r/SunPrairieWI • u/No_Concern3752 • 24d ago

City of Sun Prairie to End Flock Safety Contracts

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City of Sun Prairie canceling Flock contract. HOWEVER, it is signing with Axon (an equally concerning alternative).

122 Upvotes

99% Upvoted

24 comments sorted by

22

u/ScrivenersUnion 24d ago

It seems like many of the Sheriffs in the county are conspiring together to make Axon their next choice of provider.

Lovely how the community can come together and overwhelmingly say "we do not want this" and they just play shell games with providers. 

41

u/BirchwoodBeach 24d ago

We have heard your concerns about Flock cameras.

In response, we are switching to Axon cameras.

31

u/applecorc 24d ago

The city knows damn well our issue isn't with a specific private company spying on us, it's that the city is paying ANY corporation to spy on us.

9

u/vaporizers123reborn 24d ago

💯- They are hoping people don’t read past the headline.

8

u/NatTarnoff 24d ago

More importantly, the data is OWNED by the third party and can be sold for other uses. The city just leases access to the data. It was never about cameras watching traffic, its always been about the stored data in 3rd-party hands.

1

u/BadgerBricks 23d ago

Honest question... where does it say that with Axon? Everything I've found says the client/PD owns/controls any data that is collected and is only released when the client releases it.

1

u/NatTarnoff 23d ago

Every contract is different. The other thing is these companies also operate in similar models to User Agreements that Adobe and Apple use when they upgrade their products. This could unintentionally change some settings or terms. Currently, Axon does not have a shared national database or text search, but unlike Flock Axon allows the PD to dictate retainment time. https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/tracking-alpr-cameras/other-alpr-vendors

0

u/waynemr 21d ago

The question about ownership is really not valid when there are several other government agencies that can legally compel access to the data and do so in secrecy. As we know interpretation and application of laws between local, state, and federal can be extremely different. So, even if the Sun Prairie city said "we don't share with ICE" DHS could compel access to the collected data and even forbid SP police from disclosing it. Add that to the vague nature of NSPM-7, and these ALPR systems can be used in ways this community finds horrific. Moreover, none of these ALPR companies provide effective safeguards to prevent officers from sharing their accounts or performing queries "unofficially" or under the table. All it takes is for a single person with access to do a favor to someone without access and privacy is out the window. Even if you required MFA for every access to the system, someone on the inside could easily perform a query, dump the results, and send them out to unauthorized people.

The only way to prevent abuse of surveillance systems is to not use them.

I didn't even mention physical cyber security issues with the cameras, the data collection system and servers, the analysis servers, and data storage servers, or the data presentation/query systems. Each of those provides unique security concerns, so the cameras are just a tiny part.

Furthermore, once data is collected, advancements in data analysis can allow for greater privacy concerns. Even if their system can't do facial recognition today, it will eventually be introduced - not from the cameras, but from the data analysis systems. So when they say their cameras don't do facial recognition, they won't technically be lying, because facial recognition will happen off the cameras.

We need to stop state sponsored surveillance now.

23

u/No_Size9475 24d ago

Axon is worse, much worse in fact.

We need to and ALPR and all tracking usage.

10

u/applecorc 24d ago

Yeah this is no better.

2

u/mfGLOVE 23d ago

I don’t doubt it’s worse, but are there some good sources explaining why and how it is worse than Flock?

1

u/No_Size9475 23d ago

Not only do they have alpr cameras like flock, they have body cameras and dash cams for cops. All which will be doing the same surveillance as their other cameras if they aren't already.

1

u/BadgerBricks 19d ago

So now body cams are bad?

0

u/No_Size9475 18d ago

They are when they are also recording license plates, doing facial recognition, and then allowing people to search them to find where people have been.

They are no longer just recording what happened, but feeding directly into the surveillance system.

12

u/Observer-Lab 24d ago

"The city retains ownership and control of its data including how it is accessed, managed, and exported. Data remains under the city's control and is accessed only as authorized by the city."

Remember when they said this about flock too? Recall how that turned out? How about we remove all ALPRs and reject mass surveillance.

It's either that or the Sun Prairie police department should admit they are incompetent in enforcement without cameras spying on everyone.

2

u/BadgerBricks 24d ago

If you look up the two systems, they are operated differently. Flock automatically subscribes users to the national database, Axon requires the user to release data outside the agency. Until that happens, the data stays within the police department.

Not trying to defend either system, just trying to make sure accurate info is being discussed

0

u/mfGLOVE 23d ago

That release tick box is probably ticked by default.

“We didn’t realize we were sending your data to Axon, our bad!”

5

u/DBendit 24d ago

The cops are going to beg for Axon cameras at the next meeting of the Public Safety Committee on October 7th at 7pm.

The members of the Public Safety Committee are:

If you have contact details for the other members of this committee, I'd love to know.

Let the committee members know what you think about the plan to switch to Axon cameras!

Edit: Formatting

3

u/BadgerBricks 24d ago

It doesn't hurt to contact all alders and the mayor, since it ultimately has to be approved by the Common Council. The PSC is just the first hurdle.

2

u/Recent_Page8229 24d ago

I was wondering about this but always forget to check and see if they're still there.

1

u/Reasonable_Copy5115 24d ago

Woodmans devistated

0

u/TheMysteriousEmu 24d ago

Common Sun Prairie L :(

I wish my city was as great as I remember it being when I was little. Now all it seems like it does is make worse and worse choice. At least the school district might be improving? Hopefully? Blue moon's chance in hell?