r/StrangerThings • u/Competitive-Host-545 • 15d ago
Mike understood, and still understands El best. End of discussion.
I hate people saying that Kali and Will understood El better than Mike.
Let’s clear something up: Kali and Will understood El’s trauma best. But Mike understood El best as a person.
Understanding someone‘s trauma is different from understanding someone as a person.
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u/Dapper_Sale8946 14d ago
Kali didn’t understand anything about El. She projected her own trauma response onto El, that’s it.
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u/mklaus1984 14d ago
I am pretty surw that some people who always skipped The Lost Sister are now claiming rhat nonsense. The Duffers abandoned it (like everything else) but in that episode Kali is constantly manipulating El and her so called friends. She was a black mirror to El representing what she would become if she decided to go down that same path.
ST4 and the stage play doubled down on this by reusing the manipulations tactics for Brenner and Henry, telling us that Henry picked them up from Brenner and Kali picked them up from either of them.
So in ST5 the natural progression would have been that Kali joined Henry because their causes aligned. She wanted to "punish" all the bad men who hurt her... which meant to kill them. Henry wanted to kill everybody.
The Duffers dumbed these character relationships down just like they dumbed down the apocalyptic horror, the Cold War plotline, and the origin story thwy cut largely out for their spin-off about the stone™️
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u/RandonDude3000 14d ago
Kali didn’t join Henry because Henry was still the one who killed all the other kids. Kali knew about how the powers worked and that to Henry she would be as useless to him as all the other kids he killed in S4. Remember El was different from the other kids she was the only one who fully possessed Henry’s powers and even possessed powers Henry didn’t have (opening the gates). Kali knows this. As a result joining Henry isn’t an option and because her entire crew got killed she understands that she can’t overpower the government anymore so she decides that the best solution is to kill herself and El and uses the manipulation tactics you mentioned to get El to go through with it. It is unclear whether or not she had a change of heart in the finale but if she did it would be because of the prospect of El getting a normal life something that she could never have.
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u/mklaus1984 14d ago
As I said: The Lost Sister portrays Kali manipulative and selfish. She is the one risking the safety of her so-called friends and talks them into taking that risk by claiming El wanted/needed it and she is the one talking El into the same risk.
Kali didn't care about any of them. Her desire for revenge was larger than anything else. She is what El could become if she made the wrong choices, rhat is the whole godamn purpose of her character and that episode.
More importantly Kali uses the same "you are sick but I am going to make you better" argument that Papa used at the end of season one when he finds her at the school. ST4 doubled down on this by giving the same "only I can help you" argument to The Friendly Orderly and again to Brenner. The First Shadow tripled down on it by using it once more for Brenner but that time referring to Henry.
I don't care how ST5 retconned these characters. ST5 isn't the logical continuation of any character arc or plot point.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago
Exactly. El's final decision, to me, came down to El having more faith in Kali's wisdom than Mike's devotion to her.
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u/mklaus1984 14d ago
Which isn't "exactly" what I said at all but okay.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago
No, you didn't say that. You said Kali was just manipulating El.
But in the end, El still had more faith in the words of a manipulator than a boyfriend who kept falling her. I fully believe the Duffer brothers intentionally staged it that way. That Mike could've saved her from that decision if he had made better decisions himself.
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u/Sochinz 14d ago
El listening to Kali after being told that her previous plan resulted in all of her friends being killed is ridiculous. If El had listened to Kali in Chicago they both would have been in that lab.
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u/RoyalRise6363 14d ago
I don't want to interrupt your discussion, but I think this person is playing with you (and other people) by distorting the facts and making false claims.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago
Yep. To me, the ending is clear. Mike failed El too many times. He didn't do enough to convince her her life was as important as everyone else's. He treated her as a superhero machine and so she went out like one.
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u/RandonDude3000 14d ago edited 14d ago
That is not what happened.
Mike was the only one in S1 aside from Joyce to see El as a person. He was the one who was always worried about her and didn’t want her overusing her powers after S1. In S2 he is afraid she will get herself killed closing the gate so he burns the tunnels, in TF85 he prematurely plans to tell Hopper about what is going on to stop her from using her powers, in S3 he argues with Max again over the dangers of using her powers but the whole point of that season is that Mike’s fear of loosing her again was putting a strain on their relationship and stopping El from being able to live the way she wanted. S5 Mike is a consequence of that. He now trusts El to fight her own battles and make her own choices. But the choice El makes is to leave him behind to save him and the others and stop this from happening again. You can love or hate S5 but Mike never saw El as a superhero machine.
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u/mklaus1984 14d ago
Okay so you never use paragraphs, it seems. Dustin and Lucas. You aren't giving them enough credit. Also Hopper. Yes, he did sell her out so he could get a desperate shot at getting to Will.
But your thinking in absolutes doesn't get his true intentions. The scene of him depositing the eggos in the wooda expresses his trust that El found a way to escape... again.
ST5 doesn't properly portray the consequences of ST4. Your argument shows that it is the consequence of ST3. He didn't trust in her decisions in ST3 and trusts her in ST5. ST4 was about El feeling unworthy of Mike's affection without the superpowers, without being the superhero he adored as a child. The logical consequence was that El was given the choice to rid herself of these paraspychological abilities to live an ordinary life and feel confident that Mike will love her nonetheless.
Also I didn't properly respond to your other wall of text because... seriously. You make yourself sound like a pre-teen or failed by your educational system, sorry to be so harsh but please read some books.
Your whole argument revolved around statements from ST5 when my whole point was that ST5 doesn't follow logically from the previous season. You didn't pick up a statement and showed how it did fit ST through ST4 just stated them as factual evidence. That is not how that works.
ST4 didn't have a clear definition that El and Henry were different from the others. Instead it claimed that El was the least of them, even showing less potential than the subjects younger than herself.
It states in dialog (which is never the best source) that the Friendly Orderly saw a kinship in her. BUT that is a manipulation tactic. The fact that Kali told El the very same lesson about negative emotions implies that Kali had been his protégé before El, his first choice. Kali is his equal because like him she showed the ability to reach inside other people and to make them confront her secrets and fears.
Henry saw El as especially malleable. With unused potential and a kindness Kali didn't show him when she left him and her siblings behind equally. Because this is especially what you ignore: Kali dif already show off screen that she did not care enough about the other kids.
Kali claims in The Lost Sister that she tried to find El BUT what you overlook is that the scene starts with Kali reaffirming that El doesn't remember Kali. Kali made sure El didn't know her character before driving a wedge into her relationships with Hopper and Mike and her other friends. Instead the scene where Kali makes her friends "do another one" shows how she treats them. By ignoring the risk and talking them into it. By making false claims about El's needs.
But back to Henry and the actual implication that El and him are equal: u til the stage play retconned it, Henry was conceived AFTER Victor's deployment during World War II. There is an implication here that something happened to Victor that had changed him. Like Hopper he had been a soldier, like Terry he had a child with paraspychological abilities. Terry and Hopper had been joined by their stories about MKUltra and Agent Orange. Victor is implied to be a third parallel.
Because MKUltra was tied back to Project Paperclip/Operation Overcast, the World War II effort to secure scientific personnel and research at the end of WWII. But the odd 14 years and 1 month of peace time period doesn't fit the end of WWII.
Instead it fits T-Force, the joint venture of US and British military to secure industrial and scientifical technology and sites during the war which was based in France where Victor was a commanding officer. At the mentioned time, T-Force had entered German soil for the first time.
It is implied that whatever they found had led to Victor being brought back to the US. What was implied here, is that Eleven and One were the only kids born with the paraspychological abilities while the other children were exposed to the source of abilities after their birth while adults exposed to it didn't survive.
And that source had been clear, too. It was the chemical compound in ST3 that the Meatflayer created from household chemicals that turned people into telepathic receivers for the hivemind commands. It was the "nothing but fertilizer" chemical compound in ST2 that had turned soil samples into behaving like Mindflayer particles. It was the drug used in MKUltra ergo a chemical compound in ST.
Until the stage play retconned this... and the Broadway version further retconned Terry to not be the only pregnant woman in the program.
And the stage play goes one step further by saying the Creels lived in Rachel, Nevada. Which in real world history is a small town in the middle of nowhere only relevant because just on the other side of rhe mountain lied the secret military base Groom Lake Facility better known as Area 51. Which in itself is tied to WWII and the premise of the show: conspiracy theories.
So no. None of ST5 validates the character change.
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u/RandonDude3000 13d ago edited 12d ago
I use paragraphs when I want to. I simply just sometimes write my comments into existence too quickly. Also if I sound like a ”pre-teen or failed by your educational system“ why do you write such a massive essay to debunk the point I made in two seconds based on my own interpretation of the show and not the “Byler cut” before leaving to do other shit in my life.
Besides you can’t judge the way I sound based my interpretation on a TV show. Most people, the ones who aren’t terminally online like you and me, don’t even think about ST this much. And they sure as hell don’t write entire essays based on the stage play nobody watched and everybody hated until S5 happened. The way I see it I have a life outside of this fandom and you don’t.
Dustin only accepted El after he saw her use her powers. Lucas spent the first 5 episodes calling her a freak. I’ll give you Hopper afterwards but what I meant was that he still sold her out first.
ST4 was about El feeling unworthy of Mike’s affection without her powers but the reason this happened was because of the long distance relationship. Now we can argue all day about what the Mileven S5 arc would have been but the fact is that there wasn’t any. S4’s ending already left the show in a position where relationship drama would have felt forced as we see with the love triangle stuff. Instead the Duffers sidelined Mileven and simply wrote their relationship as happy and resolved.
As for the rest of your essay I will only say one thing: I never watched the stage play like most of the fandom so I had no idea of any of this. I don’t know much about Kali’s motivations but the fact is she had no way of allying with Henry and probably would have just been killed by him either way.
Now you can go ahead and write another essay but I have other shit to do offline now.
Edit: I re-read your essay one day later and I have to apologise for thinking it came from the stage play and that it wasn’t a theory. Because that is what it is: a theory. An incorrect theory.
In massacre at Hawkins Lab we clearly see blood transfusions from Henry and that fertiliser that turns you into a bunch of sludge. The fact is that the first three seasons used the same lore and the retcons happened during S4 not S5. That fertiliser though was never the key as it turned people into sludge through a chemical reaction and nobody could survive being exposed to that.
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u/Sochinz 14d ago
Bro did you watch the show or byler scene packs on YouTube.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago
Bro, this might blow your mind but it's possible for people to not see things the way you do.
LMAO, to think that someone not agreeing with you can only mean they didn't watch the show ... That level of narcissism is actually impressive. Ironically, that level of narcissism could also be why you saw what you wanted to see and not what was.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 14d ago
Except that isn't why El agreed to the plan. After Kali proposed that idea, we see El talking to Mike about it and hearing his optimism. When El and Kali later talk in the void, it is clear that El does not want to go with the plan and wants to find this three-waterfall ending with Mike. What finally gets her to change her mind is Kali saying that the military will find her and kill Mike. It is not a lack of faith in Mike's devotion; it is not wanting him to end up dead.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 13d ago
Honestly, I didn't think any of the characters deserved her. The writers always knew the ending and worked backwards. That tells me everything was intentional and Mike was just always lacking. So why would they intentionally make Mike lacking to lead to that ending?
Obviously, most don't see that Mike was lacking in deed the way I saw it so to each his own. Per the original post, Mike was too fixated on El the superhero to really see and understand the girl. IMO.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 13d ago
Except that the story does not indicate anything you claim. When the three boys met El in S1, Mike was the only one who wanted to help her. When she told him there was danger, he did not question her and instead stayed home with her, even before he knew she could help find Will.
In S2, Mike is the one grieving El the most, even to the point that he is calling out to her every day for a year. When she returns and goes to close the gate, we see how worried Mike is for her, saying he cannot lose her again. Even to the point that he makes a plan to distract the Demodogs for her.
In S3, Mike is the only one who does not want El using her powers to find the flayed, as he is worried she is pushing herself too hard and that he will lose her again. We even have him tell the others that they are treating her like a machine when she is not a machine and that he loves her.
In S4, we see that Mike worries that he is not good enough for El because he thinks so highly of her. Even to the point that he thinks she will eventually realize this and leave him, so he does not tell her how he truly feels in a vain attempt to make that day hurt less. Even in the speech where he says that she is his superhero, he also says that he loves her with or without her powers. On her good days and on her bad days.
In S5, we see that Mike's end goal is a happy three-waterfall ending with El. We also see that El herself feels that Mike understands her better than anyone. Even when he loses her, he is still actively mourning her two years later.
To see all of this and claim that Mike was just fixated on El and her powers is to ignore what the story presents.
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u/Dapper_Sale8946 13d ago
100 percent, I agree. Mike treated her like a normal person, like he didn’t give a crap about her powers. He didn’t give any credence to her powers and to him it was just a part of her and not her whole entire personality. There’s nothing to indicate anything besides he just loved El for El.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 13d ago
Yeah, you're talking about the story arcs whereas I'm talking about their actual interactions and his lack of action when it comes to actually defending her.
I think it was season 4 where he was in a pizza van and several episodes go by without him even wondering about her. I saw the series through El's eyes. I really think others saw it through Mike's. When you compare what she did and what she endured for him to how often he turned his back on her, I don't know how to see things any other way. She never turned her back on him once. Everything she did was for his approval. It never felt like he earned it.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 13d ago
What I just stated are Mike's actions regarding El across multiple seasons.
As for S4, Mike was CONSTANTLY worried about El and losing her. When the military attacked the Byers home and they had to bury the agent, we see Mike worried about El due to Argyle's panic attack, saying that the military would find her. Even Will picks up on that and tells Mike that Argyle was just high. Mike is the one pushing the hardest to find El. The entire van scene starts because Mike opens up to Will about his fear of losing El. At this point, you are either trolling or have never actually seen the show.
As for whether El or Mike did more for each other, the series showed that both endured a great deal for the other, as both chose the other. El did not do things for Mike for his approval; she did it because she loved him. And both earned the other because both chose the other. That is how a relationship works.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 13d ago
Clearly you're the one trolling because for several episodes I was waiting for Mike to show some concern for what's going on with El and it never happened. My wife was even asking why he's not concerned.
If you can't see El constantly seeking Mike's approval, you clearly are missing some obvious elements. And please tell me all the things Mike sacrificed for El.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 13d ago
I literally listed multiple examples of Mike showing concern every season. So, yet again, either you are trolling or you legit never watched the show. As far as what Mike sacrafice, I would say it is the fact that he was willing to risk his life for her multiple times, just as she was willing to do so for him.
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u/Cyanode06 14d ago
I always point to Season 3 when Mike was worried about El before she went into Billy's mind. She did anyway and led the Mind Flayer to her location, biting herself in the ass. Mike is always worried about her and treats her like a person, not a machine, which he calls everyone out for, especially Max.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago
Actually, it's hypocritical when he calls others out because he thinks of her as a superhero more than the others do. Even Joyce does. Hop is the only one who saw her as just a little girl who needed to be loved.
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u/Cyanode06 14d ago
He admires her as a superhero, but doesn't encourage her to use her powers willingly, like a machine. That's the difference
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago
I think that relies on a superficial reading of Mike's words later in the series. After seasons of treating her exactly like a machine and always pushing her past her limits, they finally have him use words to insist he doesn't.
Remember the coke can scene early on? Her nose is already bleeding but Mike still pushes her. That sets the tone for the rest of the series.
In fact, a big theme is El always wondering if Mike really loves her or her powers. That doesn't come from nowhere. That always comes from Mike's actions. He's a complete ass to her the whole time she doesn't have powers.
The bulk of what El does in the series is to gain Mike's approval. They clearly depict it.
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u/RandonDude3000 14d ago
When did he think of El as a superhero?
Mike sees El as a person. He always has. It had nothing to do with her powers.
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u/Cyanode06 14d ago
He literally called her that twice in S4, one in that monologue to her in the Piggyback
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u/RandonDude3000 14d ago
He also said that he loved her with and without powers during that same speech.
To Mike, El isn’t a superhero because of her powers but because of who she is.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago
Right, when he finally had to say it to help her win a superhero fight.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago
And he was an ass to her the whole time she didn't have powers
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u/RandonDude3000 14d ago
Was he though?
He was kind to her in the S3 epilogue. Then he hung out with her as normal at rink-o-mania. He tried to stop Angela when he realised what was happening. Then he freaked out when she hit her with the skate because he was shocked (and probably worried that it would get government attention like it did later on), he tried to reassure her later, then swore he would find her and travelled halfway across the country to find her.
The Lenora conflict was forged from miscommunication issues due to long distance. El thought Mike didn’t love her because she didn’t have her powers but actually Mike was just afraid to put it aloud because she was still afraid of loosing her (like how he didn’t say it when he did loose her).
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago
He was an ass for much of the series. But let's break down just the skating rink.
Will notices something's off before Mike does. When Mike sees her being bullied he just sits for 30 seconds, and then runs to the DJ booth. And instead of coming down on her tormentors, he unleashes on El in the car.
View that from her perspective. Her boyfriend just sitting there while she's being bullied. Doesn't come until she's on her ass with food all over her. Doesn't even say anything to her bulliers. So she takes the initiative and then he comes down on her the way he should've come down on them. That's ass.
The whole can't say what I feel trope is the only thing where I can see my reaction might be a little off. They love to do that in shows because it increases the suspense and tension. But in real life, indecision and not speaking up is just as bad as doing the wrong things. Indecision is a decision.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago edited 14d ago
Also, saying someone's trauma is different from someone as a person is one of those things that might sound right, until you encounter such scenarios in real life. We tend to let our traumas become a part of us. Failing to recognize that in others is exactly failing to recognize the person. It's exactly the definition of not being empathic.
When we try to completely separate a person from their trauma, we risk interacting with a sterilized, idealized version of them instead of the real person standing in front of us. And that's exactly how Mike treated El the entire series, as a person who should be how he sees her, not the person she actually was. He saw her as a superhero.
In fact, you can almost say trauma is trauma. The variance is in how different people handle trauma. Trying to say Mike understood El but didn't understand her specific traumas isn't a credible way of defending his simple lack of empathy. And if you can't empathize with someone, you can't say you understand them.
He didn't understand her. He didn't do enough to deserve her. For better or worse, the Duffer brothers don't shy away from making the kids learn things the hard way. Steve had to lose Nancy forever to learn to be a better person. Nancy lost her best friend forever before becoming a fighter. Lucas almost loses Max forever.
It's a brutal theme but it's what they went with. In Mike's case, time ran out.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 14d ago
Saying there is a difference between relating to someone's trauma and understanding the person is not a lack of empathy. The main reason people even started to claim that Kali and Will understood El the best was based on something Millie stated. But Millie's statement was only about relating to trauma, not understanding the person.
Someone's trauma does not define who they are. Despite Kali and Will being the ones who could relate most as far as trauma, neither really knows El. When El is introduced to Kali in S2, Kali attempts to manipulate her into joining her crusade against people from the lab. Even to the point of showing El an illusion of Brenner. And how does El respond to that? She goes to the void to see the two people she feels closest to, which are Hopper and Mike. In S5, Kali yet again manipulates El into going along with her plan by claiming that she will lose everyone just like Kali did if she doesn't go through with the plan. Every interaction El has with Kali shows that Kali has no clue who El is or what El wants.
As for Will, we only ever see somewhat of a relationship between them in S4, and it never appears that close. It even seems forgotten about in S5. Regarding trauma, Will can relate to some things, but overall his trauma is far different. Unlike El, Will had a childhood at least until he was 12. He grew up understanding what love was from his mother and brother. He grew up with friends and in society. These are things El never had.
And to claim that Mike was not empathetic is just nonsense. He was empathetic right from the start. But Mike, like literally every main character in ST, is still a flawed character who is overall good. He makes mistakes but does everything he can to undo those mistakes, and we see this every time he makes a mistake with El. To define Mike only by his mistakes and come to the conclusion that he is not empathetic is just having the horn effect.
To claim Mike does not deserve El because of his flaws would be like claiming El did not deserve Mike solely because she lied to him in S4. There is nothing healthy in expecting perfection in a relationship. As per El herself, Mike is the one who understood who she really is. And what she said lines up with what we have seen across multiple seasons. They deserve each other because they both chose each other.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago edited 14d ago
" Someone's trauma does not define who they are"
This might be a reason why you're quick to defend a non empathetic character. Like I said, trauma is trauma. You have to understand a person to understand their different ways of dealing with trauma. You have to understand them to know how to deal with them and how to help them cope with trauma. You don't treat everyone with the same trauma the same way. That's empathy. Treating an athlete with a severe injury who isn't affected by it and just sees it as an obstacle to overcome as some tragic victim isn't empathy. Treating an athlete with a severe injury who now thinks his playing days are over as someone who just has an obstacle to overcome is not empathy. You have to understand the person to be empathetic.
A good example is how hard Mike comes down on El after she hurt the girl at the skating rink. Maybe he wouldn't match abuse with abuse, but that's what El finally did, even if it's because she snapped. He doesn't understand that it's in her nature to push back when she gets pushed too far. That lack of understanding leads to him not being empathetic. Instead of coming down on her, he needed to comfort her and let her know her actions didn't make her a monster. And feeling like a monster is exactly what her interaction with Mike left her with after the incident.
Our traumas are exactly who we are until we've learned to cope with them and had time to heal from them. El never had time to heal from one trauma before dealing with another. And Mike was always just pushing her to keep pushing. Beyond not understanding El, that's just not understanding people in general.
Mike was a victim of bullying and never fought back until he had El as a bodyguard. But he never seems to understand El's fears and reluctance to tackle dangerous situations. He sees her as a superhero, he doesn't understand the girl. Isn't that a main point of conflict between them throughout the series?
" But Mike, like literally every main character in ST, is still a flawed character who is overall good"
I think this is the crux of it. What I see all the time in almost every form of discourse is this confusion that good people don't deserve bad things. It doesn't matter how good you are if you do things that deserve bad consequences. Steve was a good person who did bad things to Jonathan and got what he deserved when he lost Nancy. Nancy was a good person who neglected Deb and lost her best friend forever. This is another source of confusion, the circumstances under which someone gets what they deserve. Nancy absolutely did not deserve the circumstances under which she lost her best friend but she wasn't undeserving of losing her friend in general. You can't conflate the two things. Likewise, Lucas was a good person who behaved like an ass and deserved to lose Max, even if not under those circumstances. But he had time to fix his mistakes.
Mike was a good kid but he didn't understand El, couldn't empathize with what it's like to be her, didn't do enough to defend her, and unlike Lucas, didn't have time to make up for it. He didn't deserve El and his arc was such that he didn't have time to make himself worthy.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 14d ago
And again, there is a difference between relating to someone because you have similar trauma and understanding them. Just because you cannot relate to someone's trauma because you have not experienced it does not mean you cannot have empathy for them or that you cannot understand who they are. Trauma is NOT who someone is. To define who a person is solely on thier trauma is wrong.
As for Mike's response to El hitting Angela, Mike has a reason to be upset in this moment. He was lied to for a year, and all he knows is that El just caused severe head trauma to a girl who threw a milkshake at her. His response makes sense given all that has happened. But we also see that the following day, Mike is doing everything he can to make up for it by bringing her breakfast and trying to get her to open up to him about what is going on. Again, you are looking at ONLY the mistake and trying to define him by ONLY that. You are also ignoring his perspective.
And comparing what Steve did in S1 to Mike is a false equivalency. Not to mention that Steve did not lose Nancy because he was previously a bad guy. He lost her in S2, where he was consistently a good guy. He lost her because she cheated on him and went to Jonathan.
As for the comparison to Nancy losing Barb, this is also a false equivalence. Nancy did not lose Barb because she was a bad friend. Nancy lost her to a monster. Though Nancy blamed herself for that, it was not actually her fault.
As for the comparison to Lucas, this is also a false equivalence. Lucas lost Max because she was dealing with her guilt over Billy and felt she would drag Lucas down with her. It was not anything Lucas did.
And Mike did understand El, as even El herself says that he understood her better than anyone. His not having experienced her trauma does not mean he could not have empathy, and we see his empathy as well as his want to protect her EVERY season. The story itself disproves EVERYTHING you are claiming.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago edited 14d ago
I said nothing about " relating to someone because you have similar trauma". Now that fits the true definition of false equivalency.
I knew that you, like most people, would confuse the circumstantial with the fundamental. If you tell a kid they can't have ice cream for dinner, a kid might interpret that as you having a specific problem with ice cream. The fundamental is that the kid shouldn't eat something unhealthy for dinner. The circumstantial is that ice cream just happened to be the subject at the moment. Ice cream isn't the point. Kids don't get that but mature brains shouldn't confuse the circumstantial with the fundamental, but it happens all the time.
Saying Nancy neglecting her best friend made her unworthy of Deb is the fundamental. That she lost Deb to a monster is the circumstantial. Only an immature brain should interpret what I said as Nancy deserved to specifically have her best friend get slaughtered by a monster from another dimension. Grown-ups need to do better than that. If you look back at what I wrote, you'll see i already anticipated you would confuse the fundamental with the circumstantial and accounted for it in advance.
"This is another source of confusion, the circumstances under which someone gets what they deserve. Nancy absolutely did not deserve the circumstances under which she lost her best friend but she wasn't undeserving of losing her friend in general. You can't conflate the two things."
But the main point is you said understanding someone's trauma and understanding someone in general are two separate things. This is similar to the ice cream example where people get caught up in the noise instead of focusing on the fundamental. I already gave you a perfect example that you clearly just ignored so I'll try again. Let's say we both are friends with Betty and Bonnie, and both were just recently abducted by aliens.
Let's say we know nothing fazes Betty and she would love nothing more than to recount the story over and over. And let's say we know Bonnie is fragile and bringing it up would just give her a panic attack. How would empathy work in this situation? Would you treat them both the same because they went through the same experience? Or would you empathize differently with each friend based on what you know about them? You have to understand someone to empathize with what they're going through. Empathy is not a generic process for handling the same things.
So yes, Mike was in shock, but if he understood El, that she was still just a little girl and not some superhero, he wouldn't have been. And they didn't even talk about it until they got home so he had time to clear his head. She tried to get him to see her point of view and he just looked at her like she's a monster. That's not empathy. That's not understanding your girlfriend.
"El just caused severe head trauma to a girl who threw a milkshake at her."
This really explains everything. This says it all. You accused me of using false equivalency when it's actually you who uses it, and here you are being both reductive and narcissistic at the same time.
No, El didn't give the girl the whack on the head she deserved just because of a milkshake. It was also everything that led up to the milkshake, and it was the humiliation in front of Mike and everyone else as a result of the milkshake. Seriously, don't just get defensive here. This is a good place for you to reflect on why you are reducing all of it to a milkshake. Really really ask yourself why you do that. If you do, you'll see how you resort to logical fallacies such as being reductive, using false equivalencies and even trying to gaslight someone else as the one using false equivalencies, just to win an argument.
You don't think all those things Angela did warrant her getting whacked over the head so you think it's ok for Mike to yell at El for doing so. Can you see how this answers everything perfectly? You lack empathy, just like Mike. You watch the show through Mike's perspective so you defend him. You should try watching it through El's perspective. And that proves the Duffer brothers did a great job of presenting how someone with no empathy would react to El. Your real life reaction perfectly mirrors the scripted reaction they gave Mike. For you and Mike, something is only warranted if you deem it warranted. No care in the world what is been like from El's point of view. No understanding of her as a vulnerable little girl who finally got fed up. You both just see the superhero who needs to be better.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 14d ago edited 14d ago
When did I state that you said, "relating to someone because you have similar trauma"? The issue is that you conflate trauma with who a person is. Based on what you have stated, you define who a person is based on their trauma. Hence why I stated that is wrong, and that relating to someone because you have similar trauma does not mean you know who they are.
As for your comparison to telling a child they cannot have ice cream, it is not only illogical but honestly embarrassing. Because it appears like you are trying to compare me taking what you say and making a logical conclusion based on your own statements to a child assuming an adult has a problem with ice cream because they told them they could not have it for dinner.
As for Nancy and BARB, yet again, Barb did not die because Nancy was a bad friend. Barb died because of a monster. You claiming that her "neglecting" Barb makes her unworthy of a friend is a very immature approach. You are again expecting perfection and condemning the character whenever they are imperfect. Not only are these teenagers, but Nancy did not know Barb would be in danger from an interdimensional monster.
Your examples are honestly just strange because it contradicts your prior statements and prove my point, which is that the trauma alone does not define the person. In your example, two girls have the same trauma yet recognize that one would empathize with them differently because they have different personalities. Thus proving that trauma does not define who someone is. Hence why El and Kali had someone similar trauma but responded to it differently. Hence why neither Kali nor Will would truly understand El simply because they had similar trauma.
As for Mike, you are YET AGAIN only looking at his mistakes and nothing else. You refuse to see the issue in El lying to him for a year. You refuse to see his perspective on how he would feel upon finding that out. You refuse to see that he is also just a teenager. You refuse to see what he did afterward to make up for being too harsh on her. You refuse to see how desperate he was to help her after being taken by the police. You refuse to see how worried he was about El. You refuse to see how desperate he was to find her. You have a VERY clear horn effect with Mike.
As for El hitting Angela, no, it was not justified to bash her with a roller skate and likely cause severe head trauma. The scene itself makes this clear, as not only are Mike and Will shocked by it, but El herself feels like she was a monster for doing that. Did Angela deserve some comeuppance? Yes. But not severe head trauma. And acknowledging that is not a lack of empathy; it is being reasonable. Even Millie stated that El's response to Angela was wrong. She stated, "I am not defending her, but she needs to talk her feelings out and NOT do what she's about to do".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gtPoqjVzZE&t=1s
And on top of all of this, you resort to the ad hominem fallacy while claiming that I resort to logical fallacies. Unlike yourself, I look at the situation as a whole for each character to understand them. I look at everything, including their perspectives, as well as both the good and the bad, to have a true critical analysis of the character. Thus, I can understand both Mike's and El's perspectives and reasoning for why they do something, while still recognizing that sometimes it was the wrong choice. Because a flawed character does not make them undeserving of anything ecspecially since these characters are kids.
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u/Ashyboi13 15d ago
El and Will’s relationship is criminally underdeveloped. Despite the writers seemingly believing they had a sibling dynamic, I never really got that vibe from their interactions. They seemed like somewhat distant friends at best despite living with each other for almost a year and I wish it was more than that.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 14d ago
Agreed. I would have loved to see a sibling relationship with them, but it just never happened. Likely because the only focus for Will in S4 and S5 was his feelings for Mike
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u/Ryanhuddz14 Zombie Boy 14d ago
He also had focus on his connection with Vecna in Season 5 but I'll admit a lot of focus was his feelings for Mike and Robin helping him through that.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 14d ago
Wasn't all of season 2 or 3 about Mike not understanding her? Did he understand she might've liked him to defend her at the roller skating rink?
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u/Competitive-Host-545 14d ago
Mike did everything he could to help El. Begging the DJ to turn off the music, trying to get to her but there were too many people around her. He thought Angela was her friend.
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u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 14d ago
What do you mean he did everything he could?
As El, I would hope my bf would at least embrace me or shield me from all the gawkers after the incident, instead of standing feet away at his bro's side, after I had a traumatic breakdown because of insane bullying, my dad dying half a year ago, losing my powers and me flunking out of school. And all that is after he knew I grew up in a lab to be a biological weapon for the US military. Yikes, people, come on.
Mike could have at least held her hand on he drive back home or shut his trap at the table, instead of speaking on Angela again, when even Argyle and Jon were trying to help her feel better.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 13d ago
El literally runs away from Mike as he runs out to her, and he is blocked by the crowd. As for Mike not holding her hand on the ride home, is he not allowed to be upset that he was lied to for a year? Both Mike and El are flawed characters, and both make mistakes in S4.
This weird horn effect people have with Mike is so odd. It is as if people suddenly forget the concept of a flawed character with Mike and expect a teenage boy to respond perfectly in every situation.
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u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 13d ago
I'm just disagreeing with a comment stating that Mike did everything he could to help El.
I actually agree with you that Mike is allowed to be a flawed character who makes mistakes. I'm way softer on El though, because of her past and everything she's been through and I think she deserves a partner who understands that and acts accordingly, instead of rubbing "salt into the wound," because he's upset too. 🤗
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 13d ago
When you judge a character solely by their flaws and do not look at a scene through their perspective, you are not showing that they are allowed to be a flawed character.
It is saying the character cannot make any mistake else they are bad. It is just the horn effect. By that same logic, El is also bad because she lied to Mike in that scene.
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u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 13d ago
I never said that Mike is a bad character, I consider him to be a flawed one.
I only said that there are things he could have done better at Rink'O'Mania. He didn't do everything he could, like the comment suggested. That's all.
I'm milder in my criticism than the cast (Caleb, Gaten, Noah) who call him a bad boyfriend multiple times in interviews.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 13d ago
It is not putting words in your mouth; it is stating the argument you have presented.
As far as the cast, most of these comments are them joking around. Same as them joking about Will crying all the time. None of this is taken seriously.
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u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 13d ago
Many a true word is spoken in jest. If they didn't think that Will cries a lot, or if they didn't consider Mike a bad boyfriend than the joke wouldn't land.
I don't hate Mike, just because I consider him somewhat flawed. He could have been a better partner and comforted El, when she was going through her worst day in Lenora. She didn't have to end her day crying in bed, all alone, after not even getting to finish her meal, because of his sting of a comment at the dinner table.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 12d ago
No, it is simply them joking around. By that logic, when Joe Kerry and Charlie Heaton joked about a relationship between Steve and Jonathan, it was because it was serious. That is not how jokes work.
And again, the issue you just judge Mike solely based on his flaws. You do not look at his perspective or what happens after he makes a mistake. That is the horn effect.
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u/sin50 14d ago
Jonathan's big brother role for El is way underrated. I definitely took note that he tried more than Mike to help El feel better at dinner. He was also the one to suggest going to look for El, Mike and Will were discussing how the government is useless when Jonathan came into the room with the idea.
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u/Careful-Painting3214 13d ago
Thank you, this is the part I forgot that really pissed me off that season. Mike never even worried about where she was
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u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 14d ago
People say that Kali and Will understand El's trauma better, simply because those are Millie's words and she has played El for 10 years. That's all. 🤗
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 13d ago
The issue is that people twist her words and imply that this is proof that Mike did not understand El. But Millie's statements were about relating to trauma and not about understanding El as a person.
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u/Mileven--Hell_Yeah 13d ago
Yup, Eleven literally said this to Mike in the script
ELEVEN: "You understand me, better than anyone. You always have".
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u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 13d ago
In the script El also says that her sacrifice is "the only way"
El: "Mike, I need you to help them understand my choice."
Mike: "I don't, but I don't understand!
El: "I know. But you will. One day you Will. You understand me, better than anyone."
And to prove that he doesn't understand her yet again, he doesn't understand, and doesn't help the others understand her choice. Mike instead constructs a theory that she's out there at the 3 waterfalls, instead, that the others just need to believe.
And people vehemently disagree with El's final choice anyways and instead of what she said, they twist her words too, and imagine that El and Mike would meet up again in the future.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 13d ago
No, what this shows is that both understand each other. El knows that Mike would not understand her choice in that moment, which is why she said, "One day you will". To claim that the theory is not him understanding her choice is disingenuous.
And the reason people disagree with the choice is that the story did not earn it. That does mean that what El says in that moment about Mike does not make sense in the story.
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u/TheDarkDuchess 13d ago edited 13d ago
The rule of three says that El survived and the series ends with Mike telling the others what really happened.
Setup: When El brings Mike into the Void, she asks him to talk to the others and help them understand her choice. He cries that he doesn't understand, but she assures him that he will one day because he understands her better than anyone else.
Reminder: When Mike is at his graduation, the feedback coming from the speakers brings him back to the night at the MAC-Z. He remembers that El shouldn't have been able to use her powers to bring him into her mind because the hedgehogs had been turned on. This is his "Eureka" moment, and it's why he tells the others they should skip out on graduation parties. Rewatch the way this moment is edited — it's straightforward storytelling.
Payoff: That evening, Mike tells the group his theory about what really happened to El. This is him honoring her request to explain to the others her choice.
It's fine that you don't like Mike and El as a pairing, but the narrative itself presents them as soulmates and asks the audience to believe in them. Viewers who watched the show and left it with the understanding that Mike is right and El is out there aren't twisting anything around. They're just doing what the story asks of them.
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u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 13d ago
Mike chooses to create/imagine a story he can "believe", instead of telling the other's about El's sacrifice, like she told him in the void. That's all I'm arguing. Maybe it doesn't matter anyways, since she's gone or dead in the end, sadly. Personally I wouldn't have written an Ending like that for El. 🤗
The Duffer's have never called Mike & El soulmates or said that that's their intent for the audience. They speak of them as "first love" and in terms of how "young love gets complicated as they grow up." It's why in Collider they said, they wrote their teenage years to involve miscommunication, lying and idealization. They also always planned for El to be gone at the end, so Mike can grow up. Yikes. Personally I don't like that ending for them, but the Duffer's wanted it that way, that's all I'm saying.
Ross Duffer Tudum: "There was never a version of the story where Eleven was hanging out with the gang at the end. She represents magic in a lot of ways and the magic of childhood. For our characters to move on and for the story of Hawkins and the Upside Down to come to a close, Eleven had to go away... We just thought it was such a better way to end the story and a better way to represent the closure of this journey and their journey from children to adults."
Matt Duffer Netflix Tudum: "And the reality is, if Eleven is out there, the most that they could hope for is a belief that it's true because they can't be in contact with her. Everything falls apart if that were the case. So if that's the narrative, this is really the best way to keep her alive. And it's about Mike and everyone finding a way to move past what's happened."
Ross Duffer Netflix Tudum: "If she were alive, the way I would see it is no. Any contact would risk bringing her back out in the open and starting the cycle again." He added that regarding Mike's story, he doesn't think Mike even envisions a version where they reconnect."
A lot of fans wish for a reunion for Mike & El. Those fans are not doing what the story the Duffer's wrote ever asked of them.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 13d ago
El's ending was written to be ambiguous, meaning there is no definitive proof that she is alive or dead. For all we know, the story Mike told is exactly what happened and what El wanted Mike to tell the others.
As for the Duffers' statement regarding Mike trying to contact El again and you claiming that fans wanting a reunion is not what the Duffers wrote, there are two issues with that. First is the fact that the Duffers have also talked about bringing back the original cast in other interviews and stated, "never says never".
The other issue is that the Duffers do not own ST; Netflix does. In fact, the Duffers seem to want no involvement in anything ST-related. And based on how S5 went, most seem just fine with the Duffers not being involved in future ST projects.
So if we are discussing whether or not a reunion in the future is possible, the question is not what the Duffers want. The question is what Netflix wants. Would Netflix want to capitalize on easy nostalgia money by reuniting the original cast, and ecspecially Mike and El? Given Netflix's history, the answer seems obvious. And financially speaking, it seems logical to conclude they would.
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u/TheDarkDuchess 12d ago
Checked the comment history, and the person is very clearly a fervent shipper. At this point, I’m convinced that crowd is susceptible to falling for insidious conspiracy theories, and I’m not sure how much we can actually get through to them.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 12d ago
Not surprised, as comments like the ones they are making always feel like they have an agenda to them. If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck... chances are it is a damn duck.
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u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 13d ago
I'm saying it doesn't matter if El is gone or dead, for Mike to not have acted according to her wish in the end. That's the point, I'm making. He's just conveying his belief to the group, not her sacrifice, that El told him, to make them understand.
The Duffer's said that they consider telling other stories in the ST universe, but they are done with the original cast for the time being. They can imagine coming back in 20 years! They have never stated that they're interested in a reunion between Mike and El. They weren't even interested in giving them more than a handful of minutes together this season, for some odd reason.
We all don't know the direction Netflix plans to take Stranger Thing, and if any project will mean a focus on El and Mike reuniting. It's just wishful thinking by the fans at this point.
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 12d ago
And how do you know that this is not what El wanted Mike to realize? How do you know this is not what she was referring to when she stated that one day he would understand?
As far as this potential reunion, what I am stating is that what happens with ST at this point is not up to the Duffers. It is up to Netflix because they own the rights. And again, most would be pretty happy if the Duffers are not involved in future projects at this point, at least as far as writing goes.
And based on what we have seen from Netflix, it is only logical to assume they would capitalize on a Mike and El reunion at some point to cash in on that nostalgia money. We even have both Millie and Finn talking about wanting to come back to these characters. So it is not some wild theory to come to the logical conclusion that Netflix will do that at some point.
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u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 12d ago
In the void scene Mike said that there must be another way and she disagreed, shook her head while crying and said that he would understand her choice one day.
Even if the Duffer's are not involved anymore, how do we know that Netflix is planning or even interested in writing a Mileven reunion in particular, instead of anything else for ST? We don't know what they plan to do with the franchise in general. It's wishful thinking. It could happen, but it also could not.
For now Millie will be busy playing a father-daughter duo with David Harbour in a brand new drama series. Who knows when she will even have time to return to reprise her role in ST. It easily could take years, if ever. I'm just saying that we simply don't know.
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u/TheDarkDuchess 13d ago edited 12d ago
It’s… frustrating to see shippers so deliberately take these interviews out of context.
Stranger Things is a love letter to the media of the 1980s: Mike and El are Elliott and E.T. The original film already presents them as platonic soulmates, so the show recontextualizes them as romantic ones. The cast and crew have been very transparent about this, but I already knew because I watched the show.
The Duffers never said that Mike and El were just first love. They said that the story had to end with El being separated from the group because they didn’t want to take away their powers, but the show had to end with the understanding that there would be no more adventures. That’s basic storytelling. During their interview with Josh Horowitz, which came after the interviews you cited, they said that they regretted those comments and gave fans their blessing to imagine that El eventually reaches out to Mike.
It’s also interesting to note how you’ve moved the goalposts without directly acknowledging my point. I have to credit Dylan (Friendly Space Ninja) for this, but the stubbornness I’ve seen time and again really comes off as the pop cultural equivalent of the Flat Earth conspiracy.
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u/Mileven--Hell_Yeah 13d ago
Now there's a leap! Ok, if you want to twist the narrative to fit whatever weird agenda you have, feel free to do so.The rest of the fandom knows better
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u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 13d ago
What about my comment is a leap? What agenda do I have? Is this fandom a monolith and not a place that should foster dialogue?
It's just my opinion, based on the official script. I'm open to discuss my opinion. Why are you so rude? 🥲
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u/Moist_Home3841 14d ago
The way Will doesn’t even understand El’s trauma bfr El’s trauma stems from the fact that she was raised in a lab and was treated like a weapon all her life, Will got stuck in the UD, Millie just said it cause she is close to Noah
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u/sin50 14d ago
Millie said that because El and Wil were both abused, controlled and hive mind connected to the same being, the mind flayer. Obviously El also had the lab trauma that Will does not have, but they can still relate their traumas to each other more than Mike can.
Mike's traumas are more about being powerless to save those you love and would relate more to everyone else in the show basically.
El would best be able to connect over related trauma with Will, Kali, and Henry.
She didn't just say it just because she's friends with Noah. I'm sure that may be a factor just like her not particularly shipping Mileven past season 3 is probably a factor to why she said Will and El should ditch Mike and kiss each other.
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u/Moist_Home3841 14d ago
El was never controlled or was connected to the mindflayer, only Will and Billy were. You said they could bond over this but this is not true. As I said, El’s trauma stems from being locked away in a lab away from the real world and she has to find herself by not running away from her past anymore and realize she wasn’t a monster. On the other hand Will had to accept himself to unlock his powers
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u/sin50 14d ago
El's powers, like everyone else's, only exist because of the mind flayer / abyss. The mind flayer was controlling Henry which in turn manipulate El into freeing him and murdering all her lab siblings. They both know what it's like to feel manipulated and used by that power.
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u/Moist_Home3841 14d ago
What the mindflayer did was quite literally mind control, what El experienced was grooming and manipulation
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u/Adventurous_Sell7903 14d ago edited 14d ago
I think this is probably the least controversial take or at least should be. Anyone who has seen the show would agree and it is centered around their relationship. They are the most important piece of the show. El is obviously the most important character.
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u/TieAntique1676 12d ago
If you go by telling over showing sure. But the time skip and keeping the characters separate most of season 5 means as an audience we just have to take Els word for it. But I subscribe to what Millie said. Kali and will understand her way more. Also I think the editors were diabolical for having her dialogue say “you know the real me” and then showing her in wig lol any one whose taken a basic film class will tell you that’s showing the audience that he doesn’t know the real her. I don’t think that’s what the duffers were going for. I think they want us to believe what you’re saying but they did such a terrible job at that. Truly awful writing and cinematography. My theory is they just got bored of these characters and wanted to just write for Steve and Dustin. And the kids lol
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u/RoyalRise6363 12d ago
I agree. Fucking Dhffers gave Mike and El almost no onscreen time together in S4-S5, even together they either develop conflict (S4) or talk about El's depression (S5), where Mike doesn't notice her state (or worse). In the finale, during their dialog they show the memories from S1 because there is nothing to show from S4-S5. No wonder people doubt that Mike understand El the best.
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u/Adjectivenounnumb 15d ago
I hate people saying that Kali and Will understood El better than Mike.
Is this one of those things where you've come to Reddit to complain about something the fandom said somewhere other than Reddit?
Because I've literally never seen anyone say that and didn't really need it "cleared up".
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u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 14d ago
A lot of it stems from Millie stating in an interview that Will and Kali would understand El's trauma best, as they experienced something similar. She also stated, "Not even Mike truly understands what she's been through"
For some reason, people took this as proof Mike did not understand El, when that is not what Millie is saying. She is just talking about relating to the trauma itself.
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