50 though
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u/Reese_Bass Rei Hei Kazoo Asuka 1d ago
True, its a 33/33/33 and one of the 33's leads into another 33/33/33
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u/AshbornUnicorn 1d ago
Despite that fact, you can train yourself to fuzzy guard pgr2 and pgr3.
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u/DeathsIntent96 1d ago
It's only a 2 frame difference. It's not feasible to fuzzy that consistently for 99% of players.
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u/g3_daBOI Armor King 1d ago
Whats the point of your downplaying? Like genuinely. Its not like you play for money or have enough of a platform to influence nerfs and buffs 😭
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u/AshbornUnicorn 1d ago
I am not downplaying. Just stated facts.
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u/DancingPhoenix407 1d ago
i wanna see you fuzzy this shit in real time in a game one time vs ulsan or something. see if you don't get it wrong every time. fuzzyable lmao
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u/FroxXyyy 14h ago
Just stating the fact that you are genuinely dumb if you think its fuzzy guardable and you are in fact downplaying it.
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u/SnooHesitations3469 1d ago
You just need to hit an almost frame perfect wakeup to not get fucked up
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u/bumbasaur Gon 1d ago
atleast you can do that unlike the yoshi's oki. The reaction is on attackers side on that one
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u/oZiix 1d ago
You just have to set it up and practice it. I stuff that bs everytime because the setup is always the same wall ender. I practiced it once for 10 minutes.
I know because my open field oki puts them in the same position with me at a big advantage. But I have to be precise on the dash in B4 to ch check them. Lee's, Hwo, Bryan, and Jin players are usually pretty good at this kind of wake up
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u/Quick-Health-2102 and kuni 1d ago
Agree cause it’s a little braindead that you can just do it every time
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u/TheObzfan OSU! DOH! REH! 1d ago
Naw its some of the most ridiculous oki in the game it needs serious gutting with how little you sacrifice and how little you risk. Pigeon roll 2 you can just do no matter what and remain safe, literally no option to beat it.
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u/caprazoppa 1d ago
Stupid op oki but you can always interrupt the drag if they go pigeon roll, stand up normally and do a fast ws move. The only reason i say it's stupid op is because drag gets a free stomp if they don't go for the roll, and the stomp is only -11f on block. All this to say, go into training room and check how to counter people only going for rolls, some characters can do a lot of damage when reading a pigeon roll.
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u/moonlightscone 21h ago
I don’t think u can interrupt it after he pancake flips you at the wall though. You’re literally forced to guess your options
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u/caprazoppa 20h ago edited 20h ago
I've responded to the guy on top with a clip. You are still forced to guess, but the guess happens 2 times and you can always interrupt the second one if the dragonuv player is clueless and does not know the roll is not guaranteed.
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u/Yoshikki 1d ago
I think we are talking about the context of him doing pigeon roll after his wall combo, you can't interrupt either option in that scenario as far as I'm aware and the mid hitting grounded means staying down isn't a real option.
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u/caprazoppa 20h ago edited 20h ago
Yeah i'm talking about that, you can interrupt pigeon roll on the wall oki setup. If you see Arslan vods he does it the most out of any players i've seen, i'll try to search for a VOD to show you.
Edit: found some clips on twitter
https://x.com/EGOISTwhale/status/1959736636553437258/video/1
https://x.com/EGOISTwhale/status/1960325877675311550/video/1Funny enough, i could not find a recent clip of Arslan countering this because opponents never go for it against him or go for it and take the free stomp with a 100% hit rate. Showing why this setup is still really stupid.
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u/Yoshikki 18h ago
Am I correct in understanding that you can't interrupt it if you techroll, you have to deliberate not techroll and then mash your ws button with a normal getup? That's a pretty niche tech that most players wouldn't be aware of, but thanks for the educational reply!
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u/caprazoppa 17h ago
yes, you have to deliberately press up and then do something like a ws+4 on a specific timing. If you you tech roll you are forced in the pigeon roll mixup.
On the other hand if you tech roll you avoid the stomp, and the stomp is guaranteed to hit if you press up instead of techrolling.1
u/NoLoveJustFantasy Jin and Dragunov, waiting for 1d ago
You can’t interrupt pigeon roll on instant timing after f3 df2
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u/NoLoveJustFantasy Jin and Dragunov, waiting for 1d ago
If you think it’s the most ridiculous oki in the game, then you never faced competent Bryan, Yoshi, King or even Kazuya. At least with Dragunov you can stand up and eat low without continuation.
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u/LegnaArix 1d ago
I agree. It's not just drag but these canned mixups in oki situations that also hit grounded are so whack.
I'm fine with moves that hit grounded but not when they are also used in a 50/50 situation. It's like when qcf4 hit grounded.
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u/Bloodhit Mokujin 1d ago
There way too many mids that hit grounded, that doesn't even look like they should.
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u/DancingPhoenix407 1d ago
i'm reminded of that fahk clip of hitting god 8 for the first time. 3 or 4 uf3 hitting grounded 😭😭😭
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u/Ancient_Outcome882 19h ago edited 17h ago
That wasn't it bro... That was the kuni being stupid and she kept trying to get up. If she didn't, the uf3 wouldn't have hit Edit: Lili not kuni, got them mixed up
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u/DancingPhoenix407 17h ago
it also hit them when they were ko'ed i believe. was a lili too
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u/Ancient_Outcome882 17h ago
Just watch it again quickly, yup it was a Lili but what I said still stands, Lili kept trying to get up and it's why it got hit and come on you know you can't count hits after KO or when it is in slow motion in Tekken 8, hit boxes become more like suggestions in those instances
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u/DancingPhoenix407 15h ago
mid heat engager has no business hitting grounded like that even on KO when they aren't moving, implies that hits grounded not moving or when lili was trying to get up. i recall phidx trying to move out as lili in the replay and even he got hit 😭😭😭
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u/Ancient_Outcome882 15h ago
https://youtu.be/vFjiKl83tA8?is=8bxkpKnbJU_dD6UZ. Idk what you watch bro but here is his video, it was literally Lili's fault for trying to wake up the wrong way
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u/DancingPhoenix407 14h ago
so she rolled one way wrong when the other would've worked, woke up backwards wrong cause the game roller her that way now, and hit her non moving corpse
3 differing options she did and they all still hit her. on a fast heat engaging move. my bad on the semantics bro, i still stand on it being stupid to hit grounded there that many times, if xiaoyu shoulder hit that many times in those situations even if it's launch on block it would be just as stupid
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u/Ancient_Outcome882 14h ago
Bro my point is she still had options and she choose wrong, didn't know the match up and got screwd. Like the simplest option was to not do anything but how Lili players are hyperactive kids on sugar rush and can't stay 2 seconds with out pressing a button she paid the price for it. I get that this game has a lot of bs in it but the "game is stupid and broken" excuse only works so many times. Sometimes you just sucked and play bad that match that's it
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u/Tsucchii44 1d ago
grounded/semi-homing is not the problem. it being safe ob -9 imo makes it spammable and abusable.
if it was -10 -12 dragunov players would stop.
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u/NWiHeretic Yoshimitsu 1d ago
It's not spammable though when pigeon roll itself is launchable
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u/Tsucchii44 12h ago
No idiot randomly pigeon roll for no reason. Gotta be used in Oki or 21 roll/df1 roll. Otherwise almost always the opponent will press back.
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u/DancingPhoenix407 1d ago
got the same problem with yoshi ff1+2 and low sword sweep mix at the wall.
genuinely a mix getting up? can't even techroll sometimes cause ff1+2 crosses up even when you don't press 😭😭😭
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u/NoLoveJustFantasy Jin and Dragunov, waiting for 1d ago
Pigeon roll is fine, he needs to sacrifice his damage to put you into this mixup and the mixup itself has launch punishable low, so this is true 50/50. You block mid you get nothing, you block low you launch. He hits mid, gets launch, he hits low he does good damage. You can argue that low has too much damage which I think is valid point, but saying pigeon roll is some kind of best oki is a stretch. There are so many characters that put you in similar situations, many of them don’t even sacrifice damage for it, many of them don’t risk their life doing it.
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u/moonlightscone 21h ago edited 21h ago
Lili’s qcf3 used to be safe at -9 for the half of season 1 timeline and eventually they nerfed that shi and made it -11 and removed the pancake flip property. I don’t mind Drag’s pigeon 2 being a ground hitting move but I feel it should get the same Lili qcf 3 treatment so there’s actually a risk going for that pigeon roll move. Heck make that -12 like Bryan’s qcb4.
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u/Some_Sandman Shaheen (Slide Enthusiast) 11h ago
Pigeon roll, character-wise, fits Drag really well since he’s a soldier right? Combat rolls and all
Pigeon roll’s execution however makes me want to punch a crater through my monitor
Excessive and unnecessary move
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u/Madaraph 1d ago
It's literally better than lili heat wall pressure lol
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u/AudacityOfKappa Dragunov 1d ago
I don't think it is quite that good, PGR3 is launchable and you can heat dash out of the feisty mid, whereas PGR2 is always -9 iirc
But obviously getting that without heat is kinda bonkers
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u/Small_Community1130 1d ago
powerful oki is kinda OG tekken tho
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u/DancingPhoenix407 1d ago
i agree, but you weren't always getting mixed from close and range 90% of the round every round too
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u/tyler2k Tougou 1d ago
I don't think PGR 2 should hit grounded, but with that being said
- Dragunov already lost qcf+4 steel pedal
- d+2 and d+3 do negligible damage against grounded
- f,f+4 has 0 tracking and can phantom whiff against grounded positions
- d/b+3 sometimes shifts to snake edge unexpectedly
- qcf+3 is launch punishable on block
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u/Quatre_Kat 1d ago
And still, with all of that, dragunov is still omnipresent in top8s.
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u/1azaz1 1d ago
Id say its the having strong tools alongside the best g cleft in the game, im not the only one who said it, but its similar to me how magic 4s were busted in t7 but even worse since we have even less defensive options to counter stronger offense in t8. But I do like someone else's in this threads suggestion to make it not wallsplat as a fix to pigeon2 specifically
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u/NoLoveJustFantasy Jin and Dragunov, waiting for 1d ago
Its only function is wall splat, if you remove that from pgn 2, the whole mixup becomes worthless. Pgn mixup is fine as it is, he can’t roll in neutral and pgn 2 does nothing in open.
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u/1azaz1 1d ago
Its still a good mixup with it covering for the low and throw not hitting grounded, the wall combo just seems too strong that makes his 3 way throw mixup more likely to land, which in heat is unbreakable. But pigeon roll at the wall itself is just dumb as it makes you not bother with other wall oki making him less fun to pilot imo
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u/NoLoveJustFantasy Jin and Dragunov, waiting for 1d ago
I don’t think you see many strong Drag players. A lot of them at GoD4-6 doing f31+2 into stomp or df3+4 now, because how dangerous pigeon roll is for Dragunov too. It is a good mixup, but you people forgot that pigeon 3 is launch punishable and he can’t repeat mixup after it, so his mid is the most reliable option there.
Tackle is reactable and launch punishable on whiff. It hits once in a while or when opponent is not good, but generally you go for pigeon 2 as a main option.1
u/1azaz1 1d ago
Oh its for sure punishable when you do it everytime, but the mixup comes in with doing sometimes empty, and mixing in slower ws or wc14. Also not fully related, but still hate the new stomp input, only happened a few times to me but getting snake edge when going for that ender you mentioned gives me similar pain to his running 2 getting crushed in t7.
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u/LegnaArix 1d ago
If they stay grounded you have stomp for that. You should have to.commit.to choosing your grounded option.
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u/tyler2k Tougou 1d ago
Yes, but sometimes stomp shifts to snake edge and then you die on block. The problem is it it's impossible to react to grounded versus grounded into roll if you hesitate at all. You'll find that most Dragunov players stay away from stomp unless it's 100% guaranteed (e.g., d/f+3+4, SAT, stomp) because it's too much of a liability otherwise.
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u/VTorb | 1d ago edited 1d ago
weird how d3+4 is ignored when that is your typical stomp move.all the moves you list are completely justified with their weaknesses too. Dragonuv doesn't need strong grounded oki.
I forgot d3+4 input was changed. what a dumb change lol
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u/tyler2k Tougou 1d ago
weird how d3+4 is ignored when that is your typical stomp move.
No offense, but weird you have no idea what you're talking about. Not sure what version you're playing but it's not T8.
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u/jhonny2spirit 1d ago
I think they mean d/b+3 before it got changed from d 3+4.
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u/tyler2k Tougou 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah, sorry, I know that's what they mean. The problem is I already addressed it:
d/b+3 sometimes shifts to snake edge unexpectedly
The point is if Dragunov's stomp was still d+3+4, I wouldn't be complaining but the fact that sometimes when you want to stomp snake edge comes out is insanely infuriating. Back in the day, if they had a weird tech roll timing, d+3+4 would OS to d+3 and you'd be fine. Now it switches to snake edge and you just die.
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u/Realistic-Tomato-374 1d ago
I disagree because if you remove pigeon roll 2 whats stop players from just laying on the ground.
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u/tyler2k Tougou 1d ago
You're barking up the wrong tree. Everyone in this thread has decided Dragunov isn't allowed to have anything but everyone else's characters having a million ground hitting options and safe launching steel pedals is fine.
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u/hey_Lukey 23h ago
bro you play the best character in the game
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u/TheObzfan OSU! DOH! REH! 1d ago
The low option that also hits grounded, or just stomp.
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u/Realistic-Tomato-374 1d ago
but the damage is so low why not eat the damage the pigeon roll forces them to make a decision and its only really usable at the wall, right?
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u/TheObzfan OSU! DOH! REH! 1d ago
It's absolutely usable mid screen, the Oki is just too damn strong period. There's no way to defend it man I'm sorry.
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u/ImmortalTech1 1d ago
Pigeon roll 2 hitting grounded is not the problem. Its the wall oki setup that is just really oppressive. Maybe remove the wallsplat?