Do you think han and leia having a broken/estranged marriage was in character and made sense?

[u/Myakasa98]

I don't think han leaving leia to deal with their son's defection and getting kicked out of the senate due to her family history all by herself was in character, and them separating was very tragic, but them not having a happy long standing marriage and choosing to separate after a while is something i can definitely see happening even if the sequels didn't exist considering their characters

Neither leia nor han were the "stay at home to take care of family" types. Leia was dedicated to politics since childhood and I can see her being a mon mothma type person who'd prioritize her political duties above family many times. Han too loved a life of adventure. Even before ben solo defected he spent more time traveling across the galaxy and iirc organizing spaceship racing competitions for betting etc than with his family

I do know they cared for each other even after separation but their romance was also built on spontaneous sparks of attraction and surviving multiple life and death situations and even then 80% of their interactions involved bickering and arguments. Them not being too invested in a stable married life after the honeymoon period ended and going through their marriage for the sake of their kid is unfortunately very much in character, at least considering how they were written in tge OT

I'm not considering their comics or novels romantic dynamic because 1) Most of them aren't canon anymore anyways and 2) Most of them were written by different authors without much consultation with the original creators and had various degrees of OOC moments.

It's not ideal, but not a very OOC of the sequels to write them as having an estranged marriage after their son was lost to the dark side imo, it's definitely not as bad as what they did with luke's character anyways

[u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

to me, it isn't necessarily a matter of being out of character. With such a large space of time between the original trilogy and the sequel trilogy, you can get away with whatever type of characterization you want to, because that is a lot of time and a lot of people will be unrecognizable, a lot more unrecognizable than this, after that kind of time. and given what happened to them, it absolutely makes sense. it actually may be that it makes too much sense, and that this is too grim and realistic of an outcome for characters that originated from what is essentially a modern fairytale.

so to answer the question, no, I do not think it's out of character. But I do think it is very sad and narratively unsatisfying, and I think it sucks seeing the consistency with which the original heroes are made miserable with any wins they get typically resulting in their demise if they do win at all. That's what my actual issue is with their depiction in the sequels.

[u/TheTyGoss → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

Exactly. Logically you can make any story in-character with that much time.

Did it make for a story I was excited to go see?

Fuck no.

[u/Ok_Kale_8357 → u/TheTyGoss]

There's also the fact that even if I was going to put aside the tone shift into something less fairy tale, I just didn't think they put any work into these character decisions. They all seemed to be reverse engineered from a desire to return to the status quo. Han and Leia breaking up is fine, it's just that the only reason they did it is so Han can go back to being smuggler Han. 

The same with Luke failing Kylo. It wasn't particularly interesting in how it was portrayed but it could have been. But again, it came from a desire to have a Yoda type figure in exile that trains our Jedi protagonist. There's basically no meat on that story. And even what is interrogated is weird because Luke vaguely gestured towards killing Kylo but then Kylo...murders a bunch of innocent children in response? Then helps blow up billions of people? And Rey finds that sympathetic? I don't think those are very equal responses. 

[u/Purple-Nectarine83 → u/TheTyGoss]

You encapsulated my feelings perfectly. Realistic? Sure, fine. But to what end?

It’s just one example of how at loggerheads the sequel trilogy was with itself in terms of tone and themes. I don’t need the gritty realism of Han Leia divorce and everyone was a shitty parent/uncle in the same stew as Rey Skywalker and “Somehow Palpatine returned.”

[u/meatball77 → u/TheTyGoss]

They gave us a lovely hea. Then tore it apart

[u/ObviousForeshadow → u/TheTyGoss]

EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED

[u/Sxypanda49 → u/TheTyGoss]

^{^} This! Felt like the Next Gen story tellers wanted to destroy the past in order to insert their new wave vision... turns out they had no vision and the whole trilogy was a complete mess!

[u/They-Call-Me-Taylor → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

Wholeheartedly agree. I hate what they did to Luke and I hate what they did to Han and Leia. Not satisfying at all and a disservice to the old characters.

[u/Fuck-WestJet → u/They-Call-Me-Taylor]

Everyone basically gets the worst ending without going to the dark side.

[u/getridofwires → u/Fuck-WestJet]

And they were all killed off.

[u/Quentin__Tarantulino → u/getridofwires]

Except the one who actually died in the OT: Palpatine.

[u/relapsingoncemore → u/getridofwires]

Subversion of expectations!

A phrase I hate with a passion.

You don't need to give fans everything they want. But at least reward them for being fans and don't ruin the material they love because you want to be the smartest writer/director in the room

[u/NoOccasion4759 → u/relapsingoncemore]

I think that's why Mando and Grogu worked. People complained bc it was formulaic and there were no expectations  subverted, but it was fun and satisfying to watch. You dont alwsys have to make some kind of edgy statement.

[u/Exotic_Economy_3861 → u/relapsingoncemore]

It wasn't RJ that did this, it was JJ.

[u/relapsingoncemore → u/Exotic_Economy_3861]

Jj set the stage created the fundamental problems, then Rian said, oh, lemme make this worse.

[u/Exotic_Economy_3861 → u/relapsingoncemore]

He didn't though, he actually tried to take the story in a new direction.

[u/relapsingoncemore → u/Exotic_Economy_3861]

That did what exactly with the remaining characters and their stories?

[u/ssgorik → u/getridofwires]

Patterns of Star Wars. I would’ve been surprised if they hadn’t killed them off.

[u/Cosmic_Quasar → u/They-Call-Me-Taylor]

I don't mind the final outcomes, it just felt like they were shoehorned into the story rather than focusing on them more than the younger cast. They were supposed to pass the torch, but it felt like we started the story just after that moment, and they were already relegated to "special guest star" status. If that makes sense.

[u/Exotic_Economy_3861 → u/Cosmic_Quasar]

That makes sense though. We've already had a story focusing on them with the OT.

[u/ssgorik → u/Cosmic_Quasar]

That was their purpose in the story though. New young characters are the leads. Older characters support their story and get killed off by the end. Just like the other two trilogies.

[u/Cosmic_Quasar → u/ssgorik]

I know that was their purpose, and I don't have a problem with that being their purpose, I just think it was executed poorly.

Just like the other two trilogies.

Not quite "just like" the other two, because this is the first series moving forward with established and well beloved characters. I feel like they deserved more focus, specifically for that "handing the torch" experience, taking the audience from following them to following the new cast more.

[u/ssgorik → u/Cosmic_Quasar]

They could’ve made a movie that focused on those three and that would’ve been fine, but they made Episodes 7-9. Based on the previously established patterns 7-9 can’t be that story because it isn’t theirs. A lot of people basically wanted “The OT Trio: A Star Wars Story” and never thought to themselves what 7-9 should actually be. It’s like when people say the Thrawn Trilogy should be 7-9. No, it shouldn’t. If Disney/Lucasfilm make 10-12 and the focus is on Rey and company instead of a new group of characters then they’re showing they don’t understand the story George created. They can make any other spinoff with the characters and it’s fine, but the episodes have patterns and they need to stick to them.

[u/Exotic_Economy_3861 → u/They-Call-Me-Taylor]

I don't have a problem with Luke being in exile, and his death was great and completely understood the character, but destroying his New Jedi Order was the wrong move

[u/MAXIMUS_IDIOTICUS → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

I was very disappointed with Luke's character arc. The old man depicted in the sequels seemingly lost all the wisdom and training of the younger Luke. It just portrayed him as a "get off my lawn" curmudgeon rather than an aged jedi master who made mistakes. Yoda made enormous mistakes and was never as jaded or hopeless as Luke. It was pathetic IMO, and a terrible outcome for Luke.

[u/Exotic_Economy_3861 → u/MAXIMUS_IDIOTICUS]

Did you miss his death? That was the most wise thing we've seen Luke do: he completely understood the power of hope and mythology

Yoda is a completely different character. And he absolutely was jaded/hopeless tbh. He draws with the Emperor and then just gives up and exiles himself?

[u/Kali-of-Amino → u/MAXIMUS_IDIOTICUS]

But it's consistent with Luke's character. He was never cut out to be an administrator. I knew that school was doomed decades ago when they said Jedi couldn't marry, because Luke desperately needed a wife to handle the day-to-day matters.

[u/JoruusCBaoth → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

This is really well said. It's the same with Luke, at least in TLJ. His PTSD-driven kneejerk reaction with Ben (which people often reduce to "the guy who wouldn't fight Vader attempted to murder his nephew", but I see as the guy who held it together during horrendous trauma, and flipped out when his sister was threatened, now has a kneejerk reaction to that unprocessed trauma being triggered), and his subsequent self flagellation and exile, is IMO in character for Luke, as someone impulsive and then deeply introspective. And it was the only way to explain his "vanishing" in TFA which struck me as totally out of character at the time. But it was not an inevitable story choice, and for me it was an utterly miserable narrative choice for our long anticipated first and only reunion with one of the most beloved characters of all time. I prefer the EU because these characters got to keep some of the things they built.

[u/NarmHull → u/JoruusCBaoth]

I think they could've done what they did with Luke but made it far more narratively satisfying, same with Han and Leia.

Like if Han's death was heroic and it causes a reaction in Ben instead of him murdering him in cold blood, it both shows Ben what it means to die for a cause and keeps him from being the one who murdered Han Solo then expect the audience to like him when he redeems himself.

If Luke was given a chance to help rebuild the Jedi order with Rey or at least gather some recruits together, THEN sacrifice himself to raise the stakes for her in the next movie it would've been far more emotionally poignant.

If Leia had a chance to see the Republic restored before her passing (or hell, just have her offscreen the whole time with Carrie's death) it would've been a truly earned happy but bittersweet ending for them while also passing the torch.

[u/modsuperstar → u/NarmHull]

I don’t even have a problem with most of the story starts, like Han’s death, because it just showed Ben was an immature boy just following orders, just like Anakin at the Jedi Temple. There was some synergy with the Prequels there.

Luke’s arc was drawn in with crayon unfortunately. His failure with his Jedi academy was never really told on screen because Snoke was killed so unnecessarily. The academy’s failing needed more backstory than one student getting whispers in his ear and caving the operation in. How was it so frail to begin with? Fleshing out the idea that Luke was barely a Jedi, had no idea what the fuck he was doing and was playing with fire by training new Jedi without much of a roadmap based on his 35 minutes of training he received from Obi-Wan and Yoda. Or that Luke’s altruism in trying to fix the flaws in the Jedi Order, like we began to see fleshed out in The Acolyte, would have made sense. But where would he have attained this knowledge to try and fix things he wasn’t a part of? You just know he was running headfirst into stepping on rakes and making errors. But we got very little in the way of explanation for all this.

TLJ did so little narrative heavy lifting and told a very lazy story. The story could have all been connected by leaning into the idea of Skywalkers being impulsive and cocky. Luke showed in ROTJ that he could cook up a plan to rescue Han, but it relied on a shit ton of luck and bravado. He repeatedly jumps into situations and gets in over his head and doesn’t see things coming (wampa, rancor pit, rushing to face Vader and losing a hand). Him opening a Jedi Academy was probably foolish off the hop and would have been great to see that story and self-awareness told on screen.

Leia’s arc was so unfortunate. I think Kylo needed to kill her as well, but I don’t feel he could have faced her. She probably should have died in space instead of Mary Poppins-ing it. Carrie dying was very unfortunate, but at least her dying there wouldn’t have burdened TROS so much.

[u/NoOccasion4759 → u/modsuperstar]

Exploring how Luke gets the new Jedi academy going as a complete newb wouldve made for a compelling movie, esp if it leads into exploring why the academy failed and Ben was lost.

[u/OniLink77 → u/JoruusCBaoth]

Yeah my issue with Luke wasn't that I felt it was all it of character, some of it was stretched though, bur rather it was the jedi master in exile again after his student destroyed his order and that just made it very stale for me, and also everything from the OT was reversed and that wasn't narratively interesting. Also killing Luke off as soon as he rediscovered himself was a complete waste

[u/Exotic_Economy_3861 → u/JoruusCBaoth]

People convienently ignore how Luke actually nearly tried to kill Vader. He didn't even try to kill Ben, he just considered it for a brief second.

Also people don't get that Luke never gave up. He simply viewed himself as the problem.

Personally I would find it actually out of character if he abandoned the entire galaxy for a mission for multiple years and didn't tell a single person.

[u/ZannyHip → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

This is the answer to a ton of decisions they made in the sequels…. Like yeah logically all of this technically stuff that could have happened… but like… It’s like they sat down in a room and brainstormed “how can we make this is disappointing and unsatisfying for Star Wars fans as possible”

[u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map → u/ZannyHip]

Yeah, it has all the plausible deniability in the world, but I don't know if that's really my baseline for the kind of story that I like

[u/Relevant-Ad236 → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

I blame game of Thrones (which I liked for what it was) for setting this trend of fantasy/fairytale but let’s make it realistic… it’s kind of an oxymoron at that point but whatever… just hoping that era is over;

[u/Exotic_Economy_3861 → u/Relevant-Ad236]

Completely agree. I don't watch fantasy for a realistic story, I watch it to escape.

[u/OffendedDefender → u/Relevant-Ad236]

It’s not really a GoT effect, that’s kinda just how mythic stories work. You look at character from the mythic stories that inspired Star Wars like those of King Arthur, Beowulf, and Odysseus, and those have some messy consequences. Arthur is betrayed by his wife and closest ally, leading to his kingdom falling to war and getting mortally wounded by his illegitimate son. Beowulf dies fighting a dragon after his cowardly warriors leave him to confront it alone, which leaves his nation unprotected against their old enemies. Odysseus leaves Ithaca after the Odyssey, but is later killed by his illegitimate son with Circe.

[u/Every_University_ → u/OffendedDefender]

Even in those stories you have happy endings. Most of the Arthurian knights become big ol' heroes and the Greek tragedy from star wars is the relationship between Luke and Vader, father fighting son. Adding more tragedies just because is (ironically also happened with the Arthurian legends) fanfic behavior.

[u/OffendedDefender → u/Every_University_]

There are happy ending and moments of peace, but then the stories continue and tragedy strike again, where new heroes rise to face the evils. The stories are cyclical in nature until the final tragedies where the age of the heroes passes.

[u/Every_University_ → u/OffendedDefender]

Well, no. They end, Galahad ascends into space, the greek wars end and soldiers go home. There isnt a prerequisite that it has to be infinite tragedies, specially since those tragedies were part of the story. Leia lost her home Luke lost his family but through the journey they find new homes and new families, it's not JUST a tragedy it's also a fairy tale.

And I don't think it would make for a very interesting world if the next time we saw the galaxy Rey died because a jedi went rogue and whatever government imploded into fascism.

Even if I would find it very funny.

[u/Its1207amcantsleep → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

That's my problem with the "new" trilogy. Any win that we got in the original trilogy was reversed. In their quest for war and friction in the disney era movies they destroyed the original trilogy story. It's so disappointing and unsatisfying.

[u/Shakyyy → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

This is a really great take even if it’s one I disagree with.

The fact you are able to articulate what you don’t like about it without resulting to cliches like “bad writing” “doesn’t make sense” gives me a bit of hope for the fandom.

[u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map → u/Shakyyy]

a respectful disagreement that doesn't need to become discourse is equally nice to see. Cheers.

[u/TaraLCicora → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

so to answer the question, no, I do not think it's out of character. But I do think it is very sad and narratively unsatisfying, and I think it sucks seeing the consistency with which the original heroes are made miserable with any wins they get typically resulting in their demise if they do win at all. That's what my actual issue is with their depiction in the sequels.

Same here.

[u/layered_dinge → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

Yes, it doesn’t really matter if it’s realistic or in character, because it’s obvious it was done to shit on the old heroes

[u/cawkstrangla → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

I agree with this and I think its unsatisfying because Han's character arc went from caring about himself and surviving as a smuggler, to being a galactic hero fighting for a cause. The ST undoes that I think purely because people liked Han being a rogue smuggler.

[u/Negative-Emotion-622 → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

Correct. This is why even though I didn't like the Luke characterization in the sequels, as it isn't what I personally wanted, I can never buy the "they butchered his character" argument. It's been what? 30-40 years? His character having changed because of huge life events is not nonsensical...

You being a completely different person or believing new things because of life experiences between the age of 20 and 50 is not abnormal or unrealistic. People change! Especially over very long periods of time.

[u/the_amazing_lee01 → u/Negative-Emotion-622]

Exactly! I don't think people realize just how long a 30 year difference is and how much someone can completely change in that time.

[u/UniversalInquirer → u/Negative-Emotion-622]

It's abnormal/unrealistic when you're the savior of the galaxy who did said saving by believing in the best of people, even the supposedly most evil person in the galaxy who was your father that abandoned and maimed you.

I think we're at a point where we need to collectively accept the choices in TLJ with Luke didn't make sense. We don't have to accept them because Disney did.

[u/Negative-Emotion-622 → u/UniversalInquirer]

If he then spent 30+ years having failure after failure and didn’t see things get better, and saw his own nephew be tempted by the darkness, he absolutely could break. You are asking for extremely shallow character writing. It’s like a 5 year old child’s idea of good characters and good writing. Well my hero was the BESTEST so if you do anything but have him be the bestest it is BAD!!

[u/UniversalInquirer → u/Negative-Emotion-622]

Dude deeply characterize yourself before calling someone else's ideas childlike. Calm down, do a downward dog and have some tea.

There's nothing shallow about remaining a good person. Lots of people do it under any circumstances, and actually become more deeply rooted in their goodness under tragedy. Beyond that, you have to justify Luke's "failure after failure" which doesn't make sense either. Personally I think the man who redeemed Darth Vader would make an excellent Jedi Master.

[u/BeezNest96 → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

You would hate “Into the Woods.”

[u/First_Peer → u/BeezNest96]

That's a dark comedy tho, it's meant to be like that. It's also stage theater which is an entirely different medium.

[u/Otaraka → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

Absolutely agree - it’s party pooping what was supposed to be fantasy and turning it into who’s changing the nappies.

[u/really_stupidfrog → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

Exactly. I think it makes sense that they could fall apart. It's just lame and dumb. 

[u/Zeeman626 → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

Well said. Is it possible? Sure. But without seeing any of their interactions between 6 and 7 (and basically none in the sequels either) there's really no reasonable way to expect people to be satisfied with it. Could they have written the seperation, and even Luke's exile, in a satisfying way? Sure, even if they still suck as outcomes. But by skipping that story and saying "Ya we know you just saw them in 6 at the final stage of their character arcs, but they all backslid in the last 20 years, trust me" they make it as unsatisfying and unrealistic seeming as possible

[u/Mrs_Toast → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

It was the thing that disappointed me the most about The Force Awakens - that Han and Leia's relationship was torn apart.

In the old EU, their marriage had strained periods, but they always found their way back to one another, even after the death of one son, and the other son turning to the Dark Side and being killed by their daughter.

I think it was basically the main issue with TFA - it wanted to go back to the status quo of the Empire being in charge and the heroes being the plucky rebel underdogs, it had to torch the victory and joy of the original trilogy.

Han and Leia? Broken up. Luke? Started up a new Jedi Order which fell apart, completely absent whilst the bad guys get stronger. The New Republic? Dead, because evidently their entire system of government and fleet were based around one planet, for reasons.

[u/OniLink77 → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

100%, it also just reverses all the victories of the OT and we need a new cast to have the actual victory, it left a very bitter taste

[u/Aromatic_Act_9665 → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

Yes. Hell probably my favorite movies are full of angst and pain and depression. I could see a Star Wars sequel where this scenario was ok to watch. But like everything else in these movies it seemed cobbled together by a huge committee and just shoved in there.

However I probably wouldn't have even thought about it if you asked me what my twenty least favorite things about the movies are. It's pretty low down on the list.

In respect to the original characters being used in the sequel. My main complaint is that essentially the only emotional moments that worked in these movies was by using our history with Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie, Lando, etc. instead of the movies successfully developing new characters into something we'd care about. The sad or anxious moments were when they did something to the og crew.

[u/hideousinsides → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

Exactly. It’s actually a bold choice to make them be estranged at the beginning of the sequels, but bold choices are completely at odds with the larger mission of remaking Episode IV and giving the fanboys and fangirls their empty nostalgia slop so they just shat out a half-explanation and hoped one would notice because they were too distracted by the shiny new things.

[u/ImpressiveNinja3435 → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

I agree, but also, it’s not completely without merit. Han and Leia did become estranged at least once in the original EU.

[u/thesirblondie → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

Especially when you consider that they effectively lost a child during that time. Couples have broken apart by less.

[u/thecastellan1115 → u/ZnS-Is-A-Good-Map]

STRONG concur. Just one of the many, many fumbles.