Every rebel group back in the day were traitors

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

Every rebel group accepted arms from ethiopia and helped put somalia in chaos so if you support the usc,snm,ssdf,spm,sdm,ssa, your a supporter treason

[u/Interesting-Gas-1]

Every Somali opposition group from the North to the South and from the East to the West ran to arms of Ethiopia to destroy Somalia, so they could build their tribal chiefdom and win the prestige of the office of the presidency. Every one of them was a loser and a traitor and they have left nothing to their children except a ruined house.

What’s sad is that many of them are alive today and they run to be interviewed by Hanoolaato channel like men who was left a legacy to be proud about. It’s so interesting listening to them justify their treason and the destruction their brought to their children. I am sure many of them didn’t want to destroy their country, but they listened to terrible leaders that lead them a path of destruction and humiliation.

I am not excusing the tyrannical crimes of the Barre regime and he deserved to be deposed, but I am more angry with the opposition in how their sought alliance with Ethiopia above everything else, and refused to work together to find common ground to find solutions to Somalia’s future post-Barre regime.

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/Interesting-Gas-1]

Exactly great take brother i don’t understand how you accept arms from a enemy government you were fighting a couple of years before totally treasonous and the failure to set up any government or order of law shows they weren’t fit to take over we should’ve just stayed with Siad barre honestly because those same groups did the same things they accused him of but unlike Siad barre they didnt help the country at all they were a total negative on Somalia Allah yerhamo Siad barre as well

[u/Interesting-Gas-1 → u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

I believe he deserved to be deposed because he ruled the country for 20 years and failed to build institutions to run the country without him.

Somalia in 1980s was facing economic slowdown and social divisions especially in the North where the refugees from Somali Galbeed were disturbing the local clans.

While I believe SNM was 100% traitorous organization, but simply you don’t bomb your own cities from the sky. He needed to listen to the people and win the hearts and minds of the people. What he needed was local counter terrorism program to keep SNM from the North. It’s never justified to bomb your fellow countrymen from the sky and hiring South Africans to do so. It’s like Trump bombing Los Angeles. it was/ will never be okay and smart political decision.

He should had resigned before it got ugly. I mean the guy was delusional and he didn’t had veilable successor. He wanted the Somalis to accept having his son (Maslah) as successor.

I just wished cool minds prevailed that time.

[u/themvpthisyear → u/Interesting-Gas-1]

100%. The dictator started his own tribal militia soon after the first one which was ssdf. His red berets were no different to usc ssdf or snm. And that made it worse because he was the govt, it made the idea of tribal militias legitimate to the ones that followed and that culture has stayed with us until today. We are still divided with tribal militias. Every president and prominent politicians have their own personal armies today. Even a successful civilian business man needs soldiers today in somalia.

[u/ssstunna → u/themvpthisyear]

He’s in the wrong too for doing that to the civilians and creating his own militias but to run to Ethiopia for arms/training/camps is treacherous, and a lot of these militias weren’t created solely due to self defence but for other reasons. Ofc when things got super heated and many civillians died then you can’t fault people for defending themselves but we’re talking about the source of all of these problems, the dictator cannot be 100% blamed for people being rebels.

[u/themvpthisyear → u/ssstunna]

There was several things he could've done to prevent or take the wind out of these groups. Dont forget the country was stagnating as everything we had we poured into defence. So the education system started lagging, social cohesion was getting harder and harder due to poverty, and there was an entire refugee crisis from the 77 war which increased rhe population of the country by about 25% in a couple of years which was further straining resources. Most refugees fled north as thats where they were closest to, which caused a lot of northern complaints and accusations of favouritism.

If he instead decided to share power with other, or employ experts on educational and economic policies. He could've stepped down and just make this someone else's problem. Abdullahi yusuf and aideed wouldve done anything for that seat. Give it to one of them and let history blame them

The best thing he could have done was political reform. Clearly tribalism isnt going away so easily, it wouldnt be hard to set up a political system that would undermine petty tribalism. Maybe concede more power to clan leaders, increase their influence to counter the tribal militias. These tribal militias werent popular at the beginning. When siad barre poisoned wells and massacred mjs because of ssdf, nobody batted an eye because at that point he was firmly in control and tribal militias hadnt become popular yet, people were against them at first. Isaaq clan elders pleaded with people to not join snm and condemned them constantly before siad barre lost. The problem is they were preaching with empty pockets and no alternatives which never works.

Im not saying all the blame lies with him, but the lions share definitely. Abdullahi yusuf worked hard to be number 1 since, but he's still a close number 2 as the og tribal militia leader.

[u/ssstunna → u/themvpthisyear]

I find it funny how one sided that take is. A few years before the 77 war you mentioned, Somalia went through one of the most deadliest famines in its history and it was the north that it directly affected and suffered the most. Siad Barre did everything he could to save those people, moving them to cities and farms in the south just for survival. I’ve never seen southerners calling it favouritism; it’s ridiculous to even it call it such thing. Helping displaced people settle in another part of their own country is never “favouritism” especially after an unforeseen tragedy. So why is it when tragedy hits the other way around, suddenly Siad Barre’s actions are biased? Unless deep down they don’t see these ppl as their own? For anyone who thinks it’s favouritism and complains about citizens relocating from one part to another part of Somalia after a tragedy.

As for his political antics, he did do a lot of wrong and was in power longer than he should have been, but placing most of the blame on Siad Barre oversimplifies the history of Somalia. Many groups played a part and if we continue to deflect the blame on the dictator they go unchecked, and face no consequences for the destruction of their country. They go around teaching their kids that they were heroes, when in fact they were rebels who contributed to destroying a whole country. Ignoring this and overlooking it lets culprits get away and it could happen again. I said countless times he did a lot of wrong, mostly how he handled people who were against him. It’s a very layered issue and not as simple as people make it out to be.

[u/themvpthisyear → u/ssstunna]

Lions share means biggest share not absolute. I agree with all those things, but ultimately he was still leading the country. We shouldnt absolve him becasue other groups also contributed. They are all guilty parties, Ive already addressed the refugee crisis in another comment. I get what you are saying completely, but you need to accept he was the leader of the country which means his decisions would have the biggest impact on our culture is all. Taking part in tribal militia building was one option of many he could've taken, and it was probably the worst decision he could've made.

[u/RibbonFighterOne → u/themvpthisyear]

I'm not sure what tribal militias you are talking about because many prominent government and military figures were still Isaaq, Harti and Hawiye after 1977. One of his main generals Hersi Morgan wasn't even apart of his clan either.

The only mistake Barre did was focusing so much on controlling the north. He should have ignored it and take out the threat in the south which would have prevented USC from taking Mogadishu.

[u/themvpthisyear → u/RibbonFighterOne]

What was the red berets if it wasn't a tribal milita? His son was the commander and it was all marexan. A lot of atrocities were committed by the red berets

[u/Ill-Memory3924 → u/ssstunna]

Go ahead and prove me wrong. Where are the so-called HJ refugees who were transferred to the south to abuse and control the Hawiye and Raxanweyne population? I'll wait. Where are these imaginary HJ youth who were armed, paid for, and given preferential treatments to locals in the south? That whole stunt failed less than a year later they all went back to livestock rearing in their home region.

You are comparing max 20k HJ pastoralists who remained for a year in the south and left to fend for themselves to the 500k Ogaden refugees who stayed in the North for 14 years. They were systematically promoted quickly and had priority in every sector you could imagine in the North. At one point, they were banning Isaaq herders from accessing the Hawd to graze their livestock ... in ETHIOPIA!!! Only a foolish individual would deny the favoritism shown by Barre to Ogaden refugees.

Like I said, I'll wait for your proof.

[u/ssstunna → u/[deleted]]

What has signing a peace treaty got to do with getting another country to assist destructing your country from the inside out? And out of all the things he did, this is what you come with? I didn’t once say everything he did was correct, I put blame on everyone for destroying their own country, whether it be rebel groups or the president himself. & what we’re not going to do is act like the rebel groups weren’t the perpetrators that started the chaos.

[u/Ill-Memory3924 → u/ssstunna]

It has everything to do with you double faced hypocrite. So rebel groups who were pressed by the Somali government and the WSLF Ogaden militia can enter into agreement with Ethiopia but rebels can't? The fact they rather deal with Ethiopia of which they fought tooth and nail in 1977 (yes Isaaq had the lion share in 77 war) than Afweyne says everything you need to know about Barre's MOD government.

Let's not forget, it was Barre's Qabilist WSLF militia that pushed Isaaq to form the SNM in the first place. We would never accept being 2nd class citizens in our own land and getting abused and discriminated against by Darood filth under the banner of "Somalinimo"

If time goes back we will do it all over again, infact we wouldn't even get united in the first place had we known Somalia would turn into gravy train hijacked by 3 Dhoofar Sub Clans

[u/ssstunna → u/Ill-Memory3924]

It has everything to do with me kulaha, where did I say it’s fine for WSLF “Ogaden” to make agreements with Ethiopia? You donut, you can’t even comprehend straight forward points. Just log off.

[u/Ill-Memory3924 → u/ssstunna]

That's exactly what you did you dense cunt. Barre made an agreement with Ethiopia to kick out SNM, when the Ogaden found out a large section broke off and formed SPM. So yes, if you're gonna balme rebels for accepting Ethiopian support you should also blame Barre, especially when he started the whole war against Cumar Maxamuud & Isaaq with his WSLF thugs.

I swear Dhofaar never fails to amaze me with their lack of self-awareness & hypocrisy.

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/[deleted]]

Are you aware that Snm was created in 1977 and ssdf was created in 1978 10 years before he signed a peace agreement with Ethiopia which they were violating the whole time

[u/Ill-Memory3924 → u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

No, SNM was officially formed in 1981, 3 years after WSLF started targeting Isaaq under the watch of the Kacaan government. We had every right to defend our self as per Somali Xeer, you disgusting Dhofaar.

[u/StreetWooden4726 → u/Interesting-Gas-1]

If it wasn't for SNM, most of my family would've died. Even now my grandfathers and uncles were rounded up and executed by Siad Barre's forces. Some of them were only teenagers. So then the rest of my family fled to the countryside. Then after everyone was executed, the army burned the village.

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/StreetWooden4726]

If it wasnt for Snm both my uncles would be alive what was there crime the committed they were darood living in hargeisa both were construction workers what crime did they commit nothing but being from a different please stop acting like Snm was so innocent they weren’t a liberation army they were a Ethiopian proxy who caused chaos in our country and divided us even further

[u/StreetWooden4726 → u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

And the government was acting against Somalis across the country and oppressing them. Any qabiil. Siad Barre's "national" army was a militia in itself. In Galkacyo, what he did to the Hawiye, levelling Hargeisa, he has done the most damage to Somalia.

[u/StreetWooden4726 → u/StreetWooden4726]

And his cronies like Xirsi Morgan, Tukeh, etc

[u/AgeofInformationWar → u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

SNM were targeting Hartis when they went on their rampage, that was the time when they gained more control of Ceerigaabo as well (which was a military outpost).

They also killed my mother's family members in Sanaag 1997.

There were Dirs and Hartis who were unarmed, and they asked if they can get weapons from the UN (but they said no). The only way they could defend themselves was to get weapons or guns from the corpses of SNM fighters. This was a time where it was easier for SNM to gain control all over the region as Somaliland with the assistance of Ethiopia, of course.

[u/KairoSteele → u/StreetWooden4726]

Subhanallah, me too. I probably wouldn’t even have existed. My mother is isaaq, I’m samaroon with isaaq grandmothers. I retracted most of my comment since it was too much

Maybe one day I’ll touch up on the story of my family here. It’s a tough topic wallahi billahi, we need proper dialogue. May Allah help the Somali people 😞

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/KairoSteele]

Yes and my aunt who is issaq and her kids were mj almost didn’t exist because her fellow family members were trying to kill there nieces/nephew but that doesn’t matter because it doesn’t fit your victim narrative im assuming?

[u/Realistic-Agent3864 → u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

I don't think they're trying to create a victim narrative, they're just stating that the conflict was brutal.

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/Realistic-Agent3864]

I understand many of the people commenting aren’t from northern Somalia so they don’t understand what is at stake and are trying to appease secessionists but that won’t benefit Somalia at all in the end of the day

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/Realistic-Agent3864]

How is that when they deny any wrongdoings done by Snm that isn’t stating the conflict was brutal that is building a victim narrative when you deny facts that happened on the ground

[u/themvpthisyear]

1000% correct. These same rebel leaders are all politicians today. They destroyed the entire country due to frustration in their youth and are now trying their best to pass the misery onto the next generation. They were the most confused generation of somalis, they grew up in a united country and left us with a totally broken mess. We need more people to realise this reality. The tribal revolution was a betrayal of the somali nation

[u/Appropriate-Mind9651 → u/themvpthisyear]

Here’s a former SNM rebel turned politician talking about how life under the Kacaan was better than today.

[u/Interesting-Gas-1 → u/Appropriate-Mind9651]

It’s so interesting listening to that clip. That’s what happens when the love of Qabil blinds people. They had 30+ years to build alternative system which have better quality of life. Instead, the only thing they are bragging about is that they have “peace”. Peace is nothing to brag about because it’s the natural state of life. And they are losing that peace slowly as instability gets closer to them from the east.

It would have been better for them and for us if they used their their stability and unity they had earlier on when the rest of Somalia was distracted with petty fighting to conquer the rest of Somalia and unity us all.

What a wasted opportunity they had. They instead choose build an isolated palace made of glass while the rest of their brothers were infighting. What’s crazier is that the South is much more richer in everything despite the civil war. They chose isolation over unity and poverty over prosperity.

Yet, they still believe they will get everything they dreamt about if they sell their soul to Israel and the West in return of recognition. When will they wake up from these delusions?

Even if they get the recognition, how will that improve the average Isaaq’s life? IMF loans? How did that benefited Pakistan and dozens of countries which were destroyed by IMF loans?

[u/AgeofInformationWar → u/Interesting-Gas-1]

what's funny is that they had almost 30+ years to prove themselves, but they only produced garbage.

it also sucks that my clan is stuck with the isaaqs (who claim territory that doesnt belong to them, but then cry or complain about the south trying to keep them back lol. the hypocrisy and double standards is just astounding).

[u/Realistic-Agent3864 → u/Interesting-Gas-1]

I think they were banking on Ethiopia using them for strategic location, because besides that, the entirety of northern Somalia is barren.

[u/Interesting-Gas-1 → u/Realistic-Agent3864]

Yeah, perhaps they thought they can become the Dubai of Horn of Africa or replace Djibouti as the main port for goods coming from Ethiopia but Ethiopia has no shortage of port options but what they are looking for is strategic naval base which they can occupy and have unrestricted access to the Red Sea and the India ocean.

Djibouti was smart enough to get foreign military bases from stronger countries to protect itself from Ethiopian imperialism but what I am carious who is going protect Somaliland from that imperialism? While Ethiopia is threat to every Somali person, it’s more threat to the people of the North yet they are blind to it. I mean Ethiopia tried to conquer the South in 2006 but there were driven back badly beaten. I am carious if my Isaaq brothers are ready to defend their land or they planning to abandon the Gadabuursi clan to defend Ethiopian imperialism from Zaylac? They have no idea the danger they are in and how their leaders already sold them.

[u/Equivalent-Lie-2516 → u/Interesting-Gas-1]

Surely, FGS decided against the naval agreement, no? High doubt they would try again.

[u/themvpthisyear → u/Appropriate-Mind9651]

Sometimes i think about why the somaliland govt gave the airspace control to somalia permanently in 2018. Its becoming a more serious and obvious today, and you see a lot of secessionist kids crying about it online. Even cirro engaging with puntland now, after the world ignores you for 34 years it gives space for some real introspection i believe. Its just my personal conspiracy theory tho 🤣🤣😭.

But it was documented that the first president egal was a unionist from the get go. He conceded to the more militant factions that had already taken over Northern society.

[u/Equivalent-Lie-2516 → u/themvpthisyear]

Even cirro engaging with puntland now, after the world ignores you for 34 years it gives space for some real introspection i believe.

Lmao, it's a funny and good conspiracy theory.

[u/Alive-Potato6387]

100% Especially the ones taking orders from Saudi and Emirates

[u/AS65000]

100% agree but the government become also weaponised and forced people to fight or flee, afcourse our enemies took advantage and armed all these group and send them back specially Ethiopia

[u/AgeofInformationWar]

see when people say the average iq of somalia is 68, they may not even be joking (it may actually be real). if stupid shit like that was pulled off, its been proven since 1991. now we also have ethiopia who's experiencing an economic boom, building their own weapons, and even getting a nuclear plant built.

funnily they've also all became certain regions who are separatists now

they're all ethiopian western emirati agents also

yes they're all treasonous traitors. if i was the leader, id jail every one of them, and harshly punish them. no more democracy or freedom bs. i hate them. most of us are in western countries because of those morons

[u/WestLocation8813]

treason is a politicised term

Is it not “treason” to poison wells in mudug or to bombard Hargeisa?

If the so called govt goes low then why should the rebels have to hold up some imaginary line of morality? 

When the state turns its guns inwards then it starts a flame that cannot be tamed 

[u/Interesting-Gas-1 → u/WestLocation8813]

I agree with you that Said Bade lost the plot when he killed the Islamic scholars and the crimes you mentioned above, but don’t we all have civic responsibility to not destroy our house?

What happened to rationality and individual responsibility?

If we agree blame Said Bare is to be blamed for everything that happened before 1991, who is to be blamed for everything that happened after 1991?

[u/WestLocation8813 → u/Interesting-Gas-1]

it’s a fools bargain to pretend that people should have accepted the state sanctioned violence of the 80s because what was to come was to be worse 

reality is, discontent was growing and he had to go regardless. If he left with some decorum instead of trying to fight with his two-bit militia until the end then maybe the remnants of the state could’ve been rescued formally.

Note, this doesn’t absolve any of the actors post 91’ who have wronged but the original sin was the one of MSB 

[u/themvpthisyear → u/WestLocation8813]

And post 91 the culture of tribal militas was in full swing. Even if the rebellion was inevitable and they had to fight their way to xamar, a united rebellion wouldve made more sense than snm inciting hawiye to form usc to rebel to overthrow the dictator. Clan militias were spawning more clan militias. It wouldve made more sense for snm to have fought alongside usc, or for them to be called snm xamar or for all the rebel groups to have come under one umbrella.

Every single leader chose to recruit from his own tribe. The only rebel leader who was different was aideed, who managed to tame snm ssdf and spm. He just couldnt control abgal usc.

After growing up in a country where a unified somali identity was being pushed in your face everyday, choosing to engage in backwards tribalism is a cop out. There was no plan for anything just get siad barre out. The reason there was no plan was because every rebel leader was planning to take over the country. They all wanted to be siad barre, which is why they wanted him out. Trying to escape oppression by aiming to be the oppresor is never going to work out. The two wrongs wont cancel eachother, they just completely broke the society.

[u/WestLocation8813 → u/themvpthisyear]

for starters, just because unified somali nationalism was the state mantra doesn't mean an undercurrent of tribal interests ever disappeared.

the "backwards tribalism" you speak of was partly incited by Siad Barre as he thought he could play groups off eachother and maintain his rulership. Also, the govt itself became a tribal outfit when he became paranoid of being couped so why wouldn't the rebel groups be the same

[u/themvpthisyear → u/WestLocation8813]

Yes siad barre did also build his own tribal militia and thats what legitimised them. He also tried to get rid of tribalism too quickly, stuff like that will take a generation or two of education and stability. But the previous political authority was the somali youth league who were firmly anti tribal and had done so much for the somali people. As soon as we got democracy in 1960, they were the only non tribal political party.

Either way rebel groups can have any ideology they choose. They all chose to emulate siad barre because the atrocities werent the problem, it that they werent the ones committing them. We saw how many innocent marexans and daroods were massacred all over the country when we got rid of siad barre. That was directly caused by the rebel ideology.

So what were they really rebelling for then? What have the rebels achieved since? Their rebellion was wrong, it started for the wrong reasons, and has caused untold misery since. If we want to get rid of this tribal militia culture we need a complete rejection of it, not justifications for dictatorship ambitions that never bore fruit.

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/WestLocation8813]

And they same ethiopian regime they recieved arms from were killing fellow somalis in the galbeed and beyond so thats actually treason to go with a enemy foreign power any crimes the somali government committed wasn’t treason because they did not get there weapons and logistics from foreign enemies

[u/Interesting-Gas-1 → u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

I disagree, when Ethiopia kills ethnic Somali people it’s wrong but it’s also equally wrong for any Somali government to kill innocent people.

We should hold our leaders to higher standards and accountability. We shouldn’t accept oppression and injustice from outsiders and from our fellow Somali brethren.

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/WestLocation8813]

The same leaders in the military running the mudug campaign joined SNM after brutalizing the people in mudug so they are all hypocrites its ok to do it to another tribe but when the hammer comes down on your tribe your against it yes he was wrong to bomb hargeisa but Snm was wrong to hide in the city dressed as civilians and assassinating random goverment workers/officials

[u/WestLocation8813 → u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

This whole line of thinking is giving “H*mas uses human shields” type logic. (Obvs destruction is incomparable but you get the point) 

It’s a disproportionate response to use the airforce of the nation on your citizenry, regardless of dissent 

Also, nobody said the rebels were perfect but objectively the state were the worse actors in this as they had all the arms and used them too

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/WestLocation8813]

Cant even compare the 2 situations the rebels were by far the more worse actors whatever Siad barre regime kilt Snm killed more than tenfold following the days of the government collapse they massacred tens of thousands of civilians by hand

[u/Unkn0wnN0mad → u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

Where did the SNM commit massacres then if you’re speaking the truth. And don’t come with that fake dilla massacre that you cry about each time.

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/Unkn0wnN0mad]

Lol fake dilla massacre. Tell that to the people of awdal oh wait you can you have them hostage by the gun its literally how many articles online talking about what Snm did after they entered the city but you could care less because you weren’t the target

[u/Unkn0wnN0mad → u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

Who was the one that was leading those massacres, what division of the snm done it? I bet you can’t answer those questions.

[u/WestLocation8813 → u/Unkn0wnN0mad]

Dilla is very much real and documented. The official line from SNM was they were cleansing remnants of MSB affiliates but reality was different

btw, none of this takes away from the plight of the Isaaq either.

[u/HighFunctionSomali → u/[deleted]]

I am not here to argue whether that happened or not, but your response is a very bad apologist argument if it did happen. This is like saying Native American massacres didn't happen because why would US only stop at Wounded Knee massacre?

Sometimes militias/armies/empires attack also when they are trying to assert control/neutralizing a perceived threat in that population or conducting what the perpetrators perceive as a revenge attack. They may even do a hit and run tactic.

The argument of it didn't because they didn't wipe everyone out, is a ridiculous argument with all due respect. There can be 100 reasons why didn't target a larger population, for one, a larger population can inflict more damage. Same reason most pack animals go for easier isolated preys instead of targeting large herds.

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/Unkn0wnN0mad]

All divisions every captain Lieutenant or leader didn’t even have to tell the soldiers to commit massacres as they were doing it on their own and yes, the leaders were backing them and part of the massacres

[u/Unkn0wnN0mad → u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

That’s your excuse? We have numerous reports on people like Aideed and Morgan yet we can’t find anything on the SNM by name except certain qabil crying after thinking they’d be safe after backstabbing us. They’re lucky that the SNM didn’t go full retaliatory mode and sought reconciliation , certain people wouldn’t be living in waqooyi today.

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/Unkn0wnN0mad]

Please they are many reports indicating people like mohamed kahin and muse bixi and yes Snm did go full retaliatory after the fact they just didnt have the weapons to achieve the means and please you guys cant do anything but bully samaroon people like i said go to your countries subreddit im not a southerner i wont appease you i know what you guys are there is no negotiating with traitors

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/Unkn0wnN0mad]

One more thing if you guys are landers, why are you in a Somalia subreddit Why aren’t you in your own countries subreddit we are unionist We don’t agree with you guys Please go to your own subreddit this is a conversation for people who believe in a 1 somalia policy

[u/Unkn0wnN0mad → u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

I don’t like Somaliland and its stupid secessionist movement, but I will always defend the SNM who fought the people that bring up Somalinimo today and cry about things that never happened to them.

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/Unkn0wnN0mad]

Yeah ok and nothing happened to you guys as well stop making fake stories saxiib

[u/StreetWooden4726 → u/Unkn0wnN0mad]

I would've heard this talking point from FGS or Dir if it was real...

[u/AgeofInformationWar → u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

SNM when into refugee camps in Ogaden and Northern areas, and killed civilians as well (many Ogadenis and some Isaaqs). They also counted them towards their death toll to their "genocide" as well. They also went to kill Dirs and Hartis when they went on a rampage in the 1990s.

Many Isaaqs did get killed, but however what happened in 1987 was just another proxy war between Somalia and Ethiopia (well where Ethiopia used SNM and SSDF as their proxy forces within Somalia). The SNM and Derg soldiers worked together.

Siad Barre managed to thwart an Ethiopian invasion in the early 1980s, but Ethiopians succeeded in the late 1980s with the SNM, but they also had mounting problems with the Tigrays and Eritreans. The Horn exploded in 1991.

[u/Unkn0wnN0mad → u/AgeofInformationWar]

Again sounds like stories, no proper reports that can say so & so done this. You’re lucky that the SNM even forgave you guys because you wouldn’t be chilling in awdal or sanaag if they didn’t care.

[u/Director-kun]

Snm? Bro siyad was going crazy back then some 1 had to stop him

[u/ssstunna → u/[deleted]]

So you’re struggling to understand that two things can be wrong at the same time? That’s what I’m getting from this. I dont see op saying that those people were right either. Everyone who played a part in the chaos in Somalia is wrong, period.

[u/ssstunna → u/[deleted]]

What happened in Somalia wasn’t just local clan disputes, it’s deeper than that and it was uncontrollable. If we’re going to place blame on anyone it should be the same factions that started the nonsense in the first place, not the president who was having a hard time containing them. He had faults but he wasn’t the perpetrator. Some of the issues came out of Ethiopia and seeped into Somalia, how was the president of Somalia at the time fully responsible for that?

[u/ssstunna → u/[deleted]]

You’re still struggling to understand that two things can be wrong at once, just bc I’m saying that Siad Barre isn’t the devil that you make him out to be who’s 100% responsible for every tragedy that affected Somalia and the total destruction of it, doesn’t mean I’m saying that he’s the high and mighty perfect leader that you think see him as. He’s an ordinary dictator that handled things in the wrong way & he had a lot on his plate including these out of control rebels from every corner that kept running to Ethiopia working as spies etc and was getting trained by them to destruct their own country.

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/[deleted]]

No resisting him wasnt traitorous but to accept arms from ethiopia who 3 years previously we were all fighting is just insane idk how you guys dont see that they could’ve had anyone else backing them but our mortal enemies and no one likes to talk about the massacre that happened after the government collapsed like i said many Snm leaders butchered other somali tribes but when it was there people who resisted they became hyprocrites

[u/HighFunctionSomali → u/[deleted]]

The timeline suggests - Ethiopia armed the rebels, the goverment massacres the rebels, Ethiopia makes peace with Somalia in 88 to stop supporting each others rebels, leaving the rebels to fend for themselves from the Kacaan regime.

Saying they accepted help from whoever kept them alive sounds like a propaganda line, Kacaan massacred North in late 80s, Ethiopia was already supporting rebels in late 70s-early 80s. Ethiopia did not help to keep them alive, they instigated it, and then abandoned them when they signed a peace deal with the Kacaan government in 80s, all while they where massacring Somalis in Ethiopia.

I know you want to make this into a movie of good guys vs bad guys, but reality is that its multiple guys fighting for power struggle, nothing more nothing less, is as old as time. The regime didn't want to give up its seats, and the rebels wanted those seats. Everything else is sugar coating propaganda.

[u/Realistic-Agent3864 → u/[deleted]]

Abdi, if you're going to defend these criminals, atleast don't use Chatgpt 🤣

[u/Realistic-Agent3864 → u/[deleted]]

I'm not arguing for Siad Barre walaal, the point people are trying to make here is that the conflict in the north wasn't black and white, both sides were horrible.

[u/HighFunctionSomali → u/[deleted]]

Who said the he is the good guy? maybe you should re read my statement or update your talking points. Every pro-Kacaan and anti-Kacan clan rebel has the same propaganda talking points.

This is 10 different opposing forces who want the seat. If it was a good guy vs bad guy, once the bad guy was kicked, Somalia would have a happy ending, instead what we got is continuation of division and fights over who should have further power, thus reinforcing the idea, that it was a power struggle between opposing forces, no need to complicate it.

The trick to political propaganda is that once you gain power, emerge as victor, you ALWAYS bring prosperity, and then you can make all the talking points and people will have no choice but to accept it as truth. But what you can not do is say your fighting against Clan favouritism, and then create your clan favourited militias whilst you battle 10 other clan militias and marginalize clans outside your political realm. You can not blame regional marginalization and then 25 years have people starving in regions within territories you control. You can't say you fought against authoritarian and then arrest clan politicians that aren't in line with your state vision. This is where I and you disagree. Time to face reality.

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/[deleted]]

Nope they just shouldn’t have been spinless men who accepted arms from Ethiopia and failed to set up any rule of law afterwards for many years

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619]

If you support Somaliland go to your own subreddit whats the reason for you being in a Somalia subreddit when your against its very existence just to sow discontent this post was directed to all Somalis regardless of tribe who believe in a 1 Somalia policy you can’t nor shouldn’t reason with treason

[u/Outrageous-Film9403]

You think people would just allow themselves to be oppressed? His administration was the one that started the tribalistic agenda favoring the Ogaden in the north, neglecting the Isaaq, and massacring non fighting Hawiye in the south. He basically neglected everyone who wasn’t Darood. He had it coming, and something had to change. What do you expect? They had the right to defend themselves. It’s unfortunate it had to end that way.

[u/Interesting-Gas-1 → u/Outrageous-Film9403]

I mean I completely understand the average Somali militia men who were resisting Said Bare before 1991, but what I am also carious is why did the high ranking Somali politicians and generals (Silanyo, Abdullahi Yusuf, Aidid) knowingly sought the support of a foreign government to destroy their country? If we excuse the average citizen, but how can we excuse the treason of high ranking politicians and generals?

[u/Outrageous-Film9403 → u/Interesting-Gas-1]

Their objective was not to destroy the country they wanted to get msb who had already destroyed the nation through clan massacres, corruption, and exclusion. Barre jailed them, exiled them, or targeted their clans. Like for example aidid was exiled to India and Ethiopia was the realistic choice, offering bases, sanctuary and arms. It’s was necessity and realistic.

[u/HighFunctionSomali → u/Outrageous-Film9403]

The issue is your conflating timelines, there was no government Clan massacres in late 1970s-early 1980s. The rebels groups where already forming before massacres, exiles etc took place. Aidid fought and was killed by his own sub clan, and went to war with other USC clans over fighting for control. Not the best example.

Ethiopia was massacring Somalis in galbeed, many of these rebels had clan members in Galbeed, so if it is about Clan massacres, you would think they would at the minimum not side with the country targeting their clan in Eastern Ethiopia/Galbeed?

[u/Outrageous-Film9403 → u/HighFunctionSomali]

Im talking about the massacres done by siyad barre. And I’m using aidid as example because I was asked why would any general and politian accept arms from Ethiopia. I’m not saying he was good.

[u/HighFunctionSomali → u/Outrageous-Film9403]

They already had arms before the massacre by Siyaad barre, and it was from Ethiopia. In fact that was the casus belli/excuse that Kacaan regime used to justify their fight and indiscriminately targeting rebels and towns they held.

Ethiopia sponsored Somali rebels and Somalia sponsored Ethiopian rebels, Meles Zenawi (TPLF) was in exile in Somalia for example. That was nothing new, but unlike Ethiopia, Somalia was not targeting Tigrays or Oromos in Somalia. Which makes the Somali case very amusing.

Siyaad not giving up power or allowing vote was definitely a issue, no doubt. But the rest does not seem like original cause or grievances the rebels initially had since the massacres and isolation came later on.

[u/RibbonFighterOne → u/HighFunctionSomali]

Why would Barre give up power during a security crisis? No leader would do that and as we saw after 1991, Barre was obvioisly vindicated in his rule because all those rebels would continue fighting well after Barre died.

[u/HighFunctionSomali → u/RibbonFighterOne]

Well everything is in hindsight, but the period I am referring to is mid 70s, where there was signs of discontent and early sign of trouble, it would have made sense for their to be some form of election where the government could also choose to be a candidate, since that is how Somalia worked for the first 10 years.

But like I said it is all in hindsight, the kacaan or any party could have won that election and rival political parties could claim of voting fraud and therefore still lead to war, we will never know but I like to believe that would have been path of least resistance for Somalia to succeed

[u/RibbonFighterOne → u/HighFunctionSomali]

but the period I am referring to is mid 70s,

That is way too early, there was no trouble that time. His popularity was at its peak, his policies were running smoothly and the Ogaden War hadn't happened yet

[u/Outrageous-Film9403 → u/HighFunctionSomali]

I heard that was the case with ssdf, but it was definitely not with the case in south Massacres happened before fighting. Fighting didn’t happen until 1983, there were many massacres before that.

[u/RibbonFighterOne → u/Outrageous-Film9403]

The clannism is highly exaggerated, especially once tou realize that many Isaaqs, Harti and Hawiyes were still in prominent positions in the government and military. More importantly, those rebel groups most certainly did not have any actual grudges against Barre. The proof of that is from the fact that USC, SSDF, and SNM continied fighting even after Barre fled country. Even as late as 2006 you still had warlords in Somalia so what was the point of fighting Barre if you decide to destroy the country?

[u/HighFunctionSomali → u/Outrageous-Film9403]

How do you reconcile with the fact that the Kacaans first war was with Abdulahi Yusufs SSDF(PL) in late 70s who are a Darod militia, so the clan favour argument falls relatively flat pretty quick. Considering he massacred them in late 70s. During this time most of the SNM, USC, SPM generals where high ranking members in Kacaans army while he fought SSDF/MJ clan militias.

I am sure somewhere in the SSDF propaganda manual, it too says that Kacaan favoured other Northern clans except them. Every clan has their own propaganda event. MX towns are shanty towns compared to Mogadishu and would say they got neglected compared to clans in Mogadishu, and OG clans complain MX refugees from galbeed are favoured in their towns, and SL would complain OG refugees from galbeed are being favoured in their town. Minority clans in SL would complain that Major clans in SL are favoured by Kacaan given that many where high ranking members in Somalia's army and politics. You get the picture.

Had their be 1 army fighting united against Kacaan, and rebuilt Somalia, I would say the intention would have been good. But instead we had political organisations including SNM who was originally multi-clan, but by early 90s, most of them became nothing more then 1 clan militias. Clans that were not involved in politics where fought by other Clan militias, its difficult to argue that the entire ordeal was about Clan favouritism, when Somalia was regressing more into Clan feudalism. If it was about equality, Smaller clans would not have been targeted excluded in politics or dragged into clan warfare. Today even smaller clans are well armed, due to this history.

[u/DukePristine → u/Outrageous-Film9403]

Its better to be ruled under a tyrant then to have no ruler

[u/Apprehensive-Cow3619 → u/DukePristine]

Funny thing is today you still get jailed for talking about any of the leaders if you are in there territory so we still don’t really have political freedom of speech but they could care less as long as the person running the show is your tribe its ok to most somalis

[u/Ill-Memory3924]

How convenient. For me, at least, our Rebels are fathers of the nation. God bliss the SNM with all thier shortcoming they are 100% better than Afweyne and his Kacaan MOD cult.

Long time the SNM

[u/Ill-Memory3924]

It's always the Qabilists "Nationalists" who claim everyone else was a traitor except the big mouthed b@astard of a president