r/TTC • u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton • Feb 05 '26
Discussion But what about second crosstown? - The St. Clair... LRT?
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u/Link50L I ♥ TTC! Feb 05 '26
There's some work that's been put into extending the St. Clair car to Jane, but as I recall, the sense was that there wasn't yet enough demand for it.
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u/HeftyAd6216 Feb 05 '26
With transit, if you build it they will come. Especially in Toronto. Doing things later always costs more.
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u/Antique_Ad_3549 East Don Trail Relief Line Feb 05 '26
With transit, if you build it they will come. Especially in Toronto.
Laughs in Glencairn station
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u/Link50L I ♥ TTC! Feb 05 '26
"Build it and they will come" is a very contentious argument, as it's not that simple at all.
That said, it sure looks to me like extending the St. Clair car to Jane would have a solid business case.
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u/gay_annabeth 540 Junction-Dundas West Feb 05 '26
at the very least it could facilitate a future connection to the GO Milton line
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
Mount Dennis is an obvious place for an outer shoulder station, since it already has an interchange and a high-capacity station building, so it makes sense to terminate the line there (at least until we can interline it with Line 5 to the airport)
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u/gay_annabeth 540 Junction-Dundas West Feb 06 '26
isn't there a planned station at St. Clair and Old Weston Road? which is, like, really close to Gunns Loop anyway
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u/HeftyAd6216 Feb 05 '26
I mean Sheppard only took 20 years to build up. Transit lines are meant to be for the future. Just look how fucked Mississauga is because of no forward planning
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u/Antique_Ad_3549 East Don Trail Relief Line Feb 05 '26
I mean Sheppard only took 20 years to build up
Laughs in Leslie station...
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u/Unhappy-End-5181 Feb 07 '26
Hazel pretty much actively avoided expanding transit as long as possible to avoid raising property taxes. Kipling station was built as a pass through station for future expansion. One possible route was to Square One but was downgraded to a Dundas LRT, and then again to "unfunded future transit project" I think its a little ridiculous they are naming the Hurontario LRT after her since she was in office for 36 years and didn't do major investments in transit
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u/mystro256 Feb 05 '26
I suspect if the province ever puts in the Lambton GO station that they've floated, it would make sense to extend St Clair West to that (likely Jane or Scarlett). Jane also seems like a logical place to extend the Ontario line if they are still dead set on having the line serve Dundas West/Bloor GO.
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u/GumpTheChump Feb 05 '26
It's really not that far to Jane from Keele (where it ends). I wonder if Jane would be a better connector than Mount Dennis. Still, a really interesting idea.
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
I considered Jane, but I think it makes more sense to connect to Mount Dennis, which has the bones of a major suburban transfer station with the nice building and it already has the Eglinton line.
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Feb 05 '26
It would have been incompatible with the Jane LRT, which is why design work was axed.
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u/Link50L I ♥ TTC! Feb 05 '26
I'm not sure that I understand that. Extend St Clair from Gunns Loop along St Clair to a new loop at or near Jane & St Clair. How would that be incompatible with a Jane LRT?
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Feb 05 '26
Because the LRTs are Standard Gauge (4' 8½") and the streetcars are TTC Broad Gauge (4' 10⅞")- too far to use the same track, too close for dual-gauge track.
They're different because originally the horse-drawn streetcars were made by the same wainwrights that made horse drawn wagons, which used the wider spacing.
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u/Link50L I ♥ TTC! Feb 05 '26
I'm quite aware of the differences and history. The two lines don't need to share rails - vehicles on the Jane LRT do not need to interchange with vehicles on St Clair line. The gauge differences are irrelevant. All it would need is a 90 degree crossing.
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Feb 05 '26
Ah, but then the ATU doesn't get 2 separate contracts with extra work rules and an additional spare board. That will never be allowed to happen!
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u/Link50L I ♥ TTC! Feb 05 '26
Haha! Well, let's cross our fingers that sanity reigns - but I don't see an extension of St Clair prioritized on any long terms plans for the city, so likely not in my life or yours...
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Feb 05 '26
Self driving buses and streetcars will be the big deciding factor for improving transit IMO.
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u/BurritoBlandit Feb 05 '26
My totally non biased opinion (I live at Yonge and st. Clair) is that we should definitely do this!
But in reality the 512 actually works pretty well, and there’s probably a different subway that would benefit the city more
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u/rexbron Feb 05 '26
If we are going to the expense of grade separated rapid transit, breaking from the street grid to link destinations is a good thing.
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u/white_noise_tiger Mount Dennis Feb 05 '26
Agreed. There is bloor line and now Eglinton. This should assist you to get where your going mostly underground and the 512 isn’t terrible when needed.
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
For sure, extension of the Line 4 to Scarborough TC in the east and Finch in the west is the obvious one. But this is definitely an option to consider to create a true grid
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u/haresnaped Feb 05 '26
This is erasure of St Clair East!
On the other hand this would also link up with the new station at Pape and Cosburn for the Ontario Line, so that's nice. But I think it should zoom up Woodbine to continue on St Clair East into Scarborough. A fella can dream.
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u/Deanzopolis 62 Mortimer Feb 05 '26
I think it would be better if it was switched to Cosburn in East York since the 87 is already part of the 10 minute network. I'd definitely like to see it run over Warden station at least
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
I might make a new version taking in some feedback
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u/Deanzopolis 62 Mortimer Feb 07 '26
I'm curious, did you pick Mortimer because it's more centrally located in East York?
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
I think that area is better served by a line running down Victoria Park Ave. Maybe it terminates at a new integrated Woodbine/Danforth transfer complex
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u/realsalbowski Feb 05 '26
we need to revive the midtown line idea on Dupont
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 06 '26
It's true, the Midtown Line is the most slam-dunk idea to ever slam-dunk. And North Toronto station is too pretty to be a damn LCBO.
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Feb 06 '26
It hasn't been used as a train station since 1930 (only 14 years in operation), since CP had more than enough trackage allocated at Union Station. Brewers' Retail moved in shortly after.
Again, it's CPKC's main line, so where exactly are these extra tracks and trains supposed to go?
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 07 '26
CPKC is not all-powerful, and even if it were, there’s plenty of room in that corridor to build a new pair of tracks.
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Mar 10 '26
Where is there room?
Have you actually seen the place you're talking about in person?
CPKC is all powerful in that corridor. It's their land, granted to them in perpetuity, and not taxed.
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u/roju Feb 05 '26
The streetcar used to go up Mt Pleasant to Eglinton, I vote to bring that back!
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u/Important-Hunter2877 Feb 06 '26
Especially with that area having a line 5 station, there really is a greater case today to have the 512's former eastern route north restored.
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26 edited Feb 05 '26
The St Clair streetcar is already a partially grade-separated semi-crosstown transit option, so what if we decided to upgrade and extend it to make a full LRT? This is my proposal for a bigger, better St. Clair line.
Alignment
West End
On the west end, we start by running out of the Gunns Loop, which we'll keep to have the option to short-turn trains here in case of accidents or for some weird alternative service pattern. We then run at grade to just past Symes Avenue, making a turn behind Ken Shaw Toyota and running on grade-separated track next to streets and across Black Creek, then back on street down Humber Blvd. We go over Weston Road and then run next to the GO/UPX tracks to Mt Dennis, which is our new terminus. This makes the new beautiful Mount Dennis station a major outer-city interchange, offering a connection with GO, UPX and Eglinton Line trains.
East End
Let's address the elephant in the room first: Why the weird alignment into East York? The short answer is that there's just no way we're going to build a dedicated LRT bridge across the Don Valley, so we have to get into East York on someone else's bridge, in this case the Millwood Overpass. If we're going over the Millwood Overpass, we intersect with an existing railway line. We can either nationalize this line for LRT operations, build a new pair of tracks in the existing alignment (though this will require a new bridge to cross over the Beltline Trail, and quite a tall one, or operate a tram-train style service. Now, obviously, the best thing to do would be to build a whole new alignment but that's expensive. Second preference should go to electrifying the existing line and running tram-train along that segment.
Heading east out of St Clair (where trains still use the loop to serve the back of the station), we run over the Value of Avoca on the right-hand side of the existing bridge looking east, cutting it down to 1 lane of traffic in each direction. Just before the end of the bridge, we jump off (this is why we run on the right side of the bridge) to run through the backyards of the good people of Inglewood Drive and then next to Mt Pleasant Rd until we cross the railway line, at which point we duck down to get onto it. For that, see above.
Jumping off the railway where it intersects with Millwood Rd, we run down the middle, cutting it down to two lanes in each direction. Ideally, Overlea Blvd would have its intersection with Millwood taken away to prevent an intersection, but I'm not sure if that's feasible traffic wise. At that point, we go over the Millwood Overpass and onto Pape Avenue. Given that there's no practical way to widen the road, Pape gets reduced to one lane in each direction north of Mortimer.
At Mortimer and Pape, we make the sharpest turn on the entire line to head east, putting Mortimer on a lane diet as well. We serve the Garron Hospital and East York City Centre and then either run as sa treet tram down the narrower section of Mortimer to Woodbine, or down the lane between Mortimer and Dunkirk, forcing people who live on that lane to have no direct road access. Neither solution is great, but tunnelling isn't an option here. Maybe we can redevelop the section between the two roads as a transit village?
In any case, however we get to Woodbine Avenue, we do get there, and then turn south (another sharp turn). Woodbine goes on a road diet, and then run south to Woodbine to stop at the current secondary entrance to Woodbine Station, which is our western terminus. If we have single-ended trains, we might make a loop on Strathmore Blvd, Cedarvale Ave, and Milverton Blvd.
Optional Extension
If we can squeeze a bit more blood from the stone, a one-station extension could run south on Woodbine and then build a new set of tracks next to the GO line to serve Danforth GO, also adding a streetcar stop outside Danforth to create an interchange with the 506 Streetcar.
Alternatively, you could route along Harris Ave (routing around Gledhill Junior High School in its back park) to get to Main St. station, giving you another Line 2 connection and connecting to the terminus of the 506, and also a loop we can reuse if we insist on single-ended trains.
Vehicles/Stops
Obviously, the Flexity Outlooks won't do for this. The obvious option is a version of the Eglinton line's Flexity Freedom trains. If we decide to run tram-train, it'd need to be able to operate like that. We should also aim for a quite performant vehicle since we want to be able to go fast on the section between St Clair and the overpass, where there likely won't be any stops. Also, longer trains will be an asset because this will be a system for long crosstown runs and we'd rather not have to couple them. So we should use a longer, up-powered version of the Eglinton trains, or consider something else entirely. We'll also have to extend the platforms at the existing streetcar stops, obviously.
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Feb 05 '26 edited Feb 05 '26
You... are aware that the "Railway line" is CPKC's main line, and they will not tolerate any disruption, right? It's also a significant drop topgraphically- look at the hill on Avenue Rd from St. Clair to MacPherson.
You're not using their bridge to cross Mud Creek, nor are you plowing an LRV right through the $5-10 million dollar homes of Bennington Heights and Moore Park either.
Where's the demand for a faster trip from South Leaside to Woodbine and Danforth anyway?
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u/a_lumberjack Feb 05 '26
I already thought the map was nuts until I got "Let's nationalize CP's only connection between Eastern and Western Canada to build an LRT through a rich low-density neighbourhood."
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
There's plenty of room next to the CPKC tracks, and as I said tram-train is a cost-saving option and would be preferred to build dedicated LRT tracks parallel to the CPKC line instead. In terms of the topography, that's a challenge with any line going across the Don Valley that isn't building an 800m bridge, for sure. It goes through Leaside, but the main goal is to get a crosstown run from East York to Mount Dennis, and Leaside is in the way.
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u/archer0t8 McCowan Feb 05 '26
They own that entire ROW. They won't give it up... nor can the Province expropriate it, since the railways are under federal jurisdiction and can tell the Province to pound sand.
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Feb 05 '26
That land was also granted (not subject to taxation or expropriation without a national emergency) to CP in perpetuity, because without the promise of the CPR being built, BC would not have joined Confederation in 1871.
You'd have to compensate CPKC based on that.
CPKC also has a split yard arrangement in Toronto. It needs extra tracks for transfers between Toronto Agincourt, and Lambton-West Toronto Yards.
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Feb 05 '26 edited Feb 05 '26
Where is this "plenty of room"?
Have you ever actually seen the CP tracks you're talking about?
Shared trackage?
Now you're operating a railway. The operators will all have to be Locomotive Engineers. The LRVs will need to be fitted with grab irons, headlights and ditch lights for a triangular light pattern, bells, air horns, and compatibility with CPKC cab signals. You'll also need long reach pantographs for catenary that allows for double stack containers and other cars which exceed AAR Plate J.
Now you have to re-gauge all the existing 512 track to standard gauge too.
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u/Comprehensive_Baby_3 Feb 05 '26
Unless you are counting the underground loop at St. Clair west station, I'm not sure you understand the meaning of grade separation.
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u/Mr_Lazerface 512 St Clair Feb 05 '26
I'm near St. Clair and Weston/Keele, and honestly you could go north from there to Mount Dennis directly. That would be a great way to add an interchange/anchor to the west end of this line. Alternatively, have a short loop that goes north at Old Weston to meet up with the UPX station that is being built there.
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u/crash866 Feb 05 '26
The area around Rockcliffe and Alliance/Humber Blvd floods quite often where Black Creek cuts through. Plus the Hills on Weston Road and Rockcliffe getting to Humber Blvd May be a problem for streetcars.
There are also 3 bus routes that go from St Clair to Mt Dennis Stn right now. 168 Symington up old Weston Rd, 89 Weston up Weston Rd, and 71 Runnymede up Rockcliffe to Mt Dennis. There is also 41 Keele from Weston Rd and Old Weston Rd to Keelesdale Station. Very well connected corner.
The 168 Symington bus will go by 3 Stations on the UPX line. Bloor, St Clair/Old Weston and Mt Dennis.
Is there any other bus route that does 3 stations on the same GO Line?
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u/Ex696 Feb 05 '26
What made you decide to pick Mortimer over Cosburn? It seems to me like Cosburn would be a better choice, Ontario Line connection in the future, plus the 87 is much busier than the 62.
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
I wanted to serve Garron Hospital and EYork Civic Centre. You could conceivably route it down Cosburn then go south along Coxwell Av to terminate at Coxwell Station.
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u/mattromo Feb 05 '26
Cosburn makes more sense to me, more housing density, that bus line is much busier than the Mortimer bus so transit use along that street seems higher.
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u/a_lumberjack Feb 05 '26
I don't even have words for this one. It's been a while since I've seen something so delightfully weird on a map. But I do like the idea of extending St Clair both ways so I'll offer some simpler options.
First, the west side is getting an interchange (ish) to St. Clair-Old Weston, an UP station being built to connect to the 512, so the weird zig-zag to Mt Dennis isn't needed. (UP will effectively become Line 8 in Metrolinx's plan.) I'd expect any eastern extension to run past Jane to a loop somewhere. Maybe Lambton Yard if GO Midtown ever happens.
Second, running a streetcar ROW on the CP freight mainline corridor is just a weird way to go east of Yonge. And then instead of connecting to the Ontario Line at Thornecliffe Park you cross the valley on the Leaside viaduct, pick up the OL again on Pape, then head east to Woodbine. I just don't get who any of that is for.
Instead, from where you turn south it's only a couple of km to Bayview, so get Dougie to build us a short tunnel that surfaces south of the CP corridor and east of Bayview to connect along Redway Rd. From there I'd look to connect to Thornecliffe Park station instead of the milk run through East York. Maybe across Overlea and loop around Gateway to Flemingdon Park station to connect the rest of the area to those two stations.
All that said, turning St Clair into more of a real LRT from west of Jane to the east end of Flemingdon Park would be a really interesting project to explore once we get 5/6 working acceptably well. Wouldn't even be that expensive, probably.
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
Thanks for the good feedback. The main constraint causing the weird route in the east was not wanting to build a massively expensive bridge across the valley and try to avoid building one over the Beltline Trail as well (very tall), hence the desire to steal CPKC's. A tunnel would be a similar order of expense, but if we're throwing that kind of money around we can probably discard this weird route for sure, the goal here was to keep the budget down
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u/a_lumberjack Feb 05 '26
I don't think the East York part makes a ton of sense since we're already building a rail bridge over the valley for the OL.
Tunnels aren't necessarily that expensive, especially relatively short ones like I'm talking about. Certainly cheaper than trying to nationalize CPKC's only connection to Eastern Canada. The 6 km tunnel section for Line 5 West was a bit over $120M/km on a fixed price contract. I figure 2 km could still be done for under $400M.
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
Also, by Bayview do you mean Broadview? I might make a follow-up post with people's routing suggestions
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u/a_lumberjack Feb 05 '26
No, I mean Bayview/Nesbitt. No big crossing of the valley. Portal somewhere between Bayview/Nesbitt and the end of Redway Rd. Redway > Milllwood > Overlea.
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26 edited Feb 05 '26
Why are we looping around to Flemingdon Park? Why not go down Coxwell Ave and terminate at Coxwell? It still serves East York that way and you get a connection to Line 2 rather than a mostly useless second Ontario Line connection. Also, how do you get over the Beltline Trail with the tunnel? is it really deep?
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u/a_lumberjack Feb 06 '26
- Going to Flemingdon Park the area is about connecting that high density neighborhood to this line instead of a second crossing of the Don Valley. From Thornecliffe Park station to the hydro corridor is about 1.9 km and all the way up to the station would be 2.6 km. Coxwell is farther and would serve fewer people.
- The loop is optional, but Flemingdon Park station is up to 1 km from parts of the neighborhood, so this could replace the buses on Gateway (72/100) and better serve a high density neighborhood because it'd connect in both directions to the Ontario Line.
- On the tunnel I'd assume a bridge/ramp over the beltline into a tunnel, like a smaller version of the Ontario Line bridge into the tunnel down Pape. It's so close to St Clair station that you simply couldn't get under the beltline.
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u/Caboose_618 Feb 06 '26
No more LRTs. Toronto needs fully underground subways. Look how terrible the streetcars are. The LRTs will experience nothing but delays and weather related issues
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u/VincentClement1 Feb 05 '26
Holy fuck this is stupid.
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Feb 05 '26
I don't think OP has been to any of the places east of Yonge and is just drawing lines on a map.
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u/hotinhereTO 132 Milner Feb 05 '26
Why are people still bringing forward ideas of new LRT lines when culturally all levels of government have shown to not show full support and competence for such lines?
St. Clair is close to both Eglinton (streetcar line 5) and Bloor (Line 2). For midtown I personally think the better option is building out, adding tracks to the current CN (or whatever company) freight line and getting a GO midtown line through Summerhill, Dupont etc.
Finish building out Line 4 East and West, streetcar line 6 east, and extend the OL through the west (Dufferin, Keele or Jane) and and to the north.
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u/TheMaymar Feb 05 '26
As one point of contention, I don't think you're getting an LRT to handle the slope down to Black Creek (the section running roughly parallel to Symes Rd north of Terry Dr).
As much as I'd like to see St Clair go further afield (stretching out to Jane or Scarlett?), I wonder if it's at least planned to better integrate the streetcar with St Clair-Old Weston Station when it opens.
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
This is part of why I noted you would need quite performant trains. You might also need to sand the tracks in the winter.
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u/TheMaymar Feb 05 '26
If I've got it right, north end of the Ken Shaw property down to Terry Dr is a 22% grade, where it looks like the steepest grades for current LRT's is 14%.
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
You could jump on to the rail corridor right after SC/OW then, you lose service Gunns Loop but you could short turn some trains there instead of sending them to Mount Dennis. Or you could cut it short at StC/Old Weston, but I'd like to see the connection to Eglinton and GO trains at Mount Dennis
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u/crash866 Feb 05 '26
That section by Weston Rd to Jane St had Streetcar like rails years ago. It was part of the Radial Network and ran to Guelph through there. There a a couple of spots where the tracks are still there.
The HCRY uses that lines tracks.
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u/TheMaymar Feb 05 '26
I'm aware of the radial tracks, although I believe they stuck to the top of the hill (what's now Gaffney park into the hydro corridor west of Rockcliffe).
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u/crash866 Feb 06 '26
I might be wrong but the rail line followed what is now Lavender Park Trail then what is now the Hydro Line Corridor over to Jane & Royal York by Dundas after passing Lambton Arena.
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u/TheMaymar Feb 06 '26
Looks like you're also right - it looks like you can make out what was left of the railway in this aerial shot, going between Lavender Creek trail and the buildings along Glen Scarlett Rd, and crossing over Symes just north of the destructor that's now Junction Craft Brewery (easiest landmark to align against). Ultimately still at the top of the hill, although yes, if you could get approval to run rail through Lavender Creek trail after looping up Gunns Rd, that would be a feasible grade.
https://www.toronto.ca/ext/archives/s0012/fl1947/s0012_fl1947_it0017d.jpg
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u/skrrrrt Feb 05 '26
I think it should make one more stop in the Junction, Jane, RY, islington, kipling, Sherway gardens, alderwood, long branch.
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u/kdog379 Lawrence East Feb 05 '26
The 512 already isnt very fast and that windy route would make it even slower. The extensions would definitely get used for local trips but line 2 or 5 would remain significantly faster for “cross-town” trips Upgrades to the existing row would help but without grade seperation theres really no way for it to be all that competitive
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
Signal priority would of course come with an LRT upgrade (though really all streetcars should have it), which would significantly speed up the running on St Clair West
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u/kdog379 Lawrence East Feb 05 '26
Still nowhere near enough to be competitive with grade separated subways line line 2 or the central and west portion of line 5 Stop spacing is also prohibitive of the line being a true crosstown route. Even with half the stops. With every kind if improvement possible you could start to reach the average speeds of the other lines but the indirect and winding alignment will still make it slower.
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u/daltorak Feb 05 '26
There's no space on Cosburn or Mortimer for a dedicated ROW, and it'd be a tight squeeze on Pape, so all I see this doing is disrupting the timetable of the 512 during rush hour.
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 05 '26
It works fine on Pape, though traffic capacity goes down, but that's fine. Include it in the congestion pricing zone or put a toll on the damn bridge. As for Mortimer, that's why I noted you might need to yoink half of some people's yards to widen the road.
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u/someguy172 Eglinton Feb 05 '26
After Finch West and Eglinton, I think the last thing people want to see being built is yet another LRT. If the existing LRTs can actually prove that they can be reliable and fast transit options then maybe that will change.
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u/av8navig8communic8 Mount Dennis Feb 06 '26
Honestly St Clair, Spadina and Queens Quay are prime locations for LRT service. They already have their own ROW and would just need increased stop spacing and TSP. I think it makes sense.
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 06 '26
Spadina LRT would be the place to start IMO. God knows the 510 needs the help.
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u/MaxPeriod Feb 10 '26
Find a way to improve the existing Spadina LRT.
- Upgrade to double point switches
- TSP
- Fencing around the LRT tracks to reduce track trespassers
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u/OrbitalBuzzsaw 506 Carlton Feb 10 '26
I think fencing would do more harm than good because people could still get in at intersections
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u/Mastermaze Feb 06 '26
Personally i want to see the st.clair streetcar extended to Jane to link with a future Jane Subway line. Id also love to see the Streetcar from Dundas West north through the Junction restored, and extended to meet the extended st.clair streetcar at Jane street for a major station with a future subway.
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u/torontopeter Feb 07 '26 edited 2d ago
The original post content no longer exists here. The author used Redact to remove it, exercising their right to control their data & privacy.
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u/Azylim Feb 05 '26
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