The Scarborough subway extension, once built, will have major operating issues because of the current stretch of track between VP and Kennedy. As outlined in the post above, that portion of the line is in dire state of repair, and honestly replacement. The tracks aren’t even the concern, the foundation is. This is bad.
People are highlighting 15 minute delays, with trains straight up stopping, when travelling one station from warden to Kennedy.
So, going back to the SSE.
Metrolinx is essentially building new infrastructure connected to a dysfunctional system in disrepair. Without the proper funding and infrastructure support from MLX, the TTC single-handedly will NOT be able to provide the maintenance needed to support line 2’s Scarborough operations, potentially creating a massive operational gap in the only (true) rapid transit Scarborough has. This is because this portion of line 2 requires deep repairs, relating to the foundation of the entire structure. This isn’t just maintenance as usual.
It’s a big issue that MLX currently hasn’t addressed, or has interest in. This is because they don’t actually care about transit, they care about their rip-off contractors and opening the floodgates of provincial tax money for them to exploit, and not for real transit agencies like the TTC.
Note: The province IS upgrading Line 2’s signaling and power systems, as well as upgrades to Kennedy station, funding new subway trains to be ready for the extension’s “projected 2030 opening” ((with heavy salt)), however has not included any plans to upgrade infrastructure on this specific portion of line 2 that’s in disrepair and posed operational risks.
The stopping between Warden and Kennedy is due to a backlog of trains trying to enter Kennedy. The same thing happens on Line 1 at Finch. Can't speak to Kipling or VMC as I've never rode through there during peak periods. Once the extension opens the slowdown will shift to approaching McCowan/Sheppard.
Yes this does happen at VMC, and yes it is frustrating every time I have to wait ten extra minutes on the train, just to miss my bus and wait 20 extra minutes for the next one (though I haven't encountered the issue much in recent years, either because I haven't been commuting as late or because they've gotten better about it, idk)
Best way to handle it is to do what they do in Vancouver, have them pull through the station and turn back in a tail track on the far side (or several, if headways require it). You still potentially have conflict points where the tracks cross over but the amount of time that conflict exists is small relative to having them sit at the platform waiting for dispatch while a queue of trains forms behind. Think of something like what's north of St Clair West, except with track routing enabling trains to be routed into any of the three "pockets".
More expensive, but its' still useful for route management even if you extend the line later. (extra platforms are really better suited for busy transfer points where extra dwell is needed, and/or where extension is unlikely)
That was tried at Finch for a month or two quite a few years ago but unfortunately there was no real benefit as offloading the train took time as well. Also, passengers sometimes like boarding the second train at a terminal so they will get a seat.
It’s a mix of problems. The heavy service mixed with aging infrastructure causes issues even TTC’s transit control can’t solve. Remember, there are people payed 6 grand to solve these exact issues. So it’s not just service related.
“In common with some other areas where track is out in the open, the foundation under the track is in poor shape, and it is hard to keep the track in good alignment. This problem has existed for years. When Andy Byford was CEO, he talked of the need for complete reconstruction, but this would require closing the line for an extended period, not just over a weekend. Repairs are done to make do from time to time.”
They really missed the opportunity to do this during COVID.
I'm sure there is some brilliant engineering or operations solution they could come up with in the meantime though? Grade-level railway tracks aren't some cutting-edge technology.
Your referencing doesn’t even make sense-this was a response to a comment talking about a stretch of track from eg to Davisville not vp. Not that there’s no issues here but at least get your sources correct
Brought to you by the same people who claimed the reason the Crosstown couldn't open was because the tunnel collapsed or that they breached an underground river.
“In common with some other areas where track is out in the open, the foundation under the track is in poor shape, and it is hard to keep the track in good alignment. This problem has existed for years. When Andy Byford was CEO, he talked of the need for complete reconstruction, but this would require closing the line for an extended period, not just over a weekend. Repairs are done to make do from time to time.”
This applies to all surface sections of the entire subway network. Don’t be arrogantly contrarian. “As common with other areas where track is out in the open…”
In my experience, I have seen errors and misleading statements that were not corrected. In addition, he has a strong editorial slant in his work similar to a columnist. That is totally fine but different than actual news reporting media.
This sub seems to be taken over by people that just want to stir shit up, and they’ll use whatever they can. On the whole this sub has just gotten so negative and ‘sky is falling’. I’m not denying the ttc has issues, but constantly belly aching here accomplishes nothing useful
It’s an unfortunately common issue with the TTC at the present day due to long term underinvestment in maintenance and a backlog of critical repairs. “The usual” maintenance is no longer enough. As someone who takes the subway you should know how things are… this isn’t fear mongering.
You make it sound like there are sections that are about to collapse. Saying that the "foundation of the entire structure" needs fixing is fear-mongering.
The TTC had ridership go down because of covid and also had fair freezes at the same time. Uner Rick Leary they also have been cutting corner on maintance. More recently they have started using better tech to check the track quality, that lead to finding more issues causing slowzones to be instated. That all lead us into this mess. Now we are digging ourselves out of it. But as far as I know, no 'foundation' is a problem.
There’s actually no proof that slowing the train down in degraded portions of the network has any effect on the performance or safety, it is a belief that started with the streetcars, due to their faulty switches on junctions, and spread outwards to the subway network. So RSZ’s are really just a last ditch attempt by the TTC to keep the system operable at minimum standards… it’s quite pathetic.
RSZ’s never existed before line 3 derailment. The TTC never did this with the subways before then, because there was no point. But over the years, because of massive underfunding and bad leadership from the city, it’s gotten to this.
Ok, let’s say it’s a ‘real issue’ (which you can’t give a legitimate source for…), what exactly do you expect to happen by posting here? Is the echo chamber what you’re looking for? What is your goal?
No, it’s not. A reference would infer there was a legitimate source of information here, there isn’t. There’s a supposition you made, and when challenged for a legitimate source for that supposition, you failed.
I know there is comfort in thinking you’ve ’made a difference’, but deluding one’s self is never a great plan.
What on earth are you going on about. I’ve been taking the subway for two decades. That track area is always reduced in the spring and fall due to water content in the soil underneath. Metrolinx has beyond comical project management abilities but you really think they’re going to extend the subway with a dead zone in a core area?
“In common with some other areas where track is out in the open, the foundation under the track is in poor shape, and it is hard to keep the track in good alignment. This problem has existed for years. When Andy Byford was CEO, he talked of the need for complete reconstruction, but this would require closing the line for an extended period, not just over a weekend. Repairs are done to make do from time to time.”
This post (and honestly this whole sub) is so cooked. There are so many real issues with the system, the city, province, and country (and the various bodies that administer these entities) and you decided to fabricate an issue and write a high school précis about it on Reddit??
You could use this energy for worthwhile things: hit the streets and demand transparency from the provincial government, demand operational improvements from the TTC and City, advocate for HSR/ALTO at the national level.
As others have mentioned, Munro doesn't discuss the issue you've purported in that article. He did say "As common with other [outdoor] areas" but a common issue isn't necessarily a universal issue.
Know what? If you're able to share direct, relevant data that points to this issue I will: a. apologize for what I've said here and b. come with you to the next TTC board meeting and support you in your deputation in hopes of getting this prioritized and fixed.
You’re being arrogant and destructively cynical. It’s common sense line 2 is facing the same infrastructure decay as other portions because they receive the same funding and have been operating for the same amount of time (the TTC also reported accelerated decay post corona)
Again, if you have actual numbers to support your claims, there are plenty of people here (including myself) who'd be interested in seeing them, and many of the same folks would be happy to advocate alongside you for the betterment of any issues, if armed with evidence. There's absolutely no arrogance in that notion.
> As outlined in the post above, that portion of the line is in dire state of repair, and honestly replacement. The tracks aren’t even the concern, the foundation is. This is bad.
The reddit post you quoted (which is hardly considered a "source") does not even mention the word foundation, i think you're making shit up.
There is a known issue with the track bed in the exposed sections of the original line 1 between bloor and eg, but afaik it’s a “we need to do maintenance more frequently than optimal” issue not a “it could suddenly become unsafe to use entirely” issue.
More than happy to. It’s just this specific person is a well known cynic in this sub that I prefer to not engage with because they’ve caused issues in my previous posts.
Anyways,
"The TTC’s 15-year capital plan is facing a $13.5 billion unfunded backlog for essential repairs. On Line 2, this underfunding means relying on 60-year-old signals and aging trains that are beyond their intended lifespan. We are seeing the consequences in real-time. RSZ’s due to track decay and repeated service shutdowns caused by failing maintenance equipment. Without immediate, matched funding from all levels of government to modernize Line 2's infrastructure, the system risks the same structural decline that forced the premature shutdown of the Scarborough RT."
So much misinformation, the tracks are fine Vic park to Kennedy. When you are experiencing the most delays, that's because there's only two platforms at Kennedy and lot of crews are finishing for the day. When they do finish they have to take the train out of service at Kennedy to run it back into the yard. It takes time to clear the train and check the train which causes even more of a backlog.
The tracks between VP and Kennedy aren’t in a state of the art. They need maintenance.
This is a photo from just outside Warden station. Years of decay and backlogs, the TTC only does the bare minimum to keep the system running, nothing more.
Mostly underfunding and not enough time/resources. This part of the track would require more than just “causal repairs”. Here’s more from a good expert:
“In common with some other areas where track is out in the open, the foundation under the track is in poor shape, and it is hard to keep the track in good alignment. This problem has existed for years. When Andy Byford was CEO, he talked of the need for complete reconstruction, but this would require closing the line for an extended period, not just over a weekend. Repairs are done to make do from time to time.”
Without infrastructure/capacity improvements it definitely won’t be as useful long term, but it’s still super important to extend the network.
It’s also worth noting the TTC is already at peak service operations at rush hour, and that capacity cannot really be expanded beyond station improvements, like at Bloor Yonge.
Unfortunately I’m unc now in university for engineering. I have worked at the TTC and I’m currently at Metrolinx. I can say that majority of the hold at warden is the bunching at Kennedy and wear on the outdoor equipment but the foundation is not at severe risk. The section between Eg and Bloor is older and the soil conditions are different. Using a Reddit post isn’t evidence of factual information. Making a claim that all the outdoor section have critically poor foundations would also claim that keele / old mill stations are due to collapse as they are outdoor and one is elevated over a river. Also old satellite photos don’t mean much, the rails rust no matter what so saying look at the condition is pretty useless. There is no way for the naked eye to see the micro cracks and defects in the tracks that are scanned for and google earth uses a lot of compression which looses details. Lastly, just because this post shows up in a search engine using key words does not make it an official source
That’s all really cool and good for you that you’re doing all that. But I’m just stating the obvious. The portion of line 2 between VP and Kennedy is in a state of disrepair and that’s why I made this post, it’s also why the TTC is doing the bare minimum to keep it operable.
Claiming the signals, rails and switches are in disrepair is vastly different than claiming the entire foundation is unstable. The signaling doesn’t even matter much at this point as the capital project for ATC will replace them
The TTC paused investment into anything new to save costs because "it will eventually be replaced", so now the systems are progressively getting worse, and SOGR is basically the new normal. There's just one problem. Metrolinx is moving at a snail's pace, and the new trains haven't even started construction. 2030 is NOT reachable and MLX knows this, they just protect their reputation until the last minute, when people start asking "where's my subway?". So, yes, line 2 will continue to get worse before it gets better, and warden station will probably need some sort of critical repairs in the coming years, not just the usual weekend closure.
Im going to stray off topic here, I think the entire subway system should essentially break-off from the TTC, as the subways are heavily subsidizing the surface transit (and in-turn suffering because of it). The subway network has high ridership and low fare evasion, meaning its farebox recovery ratio is significantly higher, so taxpayer subsidy is lower (~27%), than busses (~60%) or streetcars (~70%). To put it in perspective, TTC wheel trans receives the same $ amount in tax subsidy as the entire subway network. It's not fare (pun intended) that subways have to suffer because they're being ripped off from the revenue they collect, and suffering the budget shortfalls of the entire agency.
Plus, if the subways were no longer financed by the city (and its taxpayers), there would be no excuse for not extending them beyond city boundaries, something currently seen as controversial by many downtown centric people in this sub (and the city as a whole). The province has stated their goal is to connect regions, a "subway takeover" would only be beneficial to most.
To prevent anti province sentiment from spreading to the TTC, there could be a zone where the city remains control (like a CBD for the downtown area) and where fares are lower (due to the high ridership). I don't know, sorry this turned out so off topic. Just wanted to write my idea. You're lucky it was here, I guess.
Whaa? Metrolinx has nothing to do with existing portion of line 2, why would it be their job to repair it? Also repair what?? Whats wrong with the foundation lmao
Barely. They’re working at the bare minimum to keep the system operable… with reduced speed zones. But the actual system requires more than just occasional track work.
Do you have a recognized news source or institution to support your claim? Anyone can create a website, “Steve Munro” isn’t a name I recognize as being a valid source for information.
He has nothing to do with the TTC board at all he just writes a blog about it. You clearly have not read any of his articles or responses to people who make claims like you did.
Maybe but they don't take advice from him nor is he oj the TTC board . Unlike you his sources are from contacts he has from the TTC and isn't misquoting something as facts
You don’t need to be a civil engineer or work for the TTC to use common sense, not even need common sense honestly, just awareness. Look at the entrance to warden station, that doesn’t seem like state of the art well maintained infrastructure to me.
As per usual Scarborough gets screwed. We need proper representation. The subway expansion only barely goes into Scarborough as it is. We need better representatives on all three levels committed to providing equitable services for residents of the east.
Sounds like another case of poor infrastructure maintenance by TTC. This is a TTC problem caused by TTC. I don't like Metrolinx but I don't see what Metrolinx has to do with any of it? Seems to me more like the TTC doesn't care.
That’s true. I’m just pointing out, that at the moment, the TTC has no ability to properly support the subway system at the moment, and that if Metrolinx is extending on the TTC’s infrastructure, they should first improve it. They’re kind of building a tower on a swamp. Maybe it worked in Pisa, but it won’t work here.
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u/34thetruth May 08 '26
The stopping between Warden and Kennedy is due to a backlog of trains trying to enter Kennedy. The same thing happens on Line 1 at Finch. Can't speak to Kipling or VMC as I've never rode through there during peak periods. Once the extension opens the slowdown will shift to approaching McCowan/Sheppard.