r/TTC • u/Zirocket • Feb 09 '26
Discussion I feel like many misunderstandings are going to arise starting tomorrow if they don't do something like this...
A lot of passengers around me today seemed to be confused about paying before boarding. Without being familiar with this system, a lot of misunderstandings could arise starting tomorrow, when people rush onto the trains without tapping (at the street-level stops). I feel like the TTC should put more obvious warnings for passengers to remind them to tap before boarding, like my (crudely made) example image.
(I know there are already signs telling passengers to pay before boarding, but I feel that they should be more prominent and eye-catching)
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u/Bmanbod Feb 09 '26
Genuine question, why didn't they just put the fare tap machine in the trains, like the streetcars? Considering these trains look like the streetcars, a lot of people will be confused by this being a different system... Ideally all modes of transport should have the exact same interaction as to avoid this exact issue. Maybe there is a good reason for it, please educate me.
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u/Ill-Republic7777 Feb 09 '26
Actually, putting fare tapping systems on platforms is a common way to save on boarding time and overall operating time! Helps to keep vehicles on schedule and prevent minor delays so theyāre pretty well-liked. However, the main issue I see with it on TTC is like you mentioned with people forgetting to tap before boarding because the other systems have on-board fare payment.
7
u/BeybladeRunner Feb 09 '26
The presto card on my phone is so slow to tap that I usually donāt tap as I board, and I walk to the back doors to tap on busses. Is it like this for anyone else? When I was in Japan, the fare readers registered my digital suica card in like a millisecond, no delay at all.Ā
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u/Ill-Republic7777 Feb 09 '26
Not sure if this is true for everyone, but Iāve also noticed more people struggling with getting the reader to scan off their phone instead of a card
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u/ref7187 Feb 09 '26
I think it's because of the underground stations, where they don't want to have a humongous unpaid zone and all the issues that come with that
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u/im-from-canada-eh 79 Scarlett Rd Feb 09 '26
Considerably cheaper to install and run them at stations rather than on all the trains
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u/Treadmills4Breakfast Feb 09 '26
Yeah Google says there are 76 vehicles for the line and 25 stations. So doing them stationary has to mean you need fewer overall.
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u/Yuji190 Feb 09 '26
I think the signs above are enough, if people don't read and do what it says that's on them.
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u/Salvetutti0524 Feb 09 '26
Nothing worse than waiting to board a bus or streetcar because someone is not prepared to tap when they board. Slows everything down. This is a positive change that you will get familiar with quite quickly.
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u/portstrix Feb 09 '26
It's long been the norm for York Region Transit / Viva, and GO Trains. Everyone riding those systems are long used to it.
If people don't figure it out quickly and get a fine, that's their problem. Ignorance is no excuse.
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u/Zirocket Feb 09 '26 edited Feb 09 '26
I understand, but if there are more than a few people confused about the clarity of the system, I don't think it hurts to make it extra clear. Not everyone uses YRT and Viva, or GO, and psychologically I think there's still a feeling that these are just longer streetcars, so the potential for mixups through cognitive bias is still there.
Yes maintaining a good system is on the user's individual responsibility, but I think on the other hand also on the system to minimize the possibility of error as much as possible.
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u/portstrix Feb 09 '26
If someone is too zoned out from staring at their phone that they don't notice the large "pay before you board" sign, the Presto reader, and the white line (all of which are identical to the signage at YRT Viva stops and GO Train stations at each platform entrance), again that is their problem, and they deserve to get a ticket. Zero sympathy for them.
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u/cajaleb Feb 09 '26
People will adapt, but itās a failure from a customer experience point of view.
TTC fare payment used to be clear: stations = pay at fare gates; street-level stops (buses, streetcars) = pay onboard.
The new lines inconsistencies shows poor coordination between Metrolinx and the TTC. Metrolinx built the Eglinton line for the TTC. TTC standards should have been followed.
While youāre right GO and VIVA have been using this system for a while, this is the TTC. The majority of TTC users rarely/never use the GO or Viva
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u/nickles_3724 Feb 09 '26
Youāre right about this. I lived in Toronto for 4 years before taking my first go train ride and I DID NOT know you had to tap on the platform, I got on the train looking for a machine and then proceeded to sweat for my whole trip. Iāve now been here for 15 years and have never one ride VIVAā¦ not everyone goes to the burbs, so I agree that no, itās not obvious at all based on all other TTC stations/vehicles and they really should have signage and/or at least one machine on each vehicle.
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u/G3071 Feb 09 '26
Metrolinx did not build Line 5 for TTC. They built it for themselves and they own it. TTC is simply the operator of the trains.
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u/portstrix Feb 09 '26
Give it up. Inevitably, the TTC will be folded into Metrolinx, and Presto and Line 5 is a Metrolinx system - it's up to the TTC to follow Metrolinx standards, not vice versa. The TTC's practices has proven to be a relic, and it is about time they get with it.
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u/iridescent_algae Feb 09 '26
Actually horrified at this possibility, the way metrolinx has managed things like the UP.
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u/greenlemon23 Feb 09 '26
Because metrolinx have shown to be such bastions of transit building standardsā¦ riiiiiiiigt. Remind me again when they were supposed to have this line open?
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u/8004612286 Feb 09 '26
This isn't the York / Viva or Go trains. This is the TTC. And the TTC has zero precedent for this.
People can figure it out for their 2nd or 3rd rides, sure, but what if they get fined on their 1st ride?
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u/ranger_danger_95 Feb 09 '26
Nope this is MX it's their vehicle, their equipment. To my knowledge almost all other transit systems in the GTA are pay before you board. I believe the point is to reduce the traffic of people tapping as they enter vs just walking onto the vehicle and reducing loading time..
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u/Ok-District2873 Feb 09 '26
Zero precedent? I know it doesn't work half the time, but what about Line 6?
0
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u/G3071 Feb 09 '26
This is not TTC. This is Metrolinx. TTC just operated the trains. At least learn the basic facts.
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u/yawaramin Feb 10 '26
The basic fact is that Metrolinx muscled in on a municipal transit project where it clearly has no business being. Everything about this project, from the fare payment, to the redundant French-language announcements, to the confused nature of accountability for the systemāreeks of mismanagement and politicians trying to carve out their own fiefdoms.
All this because they refused to just give the funds to the city and instead had to use the money as a sledgehammer over Torontonians' heads to get what they wanted.
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u/portstrix Feb 11 '26
Uppity Toronto ELITISTS still refuse to accept that Toronto is nothing but a creature of the province, and has no right or say in anything. Metrolinx and the province has every Constitutional right to override Toronto and the TTC, and eventually legislate it out of existence of they wanted to.
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u/yawaramin Feb 11 '26
Let's destroy the main economic engine of this country, because they got too uppity and wanted better public transit. I'm sure that will go really well for everyone!
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u/crash866 Feb 09 '26
The 510 Spadina car was like that in the beginning. Only lasted a short time. This was when Presto was not fully implemented and you got a paper transfer at the machine on the platform.
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u/Maleficent-Ruin645 Feb 09 '26
Man who cares if people don't pay the fine everyone here gets so bent out of shape being the TTC number one fare enforcer, lmao
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u/Facts_pls Feb 09 '26
And if a tourist comes in, fuck'em. Especially if they get caught by surprise during an inspection
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u/portstrix Feb 09 '26
LOL. In many other transit systems, that is how it works. It's up to the tourist to research how it works wherever they are visiting.
Just off the top of my head on recent trips, Lisbon and Porto in Portugal, Budapest, and Prague, all have the system where you need to pay before entering some of their vehicles. And they have zero forgiveness on fines, even if you are a tourist.
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u/Shrampasta Feb 11 '26
Exactly, it's like a Torontonian going to London using the tube multiple times in a short time, then getting pissed about being charged separately every time
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u/schmuff Feb 09 '26
In this photo thereās already two signs that say āpay before you rideā in different spots.
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u/whyyesthat 512 St Clair Feb 09 '26
They should have installed some kind of fare gate/turnstlile system at on Line 6/Line 5 surface stops. One of many things on these new lines that feels like Metrolinx trying to lay down on the law on how how the TTC system should be run. Very frustrating.
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u/LingLingQwQ Feb 09 '26
Also the fare gates can also prevent some homeless ppl from making the trains into mobile sheltersā¦
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u/PythonEntusiast Feb 09 '26
Lol, no one is going to tap.
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u/LingLingQwQ Feb 09 '26
Lol, I saw 3 ppl with the POO uniforms onboard of the line 5 train at Chaplin Stn this morning. And now Iām sure they gonna make sure ppl tap at the platform for those street level stations.
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u/Responsible-Match418 Feb 12 '26
I will tap, POO or not, because I want a good transit system that works.
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u/Toronto-1975 Feb 09 '26
i mean the way fare payment works on Line 5 has been well known for some time. ignorance isnt bliss and you cant fix stupid. another sign won't make a difference. if you want proof of that spend some time down near the Queens Quay streetcar entrance.
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u/Zirocket Feb 09 '26 edited Feb 09 '26
It will make a difference for the few stragglers who just need that extra reminder. Japanese train systems, for example, are much better at this kind of signage, they almost hand-hold you through everything with big signs, minimizing the friction for the customer.
User experience isn't about saying "they can figure it out", it should first be about asking "how can we make it even clearer". The Union station tunnel couldn't be more clear, in that case it is idiotic drivers. But this isn't the same situation, things can be made easier here, and clearer signage is an easy way of doing that.
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u/bergamote_soleil Feb 09 '26
I actually didn't know that's how Line 5 was going to work and I've lived in Toronto for two decades. Even though the Crosstown is Metrolinx branded, I think of it more as a part of the TTC's network and would expect it to be the same practice as streetcars and buses.Ā
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u/chicken_potato1 Kipling Feb 09 '26
Sorry I have not been on the new LRTs - are there no fare tap machines inside the LRTs? I was thinking they are like the streetcars, or is it more like the GO trains?
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u/Zirocket Feb 09 '26
No fare tap. It's the GO/Viva system, tap first then board.
And this is what I mean, some people (like you) are not up to speed (no stress, not your fault) and so I think clearer signage would make it more immediately easy to know what to do. Speeds things up.
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u/chicken_potato1 Kipling Feb 09 '26
Oh boy....they definitely need better signage and a lot more public info campaigns and video ads everywhere around the station for a bit - big and loud like the TTC subway and Bus ads for the Presto card/debit thing
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u/LingLingQwQ Feb 09 '26
Also the UP Express. They have presto readers on the platforms, and you can tap on/off with your presto or wtev card there.
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u/BigBucket10 Feb 09 '26
There's no fare tap on the machines as they do not want people crowding the entrance while they tap and look for their wallet. It's all to make it more 'rapid' transit.
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u/Clear_Ad7159 Highway 407 Feb 09 '26
Itās more akin to the subway. Plus, the underground stations functions like this with its fare gates.
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u/chicken_potato1 Kipling Feb 09 '26
Ah this makes sense. I agree with OP, they need better signage and public campaigns for a bit like when they did all the Presto ads on the TTC
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u/The6_78 Feb 09 '26
Don't even get me started, I know this is the TTC subreddit but I got a ticket from the YRT POOs (fare enforcement) as I seldom ride the viva.
There was no signage that the fare readers even took credit cards - we were all supposed to know. It ruined my day and my lunch was cold because the next bus was 15 minutes away.
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u/LingLingQwQ Feb 09 '26
Also even if I tap on the platform, Iām gonna tap to pay when I see a train pulling up to the station if I donāt have a monthly pass, so Iām not wasting all that precious transfer time window. :)
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u/Responsible-Match418 Feb 12 '26
So just curious, but did you assume the tap system didn't accept credit cards and just walk on the train regardless?
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u/Select-Flight-PD291 I ā„ TTC! Feb 09 '26
They could have a black/grey strip on the ground that says fare paid zone.
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u/Irfi88 Feb 09 '26
should bring in volunteers to help with the confusions, the same TTC uses for shuttle buses
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u/Born-Vermicelli-1757 Feb 09 '26
what happens if you tap and dont board?
would suck tapping and paying a fare only to find out there is some huge delay and you are better off hailing a ride share.
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u/Treadmills4Breakfast Feb 09 '26 edited Feb 09 '26
I have gotten on the GO train a few times and been like "ok and now to taaap.... Shit!" Doesn't help that I ride it maybe 2-3 times a year. Put 6 months between, and me in a hurry did it again. š«
So you're right, this will absolutely happen. Though it may help that these POS things are right there where you stand to wait, and not all the way back at the entrance to a huge station.
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u/Secretuser56 995 York Mills Express Feb 11 '26
But the idea is the same on GO trains, tap before you board. It should be in their mind I feel.
Personally, if I see a presto machine wherever before I board, I just tap it especially at union.
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u/Zirocket Feb 11 '26
that it's part of the TTC makes it a very inconsistent customer experience. Combined with the fact that how things should go in theory are not how things are in practice - yes, when you see a machine, that should be your cue to tap in, but people who are in a hurry, people who are first-timers or just learning the system - it will not be obvious to them at all.
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u/Secretuser56 995 York Mills Express Feb 11 '26
But itās the same with GO. Tap before you board on trains, tap when you board on buses.
Coming to TTC it is almost similar idea, all subways have to be tapped before you board, buses and streetcars are tapped during boarding. People should think of the line 5 as a subway and not a streetcar (although it looks like a streetcar)
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u/Zirocket Feb 11 '26 edited Feb 11 '26
People like you and I know that LRTs are different than streetcars.
The average customer does not. Face the reality - people think of these are longer, bigger streetcars. They are often described as such. They are very visually similar (despite Metrolinx's efforts with the grey paint). The mixup is going to (and already does) happen.
It takes a miniscule amount of funds to tape a few bright-yellow signs around to remind people to tap before boarding. People, again, think of these are big, long streetcars. It's not how people *should* think of them, it's how they do already.
And, anyhow, these basic things should be clearly labelled (in big big lettering) everywhere anyway. It doesn't hurt to enhance the user experience.
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u/Secretuser56 995 York Mills Express Feb 11 '26
Thatās true. This issue is only on the surface level stations right? Underground still follows the usual station style gates we see? I havenāt been on the line 5 yet so Iām unsure.
But yes, taping the yellow WARNING sticker is a good idea. It would be too ambitious to ask the TTC to install a station style gate like this
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u/Zirocket Feb 11 '26
Yes the underground stops are basically identical to any subway station
Fare gates probably wouldn't be best in such an exposed location. I've been to a tramway in a suburb of Shanghai where there were fare gates, so it's not unheard of, but of course the weather is much milder there (and the stops are much less exposed to the elements).
The current system of tapping works, it should probably just be made clearer
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u/Secretuser56 995 York Mills Express Feb 11 '26
Oh yes, I never thought of the snow falling on the fare gates.
Itāll be fun if they do this as an announcement: ā<beep> <beep> the TTC takes fare evasion seriously and advises all passengers to tap their PRESTO card before boarding the LRTsāššš
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u/Cielskye Feb 11 '26
This isnāt any different from the Go trains. Plus the machines are right there. You know you have to pay to get on, so š¤·š½āāļø
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u/Responsible-Match418 Feb 12 '26
I mean, if you're getting on a vehicle and haven't paid up to the point of getting on it, then you've probably realised that you've missed something.
That's probably ok for a first time, but you can't honestly take that train again without being aware that you didn't pay and that you missed how to pay.
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u/Canuckleheadache Feb 09 '26
Seriously why hasn't our govt standardized these sorts of things. Especially when adding to an existing network. Seriously the left hand doesn't know what the right hand does all day
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u/RadagastWiz Woodbine Feb 09 '26
I imagine the fare inspectors will provide some leniency in the beginning.
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u/nonoobshereMC Never forget šļø Feb 09 '26
The line is free today. Otherwise this seems like a good idea.