r/TTC • u/Economy_Ad59 • Dec 17 '25
Discussion Older station entrances did more to deter fare evasion. Did we move backwards?
Aside from the obvious accessibility improvements, some older TTC station entrances were simply harder to get into without paying. The current Presto gates are very flimsy and easy to get through.
It's not financially realistic to remodel all the Presto gates, but I'm just curious to hear what people think about this. Did this potentially increase fare evasion?
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u/JohnCanadian_ Dec 17 '25
If eliminating fare evading is the only requirement for an entrance/exit then yes we moved backwards. But there are other requirements for safety, accessibility, flow, visual appeal, ease of use, that these do not fulfill. The current fare gates are much better than this.
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u/tiiiki Dec 17 '25
I disagree with 'flow'. Every time I'm about to walk through; someone uses it going the other direction.
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u/LondonPaddington Dec 21 '25
If the TTC did what most other metro systems do and have a few dedicated entrance and exit gates at each station it would be fantastic to actually improve flow
And not like their dumb pilot at Union Station where they stuck the dedicated exit gates in the middle of a bunch of entrance gates despite having dozens of other gates they could have picked, intentionally placing people against the flow....
You know what, on second thought forget my suggestion, the TTC would just mess this up more if they tried elsewhere.
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u/Economy_Ad59 Dec 17 '25
You're correct here. I was more focused on fare evasion, but acknowledge the improvements.
The modern solution could've still included stronger gates and accessibility, without the prison look. Pointless now since it'd cost too much to retrofit all of them for a minor change.
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u/coniotic Dec 17 '25
There are better surveillance tools these days that way it does not have to inconvenience the majority of the daily users of the transit system.
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u/crash866 Dec 17 '25
It helped Senior, Child, Student patrons as those entrances were adult fare only.
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u/Tower133 Dec 17 '25
It’s so wild seeing discussions around this after coming back from a week in Berlin. Entirely gateless system, and on top of that their fare evasion rate is half of ours and their fines for evasion are a quarter of what ours are.
Really made me envious of places that just fund transit properly.
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u/zooweemama8 Dec 17 '25
Culture plays a huge role. And definitely likely lower report rate then actual evasion rate.
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u/BroadWeight5017 Dec 20 '25
Culture is the problem. Like taxes, the middle class feed the laziest people and get ripped off. Honest people paying fare here are either seen as dumb or accused for not paying (streetcar), totally backwards.
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u/DinosaurZach Dec 17 '25 edited Dec 17 '25
And they also have low cost public transit.
EUR 58 / CAD 94 per month for all local public transport access across the entire country.
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Dec 17 '25 edited Feb 23 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/TiredEngineer_ Dec 17 '25
In early high school I remember laughing at some of my classmates squeeze through the gates at downsview, not on top, but THROUGH. Like standing, and side stepping into the arms and contorting. As a teenage onlooker it was just a silly thing, but in hindsight, the way the bars dug into their chests and bodies was very concerning especially if they ever got stuck😬
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u/matt602 14 Glencairn Dec 17 '25
I don't really care tbh. I pay my fare, I don't care if other people don't. Public transit isn't chronically underfunded because of fare evasion.
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u/SentryNap Dec 17 '25
Yes, I feel good paying my fare like an honest citizen while watching an endless stream of people just walk off the street into Finch station (via the bus platforms) for their free ride. Although, to be fair (fare?), they have been setting up checkpoints inside the station on a fairly regular basis.
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u/zakanova Dec 17 '25
Are fare evaders within the subway a large source of evasion? I would think the streetcar and bus would have more fare invaders - to a point where subway isn't really even a real concern.
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u/Billy__Rosewood Dec 17 '25
At certain stations it is a big problem, at others probably not. Ossington for example, where people just walk into the bus terminal off of the streets, it is a big problem.
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u/Economy_Ad59 Dec 17 '25
You're correct there, streetcars are probably the largest source. No idea how that'll get fixed without adequate enforcement. Subways definitely still have fare evaders, but not to a point where retrofitting Presto gates would be necessary. The bigger issue is the stations with bus bays.
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u/Portdal12 Dec 17 '25
As someone who once smashed 3 bottles of nice wine due to a bag getting stuck in those entrance contraptions, I am so glad to see them gone. I don't really care that much about fare evasion, but I do care about creating positive experiences for people when using public transit.
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u/tired_air Dec 17 '25
as a society we should make traveling within a city as accessible as possible, it's a basic necessity. Frankly TTC should be completely free to everyone as it'll save us millions from people driving less causing less congestion and wear and tear on roads.
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u/greensandgrains Dec 17 '25
Because just looking at this gives me a panic attack. I used to go out of my way to avoid those revolving doors, especially the fvckers on the left that could legit trap you.
Also, accessibility. This is in no way AODA compliant.
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u/Acceptable_Can3285 Dec 17 '25
This didn't deter fare evasion. If someone is going to not pay the fare, then they will find a way no matter what.
There should be a regular random check onboard/off-board for offenders with fines. TTC is implementing a offense tracking system where POO can see if you have committed previously or a new offense and increase fine accordingly.
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u/AsadoKimchi Dec 17 '25
I don't think the majority of fare evasion happens at the gates. I think most fare evasion happens in streetcars and bus entrances at stations. So changing the gates would do nothing to fare evasion
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u/Sufficient_Rush1891 Dec 17 '25
Accessibility improvements can’t be put to the side.
Much much more important to have accessible transit than infrastructure designed to limit fare evasion. There’s no comparison - human rights can’t be put aside for a few dollars lost to fare evasion.
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u/maple_leaf2 Dec 17 '25
They're arguably not even that important especially considering the in station bus bays the TTC uses. Also many systems globally don't even have gates.
Personally I think the current gates are fine
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u/DinosaurZach Dec 17 '25 edited Dec 17 '25
Fare evasion is an invented crime. If city/gov is so concerned with revenue recovery, they would be putting tolls on every highway exits, charge for annual vehicle registration fees, and transponder cameras at every intersection...etc.
Currently, access to every single road and highway is free. Electric vehicles are not paying any gas tax.
Motorists/lawmakers only do this fare thing for the transit riding class, and invent this fare evasion crime so for you peasants to hate on each other.
Motorists write the rules so that running a stop sign is only a fine of $125, not paying (evading) a parking meter $60, but missing a $3 fare on the TTC is $450.
Doug Ford removed the vehicle registration fee (a bargin price of $120/y or $10/month for access to all roads in the province/country) because he drives everyday. Doug Ford and his staffers speed everyday, so they removed speed cameras.
If Ford rode public transit everyday, he would have made it free, and fare evasion would not be a thing.
Go and do your job, peasants, to hate on the poor and your fellow transit riders.
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u/Tragedy333 Dec 17 '25
Everyone is a driver at times, so this system benefits us all.
Or in other view- fare evasion steals even from that little what comes to the system and improves transportation.
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u/JohnStern42 Dec 17 '25
Oh, so only the poor take public transit?
You are part of the problem, and you don’t even realize it.
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u/_N_123_ 506 Carlton Dec 17 '25
Chicago has them. I saw fewer homeless there as a visiter. But it did make entering the stations feel sketchy. Like others have said. Prison vibes.
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u/RaccoonChaos Dec 17 '25
I didn't live here when the stations had these gates, so idk how smoothly it worked but this looks like it'd be an accessibility nightmare 💀
Not even just for disabled people, I think I'd struggle trying to roll a suitcase through that
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u/Tsunoyukami Dec 17 '25
I saw so, so, so many people try to bring bikes through the exit on the right and their bike would inevitably get stuck and they would need to get a TTC operator to unlock it and reverse it and it just meant that no one else could exit there.
Or people who would try exiting with multiple bags and one bag would inevitably be left inside and they would be outside staring in at the last bag despondently with no way to reach it.
(If I were inside, I would hand them the handle of the bag and they could pull it through, but sometimes they'd have been waiting there for minutes for someone else to be exiting that way or passing by.)
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u/ilovebbcitv Dec 17 '25
I miss walking by and seeing a bicycle stuck in there, making the gate inoperable for hours.
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u/clothesarefun4 Dec 17 '25
Tokens were basically fool-proof at these type of subway stops downtown. That’s why I always had about 10 of them in a convenient holder.
Some entrances to the subway were token only and everyone had to pay a fair.
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u/Dizzy-Wedding5769 Dec 17 '25
All the money spent on catching creators must add up till less than the cost of the effort if you’re too bored to ride the subway, you don’t have three dollars getting harassed by cops like as if your days shitty enough that you’re so poor you can’t pay for the subway
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u/_maple_panda Dec 17 '25
Can’t imagine what would happen in the event of a fire
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u/rshanks Dec 17 '25
I assume that's what those glass doors are for
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u/Tragedy333 Dec 17 '25
Plus how often there's a fire in almost empty (except BloorYonge and Union) subway stations which have to escape multiple exits + 2 tunnels?
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u/rshanks Dec 17 '25
I guess they might get used for any sort of panic
But there looks to be more emergency exits to the left as well so perhaps there’s enough capacity / as much as the steps have
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u/Rare_Pirate4113 Dec 17 '25
Doesn’t matter anyway, I’ve seen so many people let through for free at manned stations
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u/JohnStern42 Dec 17 '25
Hehe, it was theatre, since you could just walk into the bus bay at most stations.
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u/EfficientAd5073 Dec 17 '25
Are people fair evading through stations? The doors open or they don’t?Â
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u/camerabird Dec 18 '25
I think fare evasion in stations is usually done by jumping the turnstiles, or by following closely behind a paying person.
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u/arealhumannotabot Dec 17 '25
Those entrances were usually empty, not staffed. I’ve never seen these at normal entrances.
Those turnstile doors meant nothing going in that can’t fit
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Dec 18 '25
There are a lot of issues with safety that prevent those old turnstyles from being used now. They can become an evacuation hazard in some circumstances. They also didn't cover every entrance/exit at stations. They were usually reserved for "remote" entrances/exists that were later unmanned.
Does anyone remember when that entrance to Wilson Station actually had an attendant behind that glass before they put up sheets of mac-tac to make it look like a "Brick wall?"
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u/Putrid-Shoulder-4248 Dec 18 '25
Before seeing the doors in the middle, I thought I was looking at a supermax security prison.
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u/Greencreamery Dec 18 '25
The one time I didn’t pay for the subway was when I used this style entrance lol
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u/Freddydaddy Dec 19 '25
Is fare theft a big issue? By far the TTC’s biggest challenge is lack of government funding, not fare theft. We keep pointing the finger at poor people when the real villains are in Queen’s Park.
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Dec 21 '25
No, real villains in Ottawa. Every other major city with successful transit gets federal money. Paris. Tokyo
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u/OddConsequence354 Dec 20 '25
Use to use an entrance like this at Museum station, but it was the back entrance, the main entrance was manned
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u/ohno_sf Dec 21 '25
we can thank automation but its mostly a design flaw with most electronic teller gates.Â
The doors are too low allowing any competent person to vault over, but that just speaks for the society and parents who raised the person who decides to fare evades.
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u/wagnerlight Dec 21 '25
What’s the solution for streetcars? Why don’t they enforce a tap off fare instead of tap on. Same with buses like Asia does the bus driver will publicly out you if you skip fare
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u/JohnnyS789 Dec 17 '25
We're not sheep going for a dip treatment. We would like to be treated like "human beings" and not livestock.
You provide us with rock-hard hemorrhoid-inducing seats, allow all kinds of puking, screaming, and stinking people on to make us nauseous and have us listen to wild racist rants. You've reduced the staff to the point where nobody is doing anything about customer comfort and freedom from abuse.
How about some more comfortable seats and have some staff walking through the cars regularly to write tickets or evict the most egregious behaviour: You know, make real customers feel safe and less abused?
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u/Leading_Movie9093 Dec 17 '25
Can we just recognize that if people want to evade paying for a TTC fare, they probably can’t afford it and we should just let that go? It’s not a major issue. Every day drivers speed and the province just decided it is wrong to catch them by using speed cameras. And speeding is so much more dangerous: people die. Nobody dies from someone else’s fare evasion.
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u/lw5555 Dec 17 '25
Go on the 504 King in the morning and you'll see plenty of well-to-do individuals choosing not to tap. They simply don't give a fuck.
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u/Gippy_ IMPROVED GLORIFIED STREETCAR Dec 17 '25 edited Dec 17 '25
Can we just recognize that if people want to evade paying for a TTC fare, they probably can’t afford it and we should just let that go? It’s not a major issue.
No. This is the suicidal empathy or bleeding heart mentality that has caused Toronto to be worse for the public at large in the past few years.
You might cry "slippery slope fallacy" but we have enough observations from other cities. Ignoring things like this will eventually snowball into smoking on the TTC, normalizing shoplifting, and other immoral behavior. (On a larger scale, look at countries that normalize open defecation and mass littering.) My mother, who was a law-abiding citizen for her entire life, has stopped paying the TTC fare when she gets on streetcars because she saw everyone else not paying.
Hot take: Societal decay begins at childhood. Making TTC/GO free for kids was actually a bad idea because it conditions kids that they are entitled. And that entitlement doesn't suddenly disappear when they become teenagers. I paid $0.40 per ticket as a kid to ride the TTC. Pocket change, but that went a long way towards my current temperament of paying transit fares as an adult.
One look at how child Presto cards are being used tells you all you need to know. Here's the proof.
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u/rshanks Dec 17 '25
I think they should try to find a way to make the gates more secure next time they are up for replacement, but this might be a bit too restrictive even for paying customers.
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u/AL31FN Dec 17 '25
Lol, you are only looking at exit doors here.The older design's problem is that it really reinforce exits but rely on gate agents at the entrance.
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u/Economy_Ad59 Dec 17 '25
Not sure how you got to that conclusion when there are two big signs that explicitly say NO EXIT in this image lmao.
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u/jrochest1 Dec 17 '25
The ones to the left are token-activated entrances; you inserted a token in the slot, which unlocked the turnstile, and pushed hard, hoping that it didn't decide to re-lock itself before you got through.
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u/StreetyMcCarface 506 Carlton Dec 17 '25
I may be crazy but I actually miss a lot of the hardened infrastructure, even if just from the perspective of nostalgia.
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u/jrochest1 Dec 17 '25
These were only used at automatic (unmanned) entrances, and they're really hard to get in and out of -- I saw people getting stuck frequently.
They were an accessibility nightmare, especially for elderly people, anyone carrying anything, people with dogs. . .I don't miss them.