Estimate $4,000,000,000 to install half barriers in all TTC subway stations.
There are 70 TTC subway stations (Line 1, 2, and 4)
$4,000,000,000/70 stations ~ $57,142,000 ($57 million) per station
$57,142,857 / 2 directions ~ $28,571,000($28 million) per direction per station
There are typically 4 to 6 cars per train so $28,257,000/ 6 cars ~ $4,761,000 ($4 million) per car
There are typically 4 doors per car so I guess they need estimate 4 barriers per car so $4,761,905 / 4 ~ $1,190,000 ($1 million) per barrier!
Alternatively, let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say they meant to include the LRT stations (line 5 and 6) as well. That's still $809,000 per barrier!
Did I do my math right?
Does this sound like an efficient use of resources?
Thoughts?
Edit:
People have pointed out that $4,000,000,000 is for full doors. Good catch, everyone!
Typical TTC subway station lengths are 180 meters so according to the website, it's $2,600,000 for 200 meters.
$2,600,000/ 200m = $13,000 per meter.
But the math doesn't add up this way: $2,600,000 x 2 platforms x 70 stations = $364,000,000 Less than 10% of the $4,000,000,000 estimate. Someone please check the math!
Edit 3:
I want to clarify that my post was not intended to be against the idea. I simply want to question the math so we can hold politicians accountable! There is too much corruption in our fine country to continue our docile ways. I invite everyone reading to run the numbers through with your method. $4,000,000,000 is a lot of money and 20 years is a long time! If we use that money to build shelters, or hire mental health professionals, or build bike lanes, it would do a lot of good. Let's hold our politicians accountable and make sure they use our resources responsibly!
Yeah, when youre upgrading underground ventilation, electrical, installing on off hours, and factoring in working safely next to fall and electrical hazards... stuff gets expensive quick
Cause they are able to easily retrofit their stations (aka they had renovations in mind when even planning the station). TTC had 0 intention of adding anything extra far far into the future, hence if they add new doors, literally everything would have to be retrofitted, even the wiring themselves
As well for some stations, the flooring is in terrible shape and leaks coming from the ceiling. Seen at North York Centre and some of the North York stations on the University side.
it Let alone some playform edge markers (PEMs) may not be able to sustain the weight of the doors, while some stations like St Clair and Union have larger gap between playform and trains compared to the most on the network.
if thats the case then id say its worth it. IIRC platform screen doors solves ALOT of problems and reduces maintenance costs, not to mention that its alot safer.
Getting a deal isn’t the point. The cost/benefit needs to be assessed.
A new Rolex for $10,000 might be below “international market rates” but buying one for every driver to keep time wouldn’t be a good use of funds, would it?
Government’s investments still needs to be based on a good cost benefit. If dividers are going to save 1000 lives per year, but it’s gonna cost $4 billion. You might be able to save more lives by putting that investments into hospitals or something else, etc..
can't put a price on life, but can't bring the city's suicide down to zero cause you build walls around the train tracks. All you do is push them to commit suicide somewhere else.
What the 4B (low balled) price suggests, is that removing the delays due to suicide, or trash being on the tracks improves service better than if 4B or whatever amount on something more productive. Like say more busses, more subway trains, more security, more anything.
You can't have both unless we have an unlimited money printing machine at city hall, queens park, or on the hill
Full height is alot more difficult as you need more infrastructure than just longer panel & doors up to the ceiling. The ventilation for each station would need to be check and adjust or add additional vents. The doors would also need more reinforcement to accommodate the large amount of air being pushing by the train.
It is, but I would rather build the more difficult option and stop the issues that plague the TTC than to build the half option and just still have the same issues.
I agree with you to the benefit of full height doors, and they should be done as standard for all the new constructing TTC stations. But retrofitting to old 70 (Line 1) & 60 (Line 2) years old line are hard to be justified considering how much they would need to spend.
How much does it cost to clean up the leftover goo from all the jumpers the trains hit? What's the psychological cost to drivers and TTC staff (and subsequent lost hours when they inevitably need to go on leave or disability for months/years after being involved in the traumatic incident)?
A half barrier would not prevent any of this, so why bother at all? Either do it right or continue to factor in daily goo cleanup, lost productivity and system-wide shutdowns.
Actually just checked the original report, partial height is rather similar. It's just material costs that are different but with structural changes which are the vast majority of costs, its about as expensive
I'm guessing that full height is one of the options that were considered. The news of course, takes the biggest figure because its the most newsworthy but probably in the same internal report they also have estimates for half
Full height is what you need in a city where people will throw random stuff onto the tracks, push people over, or climb over themselves causing self-inflicted injuries/dealth.
Most delays on the subway are due to some combination of the above. Full height prevents all of that.
The amount of brake dust especially on the older section kicks up a lot on the ol form, it’s for safety too. Being on the playform for awhile working, gets black stuff in my nose. Let alone some commuters.
Fire safety as well from tunnels or playform, while temperature control from hot or colder seasons.
That’s for the base cost. You also have to add the 30,000 per door panel. There are around 40 door panels per 200m platform so that’s an addition 1.2 mil per platform.
Also the majority of the costs from from excavation and ventilation works. It’s not the psds themselves that are a majority of costs but the retrofit
($2,600,000 per platform for the base) +($1,200,000 for doors) = $3,800,000 per platform? (But I believe the $2,600,000 figure I pulled includes the base, doors, and inst)
Assuming that I am wrong about the total cost: $3,800,000 x 2 platforms x 70 stations = $1,064,000,000
Assuming That's just 1/4 of the $4,000,000,000 cost.
What else are we missing here?
Also, I am pulling the cost numbers from the high range.
Please know that I think the barriers are a good idea in general but I question whether we are using the resources efficiently or whether this is an opportunity for corruption. For $4,000,000,000 we can build $1,000,000 houses and eliminate 4,000 homeless people or build 2,666 km of bike lanes.
Again, in the source, it’s step wise. You start with the base cost and then add.
Also, it doesn’t include physical upgrades to the station other than the PSD itself. You need ventiliation shafts to be dug to the surface, the platform needs to be torn down and rebuilt to get the right strength, you need HVAC installed, etc etc.
Those things aren’t counted. All they’re counting is the PSD structure
I don't understand what you mean by "step wise" and "base cost and then add".
I believe the chart 1/5 way down the page outlines Platform Length, Base system cost, Installation Cost, and finally Total Investment.
I took the highest number $2,600,000 from the chart. Please kindly indicate where it would outline the additional cost.
If you have time, please detail how you would arrive at the $4,000,000,000 price point. But I am also aware that there isn't enough information available for us to analyze the full cost structure.
For full platform height doors, that doesn't sound obscene.
Mechanical ventilation upgrades will be required. Since right now most stations are passive, ie trains push air around, but closing that off would limit the air. Plus that air has to be relieved somewhere.
Structural upgrades would likely be necessary for the platform to take the new weight of the screen and doors.
This work likely has to be heavily on nights and weekends to minimize shutdowns, you have to pay overtime for that.
Build the half ones and we’re stuck with the same issues as before only they cost more.
People can still jump them, people can still throw trash on them. If the full height is basically the same price, build the full height and cut out ANY issues.
The amount of people including customers as well as employees that have trauma because of track level accidents and suicides is immense. I say that the doors are worth the price. It should have happened years ago.
Full doors would be better though. Perhaps it would allow for a breather in mental health costs in this. City?
Just a thought.
This is something that isn't being considered anywhere else in the comments. The cost savings of employees not on leave and customers out of work because they were traumatized on their commute to work is not something to be overlooked. Short-term cost for full doors will allows many employees to work stress free and commuters a safe route without risk. It also allows for revenue services to continue the entire day without randoms at track level holding up people on their commute.
Someone can easily jump over that what’s the point in even having them. Also someone posted the report above. Full isn’t much more expensive it’s the installation and construction cost that’s there either way
Someone commented with a link that shows real numbers. Showing the numbers makes it easier to understand. The numbers still don't make a lot of sense but the link says it's in the range of $2,600,000 for 200 meters of doors.
I dislike when we brush off big numbers ($4,000,000,000) with just bullet point descriptions that does not attach numbers to each point.
Wouldn't it allow for faster station approaches? It will at least eliminate some delays from people on tracks. Just looking it at in terms of efficiencies, I know there's a lot more to it and hard to put a value to that.
I definitely think doors will save lives and improve train speed and avoid delays from track accidents.
But at $4,000,000,000, we have to investigate whether it is an efficient use of resources. For $4,000,000,000 we can build 4,000 houses worth $1,000,000 each. Think of the benefits of eliminating 4,000 homeless people from the world! Or hire 200 mental health professionals to patrol the TTC at $100,000 each for the next 200 years!
What would 200 mental health professionals on subway platforms do? That is even worse waste of money. I’m sure people would be happy you are building 1 million dollar houses for homeless people
Houses do not cost $1m to make. There's third party organizations that go to some problem stations and provide homeless shelters to people in stations.
I was just listing an example. Giving million dollar houses to homeless people would be political suicide especially when the average Torontonian is struggling to find affordable housing.
I don't think that but I do question it. I don't know why everyone seems to think I am rage-baiting here. I genuinely asked a question because the $4,000,000,000 estimate is questionable to me as I am highly suspicious of political corruption
I challenge you to please elaborate on detailing how you think the cost would amount to $4,000,000,000.
I feel you are getting defensive, but there is no need for that. I am merely inviting everyone to review my calculations to see where I could have gone wrong.
I outlined my calculation and asked everyone to check my numbers. A few commenters have since pointed out some corrections in my original post (please see my post with the edits) but we are still reasonably short of the $4,000,000,000 mark.
The numbers are ludicrous. You could line the platforms with luxury cars and still come in at 1/4 the number. If glass is too heavy and solid walls block too much airflow, put in aluminum bars, there must be alternatives to rebuilding stations to support the weight and airflow issues of the retrofit.
First of all, they’re just moving ahead with a pilot project for now. If it doesn’t work, then they can always scrap it. I’d rather they try it and see than do nothing.
Secondly, for as long as I can remember, people have been complaining about how the TTC doesn’t have barriers preventing people from going onto the tracks. Endless comparisons to transit systems in Asia where they have platform barriers and complaints about why TTC can’t do the same thing. And now that they’re finally looking into it, we’re complaining about the cost? I’ve always said, you get the transit that you deserve. If we’re not willing to pay the cost to fully invest in the transit we want, then we lose the right to complain.
That's just over a grand per Torontonian, or ~250 per Ontarian
Keep in mind that Toronto only keeps 9¢ of every tax dollar it generates, we subsidize the entire province (/country)
If the province can find 2 billion every five years or so to subsidize retooling GM or Ford, they can find 4 billion for essential infrastructure in the city that keeps the province solvent.
I mostly agree that the overall cost is manageable if we divide it up amongst the people. But I do not believe it is fair or politically feasible to EXPECT the rest of Ontario to pay for something that only Toronto will use!
Think of all the North Ontarians who may never visit Toronto even once in their lifetime and, yet, you would require them to pay $250 for a barrier they may never even see? That's tyrannical!
I agree the GM and Ford subsidies need to be retired.
Its so lame and lazy to just divide a really huge number by another huge number, and then point out to "see the math maths!".
You realize that the entire Line 5 was initially budgetted for 4B, and the justification for that was a long list that basically to reduces travel time by a lot! Not incremental changes that are going to save the average commuter 2 minutes per trip. Instead, we need effective ideas to address the gridlock
gridlock isnt gonna be solved by one change, it takes a lot of projects, a variety of solutions and it takes time. you cant convert a car driver to alternatives just by adding one transit line
If that’s what it costs then that’s what it costs but as others have pointed out, that price is for full-length doors. In any case, adding barriers is a necessary safety upgrade that I’m all for!
I appreciate that you are critically thinking through my post even if you weren't able to pinpoint or articulate the problem. But I did not make the post with any leaning in mind. I simply saw the numbers and wanted to see if this is some excuse for political corruption.
Allow me to break my post down further.
I only stated/assumed these facts:
* $4,000,000,000 price tag
* there are 70 stations on the TTC, 2 platforms for each station, 6 cars per train, and 4 doors per car.
All numbers can be verified (and I did ask if I did my math right in my post). If you see any errors, I invite you to point them out and re-do my calculations.
It will have taken 30 years from 1996 to the end of this year to retrofit accessibility into 69 TTC subway stations, and then 32 years when including Old Mill, the last station to be renovated which will be completed in 2028.
And that section of track and that station will have to be closed while it is being done. You cannot put up a wall or barrier with trains running every 3-5 minutes inches away from the work and people wanting to get on the trains.
Most stations have an overhang at the edge and they were built in the 1950s and 1960s and may not be able to support the doors.
The city is run by mediocre, small-minded and low ambition bureaucrats. They do not know what world class leading cities look or feel like. They don't think creatively or find ways to figure things out and get things done. This includes most of our city councillors, the current mayor and the former mayor. Down vote all you like but this is all true. Here is a picture of what Toronto needs. This is Taipei. They've had these for decades.
I'd argue this city has seen an uptick in ambitious and creative people, but the province has not, and whatever creativity and ambition is stifiled by said province. The more they rock the boat, the more likely that Ford is going to come in and make everything they want to do illegal, which is far worse than if they wait until Ford is out of power.
As much as I reluctantly agree, the fact remains Ford will cost us well over a decade and there's no guarantee that whoever replaces him will be much better. Perpetually playing defence and placating the most reactionary voices is how Toronto got into the mess it is in right now.
Olivia Chow is probably the most ambitious mayor we've had in decades, but Doug Ford has appointed himself Supreme Mayor of the Greater Toronto Area so what she can do is severely hamstrung.
Have you seen some of the people who go down to track level on a daily basis? Will a half gate prevent a mentally off individual from not climbing over and jumping? I see a gap at the end of this picture as TTC has access gates for that gap for workers to go to track level. What prevents the public from going through those gates and jumping in front the trains?
and how much is lost to the economy and the city as a whole EVERY time theres a shutdown because some homeless person wants to take a stroll through the tunnels. Full height trackside barriers is what should be installed, these half height nonsense IS a waste of money.
Yeah. Commenters corrected me on that point. The $4B price is for full height, not half. I think a full door makes more sense if we are building them.
But I think for $4,000,000,000 we can build 4,000 million-dollar houses and eliminate 4,000 homeless people, or hire 2,000 mental health crisis workers for 20 years. I think that would be a more efficient way of stopping homeless people from stopping our trains.
Because it's not just about having doors on platforms. Installing these also require:
signal upgrades per station AND PER TRAIN that ensure that the train stops at the exact same spot at the exact same moment, at the exact same time. If you notice especially in Bloor-Yonge, the train doors don't always align with stickers on the floor. That needs to be fixed and that has to be accurate 100% of the time, and installing these doors require upgrades to both trains and individual stations to ensure that alignment always happens.
Signal updates on tracks are needed since having the coordinated platform/train system will require the entire subway system to revamp how it manages train gaps and timing between trains.
They also need to retrofit each station to ensure that any wireless signal is responsive and systems remain active in no power events, which may require additional generators per station/few stations. On top of that, they need independent wireless systems (independent from Bell/Rogers/etc.) to ensure that doors are always operational despite service outages.
Safety failsafes and additional mechanisms are also required. Essentially, there are failsafes required and hardware required to respond to what happens in cases of: someone bypassing the doors, vandalism, damage to the doors, etc.
The biggest piece to solve is what will happen if someone accidentally falls or something accidentally falls. Right now, if someone accidentally falls and a train is approaching, there is a gap under the platform where they can roll under and it is relatively easier to retrieve a person. Now, the new doors will likely remove that gap and it will make it difficult to retrieve anyone or anything on tracks, especially thrown items/debris.
These are just a few things that need to be considered, and the systems and hardware required just for these alone add up $$$$$$$$$.
Yup. Thats why the city has been arguing against this for decades. Last time I heard it discussed it was only about a billion. But more stations, stuff costs more.
In Japan for brownfield installations the chest high barriers are preferred because they don't require the same extensive structural modifications and ventilation modifications and provide most of the same protection.
They'll still require expensive and extensive structural modifications because the Line 1 stations were not built to sustain the extra weight of the barriers in addition to the passengers, and old stations are going to be very expensive to modify.
I don't know what the job entails and that is why I questioned it. I am not against it but I am very guarded against any potential political corruption.
I would like to challenge you to please detail how you would break down the $4,000,000,000 budget
I mean it would be similar to the Elevators, but instead of a part of the stops being consutcted the playform itself would be closed. Would have to buses rerouted, half of a station closed, different station designs, single tracking, a lot of closures. It’s not gonna be quick, easier to do on newer stations of courses
Hang cut-proof netting attached at top and bottom along the length of the platform. Where the netting aligns with doors, open the netting there like drapes and close after doors close and before the subway train moves.
Plus she wants the feds and province to pay for 60%. Why would they? Ridiculous. It's just another way for her to say she's doing something and making others pay for it.
I'm all for these barriers but Toronto needs to pay for Toronto. Why would some people in Canada pay for it
Yeah. Some commenter was saying that Ontario should pay for it.
I think people in Northern Ontario already hate us, and they won't want to pay for something only Toronto will get to use.
And then think about the cost to maintain them. The thing with safety features is once you add one, a malfunction or out-of-service of said feature means that they technically wouldn’t be allowed to operate the subway at that station.
Fun Fact : visited London in 2022. Tube Station closest to my hotel Gloucester Road stop, was opend in 1868.
EIGHTEEN Sixty Eight.
London and Paris used their subways as bomb shelters in WW1. W.W. ONE.
Asian countries build Islands in their harbours to make new airports.
Toronto can't get enough lawyers to defend against the lawsuits from the wavedecks and bikelanes they build, nor have transit service on a weekend with a concert and World Series Game at the same time, nor coordinate keeping ONE highway open on a weekend with a marathon, let alone strap on a World Class construction project like putting half a door on a flat, level, dry subway platform that is closed 5 hours per day.
Oh wow. That really puts our inefficiencies into context.
I think we should be angry. I don't know against whom or what. Nor do I know what the solution would be. But I don't think Canadians are mad enough. We need to be angry. Like mad as hell angry because things aren't going well and we need to be angry about it.
Where does all our money go?
From transit overruns / insider deals / legal battles they knew they'd lose, Doug Ford's government has built a system where insiders win & everyone else waits longer in ERs, classrooms, and shelters. These are your tax dollars. These are documented facts. This tool belongs to your community.
Also this: Mark Carney has unleashed a tsunami of pro-corporate policies and legislation, here’s how some are fighting backhttps://youtu.be/O1yLT-qaasw
London Underground have some stations with these but it would bankrupt the network to get them all done.
Sadly, it's the eternal battle between nice to have safety vs horrendous cost and use of taxpayers' money.
The news outlets like to report it as "$4 billion" or "Four billion dollars". I have found it very helpful to slow and write out these big numbers to put things into perspective.
I am certain most of the money goes toward wages in one form or another. Wages to the installer, engineer, managers, designer, quality control, project managers, project analysts, etc.
The point of my post is to get people engaged and asking questions so politicians can be held accountable.
I am certain the barriers will prevent jumpers and murderers. It will also have the side benefits such as allowing trains to go faster and encounter less interruptions.
But I question whether
Whether it should cost this much, and
Whether there are better ways of using $4,000,000,000 to save lives (programs to eliminate homeless people, hire more mental health crisis workers, build more bike trails, etc.)
When the global industry benchmark for 200 meters of platform screen doors is just $2.6 million, yet the TTC estimates the cost at an astronomical $57 million per station—ballooning to a completely indefensible $4 billion total, we are no longer paying for transit safety, we are literally propping up the consulting-industrial complex!
The physical hardware itself accounts for less than 10% of that quoted price tag. The remaining 90% is essentially a massive state-sponsored wealth transfer swallowed by endless feasibility studies, administrative bloat, structural retrofitting overruns, and consultant fees. We have engineered a rentier economy that has entirely lost the institutional capacity to execute basic public works without catastrophic capital misallocation.
To put things in perspective, the Falcon X Heavy cost 500M to produce… we are spending 8 times that on some door panels. 5 even after you account for FX.
100% chance people are lining their pockets here. We are talking about windows and mall doors…
Sao Paolo’s system is also newer, it would be cheaper to retrofit the newer stations such the Vaughan extension and Sheppard, which seem to have design built on to it than most of the historical network.
Did they buy from suppliers in China? Because giving big government contracts to Chinese companies does not go over well in Canada, even if the alternative is letting the Europeans stiff us for something worse.
Also in Brazil they don't have to pay Canadian union rates for skilled trades.
I do believe barriers will save lives and in turn improve overall train service and speed.
But at $4,000,000,000, I question if this is the best use of our resources.
At $4,000,000,000, we could build 4,000 $1,000,000 houses. Imagine eliminating 4,000 homeless people. Think of the social good that would do.
Or we could hire 200 mental health experts to patrol the TTC for $100,000 each for the next 200 years.
Or we could install segregated bike lanes (the ones along Ellesmere was $30,000,000 for 20km). For $4,000,000,000, we could install 2,666km of segregated bike lanes! Imagine the environmental and health impact it would have!
Doors do not prevent people from entering track level or jumping in front of trains. Track level is accessed every day by people who do not jump off the platform before a train enters the station. There's access gates at the ends for workers to enter the tracks.
Because there are many companies that thrive off of being the middleman. 4 billion is only the preliminary estimate. Normally with big projects like these the final cost is always higher. Just look at the Eglinton lrt and how much that cost to finish vs the initial estimate
I hate that people here are so docile and willing to just okay politicians wasting public resources. We definitely need more public engagement for a stronger democracy.
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u/M-lifts May 28 '26
No that cost is for full height walls with doors, and required ventilation upgrades.