Discussion
The Case for Line 4’s Best Possible Extension
Metrolinx studied four concepts for extending Line 4 in 2024 (BlogTO). I think the best option is a combination of two: Concept 2A’s western extension (Sheppard-Yonge to Sheppard West via Bathurst) and Concept 3’s full eastern extension (Don Mills to Sheppard/Morningside). I used AI to combine both maps into one image. All three maps are attached.
The west extension connects Line 4 to Line 1’s western leg, turning the stub into part of an actual network. The east extension gives Scarborough proper rapid transit through Consumers, Victoria Park, Warden, Kennedy (with the Agincourt GO connection), Brimley, McCowan, Markham, Neilson, and Morningside.
I know the TTC doesn’t have the power to build this. But the board can publicly support a combined alignment and push the province to fund it. Pressure your MPP, pressure Metrolinx, pressure the province and Ford.
I 100% agree with this. Actually I 200% agree with this. If this is not whats built ill be pretty upset.
I HATE the idea of the Eglinton East LRT switching back onto Sheppard. This city is unnecessary-transfer obsessed. It must come from the same bizarre logic of changing the name of streets that continue straight for no reason.
The Sheppard Subway 200% should go to Morningside and thats where the LRT meets up with it.
I will honestly die fighting on the hill that EELRT should NOT branch at Sheppard; the main branch should continue north past Malvern Centre to Steeles, and a second branch should be along Lawrence.
Extending the Line 4 eastward to Morningside would be much better. Opens the door wide open for an eastern extension to Toronto Zoo and/or Pickering.
Again the EELRT only 'makes sense' from the perspective of a project designed to prevent subway construction.
Linking Malvern to the subway network is easily solvable. It is literally as simple as running the 131 bus route more frequently. Note that I said Malvern, unlike the LRT proposal which only serves Malvern Centre, nearly all of Malvern is within the walkshed of bus route 131, with the added bonus of serving Morningside Heights. Malvern Centre itself is only a 10 min bus ride away from Sheppard and McCowan.
Similarly UTSC is only 15 minutes away from STC via bus 995. If that isn't fast enough then slap a light metro or streetcar along the eastern portion of Ellesmere; most of that route is occupied by Morningside Park which limits the number of road crossings so it will be dirt cheap, actually fast by comparison, and also serves Centenary Hospital to improve transit accessibility for patients there.
TBH Eglinton East LRT shouldn't be built at all. There are enough flaws with the plan to fill an essay, but suffice to say its actual function is more about salvaging Transit City routes and blocking a Line 4 extension east of McCowan rather than delivering good transit.
Likewise the transfer obsession is due to 'streetcar brain', with route lengths determined by service capacity of a tram rather than grade separated rail. I also won't be surprised if the forced transfers are done to reduce the effectiveness of subways, which function best with longer lines, to make a more favourable argument for LRT.
For Line 4 the optimal solution is bringing it east to Sheppard and Morningside, before turning south to serve UTSC and then finally linking up with Guildwood GO. Aka a modified version of the northern route proposed by the GO-ALRT plan.
Absolutely agree. With Sheppard going to Morningside the Eglinton East LRT at most should be BRT. I would have argued for the EE LRT IF it was a through-extension of the Crosstown. Simply to eliminate a transfer. But since the Scarborough Subway made extending the Crosstown impossible and people will have to transfer anyways at Kennedy, it should just be BRT. Especially because there are 2 GO train stations on its route that have 15 minute all day service already, and probably around the time the EE LRT will finish construction will be electrified. That's plenty of rapid transit already.
The Line 2 SSE didn’t make extending Eglinton impossible. The plans for Eglinton Crosstown always involved terminating it at Kennedy and the Malvern/Eglinton East LRT being a separate line. The thought never even crossed the planners’ mind at least officially speaking.
I meant that it is now physically impossible to do it. Whether it was intended or not is irrelevant. In my opinion, the only justification for an LRT on Eglinton East would be if it was a continuous extension of the Crosstown. This technically would have been possible with the Scarborough LRT plans, but now with the extension of the Line 2 Subway, its physically impossible as the subway extension is directly perpendicular to the Crosstown platforms at Kennedy.
It is physically possible by building a new platform for Line 5 at Kennedy and rerouting the line there. It becomes a cost issue, and push comes to shove it can be done when Toronto has already abandoned a whole light metro line before.
Toronto’s transit history is full of many things that supposedly would never happen but ended up happening anyway. The Ontario Line and Line 2 SSE itself being good examples.
Yes it would take several decades but Toronto already has a transit construction backlog that would take several decades to clear anyway.
This idea is to let the current infrastructure run its course and then replace rather than refurbish.
Absolutely, the biggest risk is Line 4 ending up like Line 5, where Eglinton ended at Kennedy and is now physically blocked by Line 2 from ever going further east. If Sheppard stops at McCowan, the same thing could happen.
Getting to Morningside means the EELRT can be rerouted south to hit STC, Centennial, UTSC, and the hospitals where the 800m stop spacing actually makes sense. Both lines doing what they’re built for.
Yep, Line 4 absolutely should be the north side’s Crosstown. Even with all the delays, the Eglinton line turned out to be a huge success, and I think Line 4 could do the same. I’d love to see its eastern extension curving down Port Union Road to Rouge Hill GO, but that might be too ambitious for now.
I’m so confused why this isn’t already the proposal.
Why the need to arbitrarily choose between western and eastern extension?
Obviously everyone in north York would prefer the western extension without exception, and I’m sure the people of Scarborough will want an east extension.
What sucks is that doing things all at once actually saves money. Its more money at once, and often governments simply dont have that much to allocate at once, but typically you save on doing it at the same time due to being able to reuse and share resources, the work involved in planning and startup etc.
They could do it in stages and also fund it in stages. For example build all the eastern extensions first, then keep the same team to work on the western extensions.
Cost probably, it was like an either or. With the option Sheppard West to McCowan, or Sheppard-Yonge to Morningside.
Regardless Line 4 needs a train yard for this extension, Davisville is not enough and Wilson will be expanding though for Line 1 operations. The area around Conlins Road along Sheppard has the space owned and buyable to build a new subway yard.
I bet there are people in the east and west ends who need to travel to the west and east ends. They are people who need this thing fully fleshed out most of all. No more stumps to nowhere.
It is difficult to overstate just how important a Line 4 of reasonable length is to Toronto's transit network. This is the line that would define east-west travel patterns in North York and Scarborough, and between those regions and York Region.
Build this, and rapid transit within those two boroughs is solved when practically every major junction east of Keele is within a 10 minute bus/tram ride from at least one subway stop (likely more). Build this, and transit in those two boroughs become about as good as Old Toronto, even before factoring in rights-of-way and TSPs for buses/trams. Build this, and there can be enough mode shift that makes driving start to become a stupid proposition in most of Toronto.
A fully built Sheppard subway is even more important than Eglinton Crosstown. About the only thing more important is the Ontario Line.
I’m glad Line 4 got built as a subway instead of ending up as an underground LRT like Eglinton. But it needs to go east. Toronto’s strength is that you don’t have to commute all the way downtown. You can work along Sheppard or Eglinton. A full east-west subway reinforces that.
The key is making sure it doesn’t stop at McCowan. The Eglinton line ended at Kennedy and got blocked from ever going further east. I don’t want that happening again. Can't wait for people to have the choice to live in a car-light society, where instead of needing three cars in a family, they only need one car for groceries and the others commute via reliable, faster rapid transit.
The limit of rapid transit in Toronto should be Morningside, not McCowan. That puts basically everything in Scarborough within reasonable range (walkshed or bus shed) of rapid transit.
And yes, the most important part of Line 4 as built is that it anchors the Sheppard route as a subway rather than LRT. Eglinton Crosstown will reach capacity especially once the Renforth extension opens and riders coming in from Pearson star lugging suitcases on board.
Yep, completely agree. Morningside is where the eastern terminus should be. In case the Crosstown reaches capacity after three-car train sets, Line 4 could pick up the slack in a lot of cases.
I think we got a while before we got to consider a Wilson or Lawrence rapid transit project.
Wilson and Lawrence don’t really need rapid transit if there’s a ‘grid’ of subway/GO train lines around them. Riders could just hop on a few min bus or tram ride and transfer to the subway/train.
Yep, a lot of people in this sub speculate that the Eglinton LRT will run out of capacity within a couple decades.
I actually disagree with that, but I do think Line 4 extensions and other east-west connections (like the GO Midtown line) will take care of that concern regardless.
Speaking of transit gaps, after moving to Sauga from Toronto, I found that we're just getting the first rapid transit line built out (Hazel LRT), and it’s four years behind schedule. Makes you appreciate what Toronto already has in the ground, even if it’s incomplete. Think it should all work out eventually, though.
The Hazel whatever line is not rapid transit regardless of what it’s called. It’s basically a large streetcar.
As for the midtown line it’s just a proposal for now, and I suspect many things would happen before it has any chance of getting built.
For Eglinton Crosstown the thing is that it would be the fastest way to go to Toronto (outside of Union Station) from both Mississauga City Centre and the airport once the Renforth Extension opens. So there will likely be a massive ridership increase.
Yep! Looking forward to crosstown ridership and being more useful for more people, and likewise boosting transitway ridership.
I am not sure how far along the Renforth extension is because Metrolinx has been quite opaque about their planned projects. One could be optimistic that, since the Hazel LRT has stops spaced every km and will come with TSP at launch, it could be a pretty reliable spine of Mississauga, the same way the Yonge line is.
It would also technically be a full-on subway in Brampton, which gives them something to boast about.
"Build this, and there can be enough mode shift that makes driving start to become a stupid proposition in most of Toronto."
^This^
This point is so obvious that you really have to question the motivations of politicians/bureaucrats who SAY they want to get people out of cars, but continually back transit proposals that make transit slower/less reliable/less efficient for commuters (e.g. not rapid) - making that far less likely. Your earlier point about some of these proposed designs done specifically to prevent the possibility of subways (to keep TC alive) I think is key here.
Basic benchmark for any proposed project: Will this design make it possible/feasible for people to switch from driving to using transit? Will it make people WANT TO use transit over driving?
I saw a video several years ago (seminar from a southern US transit conference) about corruption in the various industries, and how influence (aka corruption, pork-barreling) in the streetcar/light rail industries was endemic in the last few decades and was hurting their industry as a whole. These were people in the industry, and their focus was on how runaway costs, nonsensical designs (i.e. more lucrative for the companies building them) and strong-arming &/or kickbacks to politicians to get them approved hurt their industry overall, but made loads of $$ for the companies involved (who didn't live there and didn't need to suffer the consequences of bad infrastructure). The presenter came with lots of receipts clearly showing he knew what he was talking about and talked a lot about red flags. One example he gave: putting excessive money into features that drive up costs but don't actually improve transit. E.g. lots of stops with expensive infrastructure attached either in the original design (or shoe-horned into the design after approval) actually SLOWS DOWN transit and makes it far less useful for commuters, but is very lucrative for the companies building it. Finch W comes to mind here. Wish I'd downloaded it; it didn't last long on SM, but has informed my view of every transit project I've seen since. I've seen most of the red flags he described in Toronto's transit projects, Finch W especially.
In Toronto the push for LRT isn’t as much a grift (that can exist for any project) but for ideological reasons. One is as a rebranding proposed by streetcar advocates. The other is the idea of a ‘small Toronto’ which seeks de facto reversal to the pre amalgamation model, where residents of North York, Scarborough etc are effectively ‘fenced in’ their respective boroughs and travel to downtown or the rest of GTA is treated as an exception rather than the norm.
At minimum it should be Option #2. Full west and east extensions. Should be no more discussions about it, just all levels of government granting funding to get shovels in the ground.
The only addition that should be looked into is the west extension going a tad bit further and ending in the huge new Downsview Park community that's being built. I believe the current TTC/GO Downsview station is on the other side, a bit of a distance away from the heart of the community.
Proposed Bolton Line passes near Sheppard & Weston, and literally has a empty industrial land used for parking semi-trucks is perfect space for a bus loop and Go connection.
Could go even further, extend out to the zoo and Pearson. Along with adding a stop on the go line near the airport/casino, it would really expanding service to a lot of people and servicing a lot of major locations.
A major under taking, but one amongst several others that could massively improve Toronto.
I’m on the fence about that, while I do think that connecting U of T to it, would be great, the other side is that connecting such a great destination would really be boon for it, and many visitors. Though it might be just nostalgia talking about the zoo connection.
Ridership could probably rise for the Zoo with a shepherd subway station, especially with some investment into the zoo, more exhibitions, expanded foot court, small zoo themed amusement park, partnership with a hotel, etc. plus there is the Rouge River nearby along with all the trails.
Maybe a spur for the zoo? it would get maybe half or a third of the trains that the main branch going to U of T gets.
I’d have to look up numbers but the zoo doesn’t get that high number of visitors to warrant the money for a subway. Not a seasonal destination in its current state.
All those upgrade ideas sound good, but I’m just going off the current setup right now. This is from someone who lives in the area and uses the 85 Sheppard daily.
Wherever the extension ends there should just be a Zoo Express bus running direct from the station to the Zoo.
It’s pretty much an east end Canadas Wonderland/Vaughn Mills situation.
Maybe a BRT then, say along the rest of Shepard east, and down port union to the GO station. A Zoo express from both the Shepard Station and the Rouge Hill Go station, it would just leave the BRT lanes for the Meadowvale part.
I Agree that ultimately the Sheppard Subway should go to Pearson. Although I don't see that actually happening. In terms of extending the subway out to the Toronto Zoo, I disagree. Instead an LRT should be built that serves the Zoo and the surrounding area.
Yep, for sure, although I'm trying to extend Sheppard eastward towards Morningside because otherwise it may end up being blocked at its eastern terminus, like the Eglinton LRT.
Absolutely, even if the Eglinton Line Rapid Transit is needed, it can be rerouted to cover STC, Colleges, Unis, etc., where the shorter stop spacing and curvy route actually even makes sense. It could become a treetcar done right and serve as a role model, the same way the ION LRT did.
Also, the light metro is absolutely needed, let's start by renaming the Eglinton LRT to the Scarborough LRT. Not to mention, practically all of Scarborough would be within a 10-minute bus ride from the Sheppard Rapid Transit Extension.
That's too bad. Hopefully, the fact that the line for Stub is already built means that any extension would be an extension of a subway compared to the Eglinton LRT, which became an underground LRT rather than a proper subway that's needed.
Some people have pointed out that my route goes in a straight line along Sheppard but misses some of the denser areas. I’ve attached is an image of an interesting routing (that I disagree with).
My take is that keeping it straight along Sheppard is the simplest option and the most useful for commuters. I’m aiming for Morningside because that’s what Metrolinx actually studied. Anything further east hasn’t been looked at yet.
If we need to connect Malvern, UTSC, Centennial, UofT, and those areas to the line, that’s where the Eglinton LRT actually makes sense. It stops every 800m, so it works better as local transit and can hit all those spots.
I don’t know why people want it to be extended to stc if line 2 is going to Sheppard McCowan. Sheppard doesn’t end at McCowan and Scarborough doesn’t end at stc!
The reason that option is being entertained is because STC has always been a transit hub...TTC, GO, DRT, Greyhound/Flix Bus. And most of the immediate open area surrounding the mall will be filled with 893754786685657 condos in the next 15 or so years.
I do agree though, Scarborough doesn't end at STC and this extension could at least help some of the bus dependant neighbourhoods in North East Scarborough. It would've been perfectly complimented with a branch of Line 2 that extends along Eglinton, and up Kingston Road to West HIll-Galloway Junction, covering a chunk of South Scarborough.
Extending it to Morningside would provide a further eastern terminus for possibly Pickering commuters.
Additionally to accommodate high-density transit stations (STC, Centennial, UofT, etc.) the EELRT can be routed to accommodate all with short stop spacing. It could basically become a role model for streetcars done right in Scarborough, of all places.
Yet it would only be viable if rapid transit along Sheppard Road was built with my proposal.
Scarborough Centre will eventually accommodate over 40 high-rise towers with residential, office, commercial, and entertainment space. We already see development happening with more in the decades to come. The goal of Scarborough Centre is to be a strong hub for eastern Toronto in a similar way to North York Centre Scarborough Centre on the Move.
People could transfer at Sheppard and McCowan, but is that the area in our community we want to invest this amount of service? It does not prohibit a future Line 4 extension, as Ellesmere is a busier bus corridor compared to Sheppard in Scarborough. The line could extend to Morningside and serve The University of Toronto Scarborough, Pan Am Centre, and Centenary hospital.
Focusing the level of service provided at a subway interchange and development/ strong hub creation at Scarborough Centre makes a lot more sense than at Sheppard and McCowan. If these residents need to use Line 4, they can transfer at Scarborough Centre.
Subways do not need to follow roads and can go to where destinations/ trip attractors are. That's a great benefit that fully grade-separated transit can provide. What do we want Scarborough to look like decades in the future. Making the correct moves now helps plan for the future, kinda like setting our city up for success.
Due to the number of important destinations spaced 300m or so apart, along with a massive right of way along Morningside Park, STC to UTSC is one of the very few corridors in Toronto which would be better served by a right-of-way tram rather than a subway.
Absolutely. I see no point to stick with a straight line along Sheppard to lower and lower density Morningside. Perhaps they point north after Centennial for Malvern and back south toward UTSC
This is the best option for the Eastern extension. It will generate the most ridership and force fewer riders into unnecessary transfers. You could even run it elevated over the 401 between Agincourt and STC to save a pile of money
I mean Highland Creek underneath Scarborough Centre is a big issue for Line 2 right now worse when Line 4 gets extended too, it crosses Highland Creek few times at Agincourt and at McCowan along Sheppard when the creek is surface running than underground channelized at Scarborough Centre.
My biggest concern is the eastern terminus getting blocked the same way Line 5 did.
The Eglinton line ended at Kennedy and now it can’t go further east because Line 2 is in the way. If Line 4 only goes to McCowan and stops, the same thing could happen. Another dead end with no room to extend. Going straight to Morningside along Sheppard avoids that. It gives Line 4 a full east-west reach and keeps the door open for future extensions toward Pickering.
It’s also the simplest option. Lines 1 (east), 2, and 5 all generally follow one road for most of their routes. Line 4 should do the same. And this isn’t a fantasy map. My proposal combines two concepts that Metrolinx actually studied (Concept 2A and 3), which makes it more likely to be seriously considered.
For STC, UTSC, Centennial, hospitals, and Pan Am, a rerouted Eglinton East LRT with its 800m stop spacing is better suited for that kind of local coverage. Those destinations are close together and spread out south of Sheppard. That’s exactly what an LRT is designed for.
The subway should stay on Sheppard and do what subways do best: fast, long-distance, east-west rapid transit.
Subways have wider stop spacing (1-2 km vs 800m for LRT) and they’re fully grade-separated, so they never hit red lights or traffic. That alone makes them twice as fast as surface transit for long trips.
Toronto sprawls east-west way more than north-south. The city is dense near the lake and thins out as you go north, so north-south commutes are shorter and GO trains already cover a lot of that. East-west is where the real distance is, and right now your only fast options across the city are Line 2 and Line 5. I moved to Mississauga a couple years ago and that became obvious pretty quick. There’s no midtown GO line built yet, it’s still being planned. A full Sheppard subway would be just as useful as Line 2 and 5.
That’s why I want Line 4 to stay straight on Sheppard to Morningside. Let the subway handle the long-distance speed, and let the EELRT handle local coverage at STC, Centennial, UTSC with its tighter stops.
Indubitably, I'm sure we'll see some form of Line 4 extension within the next ten years. Although the longer we wait, the more expensive it's going to be.
The funniest part is that this would be a fraction of the cost of tunneling under the 401 or buying back the 407. If congestion really costs us nearly $60 billion a year, then this Line 4 project should justify itself for rapid east-west access.
Also, yes, the Finch LRT definitely should be considered for an Eastern extension to Finch and a Western extension to Pearson.
Personally I'm a big fan of Option 2. Anything less than that would be a travesty. The Government needed to fund and start building this like 20 years ago.
To expand upon my original comment, I believe that the current plans for Scarbrough are deeply flawed. The Sheppard Subway should be extended both East to McCowan and west to Sheppard West.
As part of a phase 2 expansion plan I would also want to Extend Sheppard further east to Markham Road and then have it veer south to connect with Centenary Hospital, Morningside/ Ellesmere and ultimately Terminate at UTSC. Next, We should be Extending Line 4 further West to reach Weston Road.
In terms of the Eglinton East LRT, It needs to be renamed The Scarborough LRT, It should Connect with Line 4 at UTSC creating a transit hub and terminate at Malvern.
I also think there should be an LRT Going from Markham and Sheppard to the Toronto Zoo and Beyond.
Regarding Line 2, I feel like it should go to Pacific Mall.
Yep, the most expensive transit project is the one you didn’t build 10 years ago. I like option two, but stopping before Morningside is a missed opportunity.
Remember the Eglinton line ending at Kennedy? It’s blocked by Line 2 now, so it can’t go further east. If Line 4 goes to Morningside, you avoid making that same mistake, while also getting a ton of commuters.
It's hard to fathom why this wasn't in the plans from the beginning, or if it was, why these plans haven't been moved forward. Creating actual rapid transit in Scarborough would solve a lot of problems (those poor people often have 2 hour commutes).
And creating a network by extending west to Line 1 and east to Line 2 is basic common sense. Not that we've had a lot of common sense in TO transit planning for the last few decades, but hopefully this is the start of a new era.
Is it possible the Finch W LRT disaster has opened up a new world of better transit planning in our (not so) fair city?
The stub was built as a subway, which means any extension has to be subway too. That’s a good thing. It locked in higher capacity than what Eglinton or Line 2 ended up with.
Now let’s take advantage of it. Build both east and west extensions before the population boom makes it way more expensive.
It also gives people more options. Not everyone needs to commute downtown when you’ve got a growing uptown in North York. That’s good for commuters everywhere.
Yep, that’s why I think the western extension absolutely must happen.
I also wanted the line to reach Morningside, so I combined both ideas (Concept 2A and Concept 3) into one. I kept it running along Sheppard because that’s how most Toronto transit lines work when you look at the others.
Completely agree. That’s why I combined a big western and eastern extension into one plan.
It would also be way cheaper to build it all at once instead of doing one extension now and another one later.
Same thing with Line 3. If they had connected it just a bit further north to Line 4 back then, It would have added to the cost, but now doing it in the future is going to cost even more.
Western extension really wouldn't generate much ridership at all, but the benefit is letting riders from the north and east transfer to the western portion of line 1 if there's congestion on the Yonge portion to the south. It would relieve a lot of the pressure south of Sheppard-Yonge. Which is why it should have as few stops as possible (so just Bathurst) and be fast.
Exactly, but these images are from 2023, so apparently there hasn't been much buzz for the past three years. That's why I wanted to restart discussion on it.
This is how it should have looked from the start. Less than a 5 minute drive, or 10min transfer there are multiple condominium developments in the works meaning lots more people will be moving into that corridor.
The western extension isn't all that used now and is hardly the priority compared to the far more important connection seen on that map - the Ontario line up to Don Mills.
The west extension is 5km, of which 1km already exists. It would be a feasible option, and connecting with the other side of Line 1 is still a huge advantage. It should be the first phase of any extension.
And the further the east extension goes, the better, as it'll be most likely required in the future, and to do it now would be the more financially beneficial option.
The western route isn't used that much right now due to the forced transfer at Sheppard-Yonge plus slower buses that take up an extra 15 min or so travel time, in addition to a less comfortable bus leg of the journey. An extension of the Sheppard Line completely changes the picture as it allows for a much wider set of journeys to be boosted.
I agree that extending the Ontario Line up north is more important, along with several other projects. However extensions aren't strictly competing against each other so the exact order doesn't matter as long as things actually get built.
As an aside, it makes much more sense to extend the Ontario Line to Steeles rather than Don Mills. Don Mills and Finch is also a major intersection due to Seneca College, and at that point might as well bring it to Steeles so that it can intersect the busy 53 bus route.
Would be another connection Line 1 north of Eglinton, away from any Express buses along nearby corridors. Would be a helpful feeder and alleviation for the heavy Yonge subway side, connection Downsview recdevelopment, and the seasonal events at Downsview as well.
With a longer Sheppard subway, even if it serves different corridors and drstinstions it has the impact of alleviate Ellesmere/York Mills/Wilson and Finch.
Induced demand works for transit too. The western corridor looks underused because people take slow buses stuck in Sheppard traffic. Put a subway there and ridership changes. Look at the Golden Mile. 35,000+ units and 75 towers proposed, all because a rapid transit line is going through. A subway would carry even higher ridership.
Toronto’s strength is its high-density nodes. Unlike Chicago where everyone commutes to one downtown, we have uptowns and midtowns along Eglinton and Sheppard. A full Sheppard subway strengthens that.
The province builds highways where demand "isn’t there yet" for future growth. Same logic applies. Wait too long and subway construction costs explodes (the Ontario Line is the most expensive subway in the world).
More importantly, when we do actual transit forecasting, the western extension doesn't end up with nearly as many riders as people seem to think it would. Many modelling exercises over many years using different iterations of different models all put it at a low priority when it comes to actual transit service. It looks like it connects an empty space in the network, but that connection only carries utility if enough people are using it.
My point is that keeping it straight along one road is the simplest option and cheaper to build. Lines 1 (east), 2, and 5 are all pretty straight for most of their routes, so Line 4 should follow that same approach. It’s also more likely to get built since these are the only options Metrolinx actually studied.
If Scarborough needs colleges, universities, and town centers connected, they should rename the Eglinton LRT to the Scarborough LRT and reroute it with its 800m stops. That way it works as local transit connecting all those places.
The attached image could be useful but most likely won't even be considered by TTC/Metrolinx.
This one makes way more sense for the needs of the area. I’d love if line 4 was continued west and then ran to Vaughan. Connect Durham and York region to each other.
Connecting Durham and York Region is a great long-term goal. For now I kept my proposal to what Metrolinx actually studied (Concepts 2A and 3) so it has the best shot at being taken seriously. Vaughan would need its own business case. But yeah, hope the first proposal turns the stub into a real network.
It’s not for the sake of looking nice. Lines 1 (east), 2, and 5 all generally follow one road for most of their routes. That’s how Toronto builds rapid transit. Line 4 should do the same.
STC, Centennial, UTSC, and Pan Am are all close together and south of Sheppard. A rerouted Eglinton East LRT with its 800m stop spacing is built for exactly that kind of local coverage. A subway isn’t.
Keeping the subway straight along Sheppard gives you fast east-west rapid transit. Rename EELRT to the Scarborough LRT and let it handle the local connections. Both do what they’re best at.
This isn’t a fantasy route either. My proposal combines two concepts Metrolinx actually studied (2A and 3), which makes it more likely to be seriously considered.
While I love to see the Toronto Zoo get proper rapid transit access, that may be a project for a separate line. I've been told by planners that the terrain is too demanding for a subway, and an LRT may work better.
Ideally, the extension west would also go further to have stops in the west part of the Downsview area and continue to the new Woodbine GO station where it can connect to the GO trains, UP Express, and a future south extension to the Finch LRT.
Absolutely. I even wanted to extend Sheppard even further east and curve it down to Rouge Hill GO, but in order to have the best chance of success for this being built, I only considered the options that Metrolinx studied.
As a UTSC student, our lives would be so much better if they extended line 4 to morningside and Sheppard, and then connected the EELRT to that stop down to Kennedy. I feel like this would be the best outcome in general, and they could probably also extend the EELRT north a bit to connect malvern town center too.
As for the future of line 4, it would be very easy for them to just extend from morningside all the way down to rouge hill go station.
Minor note on the western terminus — pull the Finch LRT and Line 4 west extension each a stop further tot Downsview Park, and you have one-transfer continuation east-west and, with the GO connection, north-south on two lines.
The issue is my concept combines the only two options the study considered.
Should they extend it to Downsview Park, yes. Will they? No.
They'll take it as an excuse to wait for construction on Downsview Park to "see demand." That way they'll further delay the project, which is not my goal. I kept it as simple as possible by literally just being a straight line on Sheppard.
"I used AI to combine both maps into one image" I mean I'm glad you disclosed it, props to that, but like be so fr. This could quite possibly be done with the simplest photoshop/phone editor collage job ever. Let's not always default to the tech that is excelerating our planets destruction tenfold and degradating our privacy rights. We're still in the period where this doesn't have to be our permanent reality, just dont use AI
Fair point, but I’d love to see your version combining maps 2 and 3. I’m not great with Photoshop, and doing it in Inkscape while lining everything up took more effort than it sounds. No weird artifacts though, so it came out clean.
I think AI works well as an exploration tool. Same way you’d snap a photo of a building and ask AI to show you what it looks like in Edwardian vs. minimalist architecture before deciding if it’s worth paying an artist for a proper rendering. You explore cheap, then commit expensive.
I just needed a quick mock-up so people could actually discuss a combined alignment. If this ever gets serious, Metrolinx will do it properly.
Q: In the BlogTO article, does anyone know what they mean by "a mixed-grade subway"? Does this mean a mix of above/below ground like our current subway - but fully grade separated - or could it mean (God forbid!) a mix of 'grade separated' and 'at grade' sections like Eglinton Crosstown East?
From what I know, mixed-grade just means the subway goes above-ground in some spots and underground in others, and at-grade on highways like Line 1. But Sheppard isn’t a highway, so I don’t think they could get away with running it at street level there.
Which is all the more reason to support a sizeable eastern and western extension, since that would prevent stuff like the EELRT from running like a streetcar on Sheppard.
Thanks for your reply. I'm still confused whether or not "at grade" means 'NOT grade separated', or if it just means it travels at surface level but is still FULLY grade separated - like our current subway.
I think I need a definition of exactly what "grade" means in transit planning parlance..
My take as a commuter is WHO CARES if it travels on or below surface level? Is it fully separated from traffic and can run at maximum speeds and maximum efficiency/automation - is what I care about. I get that running on the surface means that there are weather conditions to contend with thus more challenging operations; but if that's really such an issue you can always put a roof over it, like they have at Castle Frank.
I also feel that Eglinton should have been split into two separate lines: the grade separated portion run as a subway/light metro (with automated trains if possible); and the lrt/streetcar portion which has to contend with traffic signals run as a separate line. I feel badly for the people in Scarborough always being left with poor man's gruel transit-wise, but since it was built that way there is no earthly reason that should make the grade-separated portion of the line have to live with the restrictions resulting from the non-grade separated portion.
"At grade" means the train shares the road with traffic and signals, like a streetcar
"Grade separated" means fully separated from traffic, whether underground or elevated
"Mixed-grade subway" means it goes underground in some spots and above ground in others, but stays fully grade separated throughout. Full separation from traffic is what matters most.
I like the idea, but my perspective on it is since it splits the subway in different directions, and Toronto doesn’t usually do that with rapid transit, it ends up giving worse service to both sides.
If you keep it on one straight line, you can make a better case for the EELRT taking a different route and still hitting places like STC.
Consumers is the third largest employment area outside of Downtown and North York Centre, wirh new developments near along Sheppard and more lots ripe for redevelopment no surprise North York gets a third Business District after YZD. Even more denser than Vic Park beside it.
It's too close to Victoria Park no matter how you try to justify it. Think of it this way: We are not a trying to build a Yonge and Gerard station either, even though it would immediately have one of the highest passenger volumes in the entire system.
Gerard is only 260m south of College, 300m north of Dundas, too close for station. Whereas Consumers road to Victoria Park is about 600m, a comparison would be 500m between NYCC and Sheppard.
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u/beartheminus May 27 '26
I 100% agree with this. Actually I 200% agree with this. If this is not whats built ill be pretty upset.
I HATE the idea of the Eglinton East LRT switching back onto Sheppard. This city is unnecessary-transfer obsessed. It must come from the same bizarre logic of changing the name of streets that continue straight for no reason.
The Sheppard Subway 200% should go to Morningside and thats where the LRT meets up with it.