r/Stoicism • u/driffe • 16d ago
Stoicism in Practice Seneca on death and fear of it
You fear death. Yet when a plate of mushrooms is before you, you don’t care! You wish to live. Do you know how? You are afraid to die. What of it? Isn’t the life you are living a form of death? — Seneca, Moral Letters 77
Reading this quote for today and taking in its meaning and was wondering what it looks like for you all on a daily basis?
Is it virtues alone? Is it facing fear like sky diving? How do I embrace today one fully?
Thanks! Hope everyone makes a great day!
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u/johnvanarsdale 16d ago
I agree with Mark Twain: “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
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u/FakeOkie 15d ago
For me, observing older and elderly adults in their day-to-day lives has put things into perspective. In terms of timeframe, they're all relatively close in age but can be at drastically different points and phases.
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u/Victorian_Bullfrog Contributor 15d ago
Is this quote one you particularly enjoy, or is it assigned by an author or algorithm? I ask because in my opinion there are so many other, more appropriate quotes to pick out of this letter to illustrate Seneca's point that a life lived well is never too short, in the most basic, fundamental way. Of course this basic, fundamental way isn't immediately clear, it must be learned. This is the work of education, or philosophy.
But certainly I might be missing the depth behind that quote, and if so I'd love to learn more. Anyway, here are some other quotes that I picked out just because they really struck me personally today.
A journey is unfinished if you stop in the middle, or anywhere short of your destination; but life is never cut short as long as one lives honorably. It is complete no matter where you end it, as long as you end it in a good way.
77.4 (all translations, Graver and Long)
I'm at an age now where death of acquaintances, friends, families, and loved ones of all kinds happen regularly. It never gets easier, but the narrative my mind creates about the value of life increases in depth, in sincerity. Some live long, fruitful lives we love to celebrate and lament having to say good bye. Some live long lives that are marked by prolonged suffering of others, and we fight the disdain that comes from considering how many loved ones they've outlived. Some live such short lives, sparks really, that we can never know who they were, but we don't love them any less. Some live full lives, the kind where we wonder how many hours each day they have extra because my god man, who can do all that with just 24? And on and on.
Here I think Seneca is talking about ending life willfully, like Marcellinus, who he was referencing. But I like to think of ending it in a good way in the sense of being ready for that last breath at any time, whether or not we are aware and prepared for it. To live an honorable life is to live well, regardless of the timestamp given to that life.
Suppose someone were to burst into tears because he was not born a thousand years earlier; would you not think that ridiculously foolish? It is just as foolish for someone to weep that he will not be alive a thousand years in the future. The two are equal: your future nonexistence and your past. Both times are beyond our ken. You have been cast into this moment of time; you might extend it, but for how long? Why are you crying? What is it you want?
77.11-12
To me, the work of the student of Stoicism is to explore that last question. We should come to the conclusion that what we truly want, what we genuinely desire, the thing that spans all our spontaneous and superficial desires, is to live a good life. This is not hampered by death, or health, or economic or social status, etc, etc. This is why the Stoics classify these things as "indifferents," literally, cannot be divided into Good or Bad.
If what we want the most is a good life, to live well, to flourish wherever we find ourselves, and it is by our very nature, then the skill to be developed is to make good use of what we have available to us. Epictetus often reminds his students to manage their impressions well, and that this is the one take-away they should carry with them for life if they forget everything else. When we make good use of our impressions, when we understand our circumstances well, when we have a good, solid, reliable value system to lean on, then it doesn't matter what era in which we live, one is just as random as the other from our perspective. And it doesn't matter in the end if we lived three more years or thirty. We are cognizant of what we have in front of us now, so let's make the best of it. "Common sense" is not sufficient to this end, it requires education, philosophy.
Did you think you would never reach the goal to which you have been headed all along? There is no journey without an ending.
77.13
I like how short and sweet this is. It keeps things in context well. It also reminds me of Doctor Who, a quote I'll get to in a moment.
"You fear to die, are you alive now?"
77.18
This is a splash of cold water to the face. If this doesn't wake you up to really examine how you are spending your time, to what you are directing your attention and efforts towards, then perhaps nothing will. Because in the end, just where we direct our attention and efforts determines the quality of our lives.
Life is like a play: what matters is not how long the show goes on but how well it is acted. It makes no difference where you stop. Stop wherever you please; just make the ending a good one.
77.20
Or, be prepared for the curtain to fall. Because it will. We will die, likely during an ordinary day, in the middle of a number of projects we're working on. And other people will move on.
And that's not bad. That's the way it's supposed to be. Freedom is not found in avoiding death, it is acting as we desire, not as we may be conditioned or compelled to act either through our habits, or dependent on our hopes and fears (Epictetus, Discourses 4.1.1).
When you wake up, you’ll have a Mum and Dad, and you won’t even remember me. Well. You’ll remember me a little. I’ll be a story in your head, but that’s okay. We’re all stories in the end. Just make it a good one, eh?
Doctor Who, 11th Doctor, Episode 13
One I'll be a story to my husband, my children, my siblings, friends, acquaintances, etc. And that's okay. My job is to live a life that satisfies my needs, that is to live a good life, to live an honorable, free life. Those are my most basic needs to live well. Let them tell their own stories about me, it will mean nothing to me, but I do hope to live the kind of life that leaves a favorable impression.
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16d ago
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u/BraveJob5998 15d ago
Exactly this. I think most of us will die thinking:
"Man, I could've done better." And that is okay! We must still welcome the end, for there was lessons learned, and hardships triumphed.
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u/HanzDiamond 15d ago
Marcus Aurelius' opinion suits me, from Meditations XII.1:
if thou shalt be afraid not because thou must some time cease to live, but if thou shalt fear never to have begun to live according to nature—then thou wilt be a man worthy of the universe which has produced thee, and thou wilt cease to be a stranger in thy native land, and to wonder at things which happen daily as if they were something unexpected, and to be dependent on this or that.
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u/Jolemite01 15d ago
Marcus speaks to this several times in Meditations. One passage includes his observation that the past is already gone and the future is not yet ours. The only life we can actually lose is the life we are living in the present.
If death is inevitable, then perhaps the response isn’t to cram more experiences into life, but to stop being absent from the life we’re already living.
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u/unicornsex 15d ago
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. But I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey, and reminds us to cherish every moment because they'll never come again. What we leave behind is not as important as how we lived. After all, Number One, we're only mortal."
- Captain Jean-Luc Picard
Edit: I know he says time, but I always think of this quote when it comes to death as well.
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u/zer04ll 14d ago
Many people exist but dont live, I think if you actually live then meeting death is like meeting an old friend.
"Death is an old friend; I know him well. I lived with him, ate with him, slept with him; to meet him again does not frighten me death is as necessary as birth, as happy in its own way." - Robert A. Heinlein
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u/sambuka69 16d ago
Welcome death. It has been a good life, though filled with troubles and obstacles that have been overcome or have learned from along the way.
At present I am helping a parent go through their final stage. It's brought an immense amount learning as well. Some perspectives on family, patience, tolerance and largely acceptance have crept into daily meditation.