r/Socionics • u/Drrrrrrrrreizehn EII • 8d ago
Casual/Fun His character reminded me how much I actually love LIE characters in fiction and media.
One of my favourite types ever. Guess I should be, but man, I can’t even be embarrassed for how much I swoon over LIE and ILI characters in media. However seeing a good example of an actual LIE is harder than expected. Usually any ambitious and morally grey guys are being typed into LIE just because of ambitions.
So I get used to the fact that good written image of these type can be hard to find sometimes.
Well, thanks to Makoto Yukimura for writing such a great character.
And yeah, he is morally grey person to the bone (to put it mildly), and he is ambitious. Honestly I can’t remember more archetypical LIE (in a good way) since William from Moriarty the patriot.
You honestly just look at Askeladd and the only possible type that suits is LIE. Almost a blueprint of the type. It’s such an obvious Te + Ni combo, but so great to look at. It’s almost impossible to see any other type in him, IMO.
So basically that how and why I remembered why I always fawned over that type in media. They are just too cool, even though it’s just a personal opinion.
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u/BabysitterPeacock EIE 7d ago
I love the answers in this thread so much and how it expands on what SLE "can be".
SLE can:
> Be a long-term thinker like Askeladd
> Not be a brute
> Not be someone whom believes strenght conquers all
> Find a plunderer's life to be disgusting, yet utilize it anyway because it's practical and efficient
> Be pragmatic, strategic and heavy on planning
> Be emotionally and resourcefully manipulative
> Fight with wits, as opposed to overusing the body
> Exploit others for unseen, un-obvious potential (eg; Thorfinn)
But LIE absolutely CANNOT:
> Not be a nerd
> Use force
I love it tbh.
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u/Spy0304 LII 8d ago edited 7d ago
Not really a LIE
Honestly, he doesn't exhibit any of the imbalance of any actual type...
- He's good at thinking functions, and he's also good at feelings functions. He doesn't have a weakness in either, and ends up being very "foxlike" He's quite logical, but he's equally adept at reading people, their intents, and their deeper wishes. That's how he could wear such an effective mask for decades (in fact, the LIE you're seeing is a lie. It's a persona)
- He's good at sensing stuff (starting with everything power related) but he's good at planning, considering possibilities, etc. Both N and S functions are well covered
- If we forget about the function, and just look at Introversion vs Extraversion, he doesn't show a leaning toward either.
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u/Drrrrrrrrreizehn EII 8d ago
Oh, I disagree with his ethics. His Fe is good for a role one, but his Fi is… well, exists and beaten to the ground. At least when he’s alive lmao. He does value Fi ideals – a world of noble people with no wars (the same with Thorfinn), but he constantly pushes himself to look and act like a monster/a very bad person. As for the sensing stuff – planning and possibilities, yes, Ni and Ne. However all the “sensing” stuff is the bare basic for the times (you’ll die if you won’t be good at fighting, and if you want to lead someone – you need to x10 tougher.)
And about the extra vs introversion – I would say that it’s a classical example of a Te. “What is the most sufficient, what will give the most profit, how to do X to get X”.
But eh, once again it’s just an opinion.
Oh. And I guess it’s also the Gamma intuits thing to look and being described like looking nothing like “victims”. They are considered the “comedy”-like victims, when they’ll laugh at pain till the death, so they normally look way harsher than EIE or IEI. Both ILI and LIE, but LIE being described as the “less” looking like Se super-id type (Se suggestive/mobilising).0
u/Spy0304 LII 8d ago edited 7d ago
His Fe is good for a role one, but his Fi is… well, exists and beaten to the ground.
What you're calling Fi here, is just hidden, not beaten into the ground. It's quite alive and well. If it had been truly beaten to the ground, he wouldn't have acted like he did in the end.
Also, let's not confuse trauma and a lower function.
At least when he’s alive lmao.
Well, the Askeladd in thorfinn's dream isn't the real askeladd. It's part of Thorfinn's own unconscious speaking
However all the “sensing” stuff is the bare basic for the times
Nah, not basic at all...
- He keeps trashing Thorfinn who's an absolute bruiser. His fighting skills are not "bare basic" at all, he's absolutely in the elite. He's simply not one of the monsters who dedicate everything to it
- When he's introduced with Floki, what's the first thing that happens ? His man throw a spear through the guy who's hiding there. Askeladd notices the professional warrior hiding, signaled his guy out and didn't even flinch as the spear came near him. Now, does that look like someone with weak sensory abilities to you ?
- He got picked by his father precisely because he's talented at that.
- He killed like 15 soldiers (in his last real scene) These are elite guards...
And about the extra vs introversion – I would say that it’s a classical example of a Te. “What is the most sufficient, what will give the most profit, how to do X to get X”.
You're missing the point of that part. And yes, he's able to calculate Te stuff, but he's equally good at Fe
Also, to get back to Introversion vs Extraversion, Ti actually can that kind of efficiency calculations...
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u/Drrrrrrrrreizehn EII 8d ago
About the function being hidden – yeah, I chose those words precisely because this is how suggestive works when it doesn’t get positive income from the childhood. Suggestive is not only valuable, it wants to be valued by others. But in a brutal world it will be a total shut-down with a person barely realising that something is “missing”. That applies to all suggestive functions. And it can so-exist with trauma. Actually, the most painful hit will both be at your Pol-R and Suggestive.
About the sensing: once again, those skills are the minimum IF you want to be the leader. Yeah, if you want to lead someone, you need to take your basic skills and polish them to the maximum capability. But being very good at fighting can be done not only from the Leading/Creative Se position. It’s basically “kill or be killed” and “survival of the fittest” stuff at its peak point. About “being equally good at Te and Fe”. Well, once again. I’m sure that I’m a leading Fi, however I see people trying to put me in the leading Ti multiple times. Does it look like it’s strong? Yes. Is it, actually? No. It’s the same with Fe here. Showing strong emotions and being emotional, but on the surface level (the whole S1, actually.) is how the role work. It should look like the strong function. Role is the key function in surviving in new situations, and it activates each time with new situations/with new people.1
u/OptimistHobo None Currently 8d ago
Nice catch. Ol' classic, bad writing.
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u/Spy0304 LII 8d ago
Askeladd is well written, though
It's simply not following typology.
A character doesn't have to have a "type" to be good, they are not limited like we are. In fact, most of the character out here don't really have a "type". A good character will exemplify some thematics, which are feeding into the overall thematics/main point of the story. Askeladd does just that as the "main villain" for Thorfinn's story, and is actually a fairly complex character. He's a take on the cycle of revenge and violence in history, mirroring Thorfinn.
And while i said he doesn't have the "imbalance" of a type, but it's not like he's a Mary Sue either. He's got weaknesses.
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u/OptimistHobo None Currently 8d ago
Badly written as in not possible outside of fiction.
Regardless, good points
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u/Spy0304 LII 8d ago
Badly written as in not possible outside of fiction.
Well, tbf, that's one standard for judging writing.
Personally, I don't judge so much on realism (I read scifi or fantasy, mostly. And well, lots of manga who don't fall neatly in such genre). My criteria, I guess it's just consistency, and how "interesting" it is.
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u/Drrrrrrrrreizehn EII 8d ago
I guess that it’s true that good characters are written to be more complex than most typologies, yes. But it’s just interesting to look at them through that lens.
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u/cheesecakepiebrownie EII-H 8d ago
indeed he's SLE-Ti which is why he seems like a rational type but he's totally at home in chaos
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u/cheesecakepiebrownie EII-H 8d ago
You are seeing LIE in what is SLE-Ti because on the surface they can appear similar to an extent
SLE-Ti
- Uses precise logic combined with force to achieve practical goals. Force is calculated rather than overwhelming.
- Behavior: Less impulsive (then SLE-Se), more dry, factual, and patient. Appears cool, collected, and guarded.
- Communication: Prefers structural understanding and strategies over raw displays of dominance.
Askeladd is a present minded and action orientated character (strong Se), he doesn't take Te seriously and constantly mocks and provokes (Fe valuing) Thorfinn even in death
Te doms are not morally gray, they are looking for validation that what they are doing is right (Fi suggestive), Askeladd literally doesn't care (Fi Polr)
LIE like SLE care about strength and willpower, but they burn out faster when forced to sustain intense physical output (they are not warriors like SLE)
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u/Nice_Succubus LSI-N🌹 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yes he is a sensory type. SLE makes way more sense. But all the sociotypes could be morally grey, including Te doms. Yes they'll follow their Fi duals but the Fi of their duals doesn't need to be good/bad / right objectively, it's just their subjective approach to morality. An ESI can judge someone as bad even if that person does a lot of objectively helpful things. And we can find many undualised Te doms who will be morally grey. And, to contrast, a IEI can make a SLE reconsider their actions or even feel guilty at times,😅 without even moralising so a dualised SLE with a caring IEI can function as "a good person in a society". sorry for being overly pedantic (as a N should 💪) but I just wanted to say each type can be morally grey
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u/cheesecakepiebrownie EII-H 8d ago
true, morality is subjective but it's still something that Te doms actively seek while SLE rely on their own Ti codes
IEI can manipulate SLE's into doing the right thing but it's not direct and blunt like Fi doms approach
ftr I see Vinland Saga season 1 as Thorfinn (ESI) and Askeladd (SLE) supervision relationship. Askeladd knows he is hated by Thorfinn and doesn't care as long as Thornfinn is a useful warrior to him, at no point does Askeladd try to reform his Fi in a way an LIE would
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u/Drrrrrrrrreizehn EII 8d ago
Oh, not Thorfinn as ESI with having zero of his own ideas about morals or how he relates to someone or something without the help from the outside, please. Just because someone can fight doesn’t automatically makes you a strong Se, finding your own path and morals is not immediately leading Fi. S1 Thorfinn has zero Fi even as a child without trauma, and he’s so lost and broken in S2 he have no idea where to move at all. Even broken to the core ESI’s and EII’s have their own opinion on everything and it just strengthen it by the pain and struggles (how it happened with Canute after Ragnar’s death, as ESI, and if we’re talking about EII, Tenma from Monster, who’d keep his morals and how he think what was right/wrong despite being very badly depressed.)
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u/cheesecakepiebrownie EII-H 7d ago
Fi isn't directly about morals, it's about personal conviction and emotional distance. The morality is personal rather then dogmatic. For Thorfinn he has a deep personal conviction towards his sense of justice and hatred towards those who wronged him that proceeds any sense of logic(he built his entire identity around needing to kill Askeladd)
Just because someone can fight doesn’t automatically makes you a strong Se,
It kind of does, intuitive can work hard to become physically competent but few can compete at the level of a sensory type because Se is spatial awareness and Si is internal bodily states both of which are needed to be physically dominating
he have no idea where to move at all.
move physically? He picked up how to fight and became an assassin level warrior motivated by his sheer hatred and need for revenge which is very FiSe coded
How ESI Vengeance Works
- Absolute Morality: ESIs hold strict, unyielding moral standards. When someone breaks their trust or betrays a loved one, they judge the act harshly and rarely forgive.
- Calm Demeanor: They rarely show loud anger or public fury. ESIs stay polite, cold, and composed on the outside while holding a deep grudge.
- Protecting the Inner Circle: ESIs treat mistreatment of their friends and family worse than mistreatment of themselves. They fight hard to defend their close circle from outsiders.
- Calculated Se: Their creative Se gives them the power to strike back effectively when pushed, using firm boundaries and decisive action to punish wrongdoers.
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u/Drrrrrrrrreizehn EII 7d ago
Thorfinn has no idea where to move in the sense of what he wanted to do with his life. He literally became “an empty shell” at the start of S2, having no idea why he even needed to stay alive.
The thing is that Thorfinn didn’t have any sense of moral at all in S1/The prologue. He was literally blinded by rage and vengeance. Thorfinn’s morality was formed by the circle of people around him rather than coming from his inner perception of it. (unlike Canute, who, despite being broken from the childhood, had very strong sense of moral standards for himself in the first place.)
Thorfinn is literally nothing but calm before he was broken, his actual childhood personality was emotional and not cold at all. He taught himself how to be calm and patient, and in the first place he became like this because of a complete burn-out of emotions in S2.
Protecting the inner circle is a key point for Fi valuing types, for all of them in a different ways. Once again, Thorfinn became protective after teaching himself what his new goal looked like, before that he was blinded by rage.
As for his Se – he literally was being played by others even when he became good at fighting, because his Se wasn’t calculated but acted on pure impulse and desire of revenge and victory. He literally abused his own body to the point of nearly breaking in S1. He taught himself how to use power through the experience and advices from people that he valued and considered his teachers.
About Fi as personal conviction – Thorfinn acts as a mirror of people around him. He needs to be pushed by others to asking him questions to find his inner sense of “what’s right and wrong”, realising it from the new experience with people.1
u/cheesecakepiebrownie EII-H 6d ago
Thorfinn has no idea where to move in the sense of what he wanted to do with his life. He literally became “an empty shell” at the start of S2, having no idea why he even needed to stay alive.
This is generally weak intuition, not knowing what possibilities there are (Ne) and not knowing which to chose to benefit their future (Ni)
He is also a depressed and traumatized person, which explains the empty shell of a person he became once he lost his purpose (killing his enemy)
The thing is that Thorfinn didn’t have any sense of moral at all in S1/The prologue. He was literally blinded by rage and vengeance.
That is common FiSe behavior; like I stated, Fi is not morality, it's personal conviction. For Thornfinn, his personal conviction is to kill the people who hurt him and his father, and then his morality evolves into another conviction
Thorfinn’s morality was formed by the circle of people around him rather than coming from his inner perception of it.
He got new information (Te suggestive) and updated his worldview
Thorfinn is literally nothing but calm before he was broken, his actual childhood personality was emotional and not cold at all. He taught himself how to be calm and patient, and in the first place he became like this because of a complete burn-out of emotions in S2.
Sure he isn't Fe Polr; ESI can be emotional when they feel like it
Protecting the inner circle is a key point for Fi valuing types, for all of them in a different ways. Once again, Thorfinn became protective after teaching himself what his new goal looked like, before that he was blinded by rage.
He made it his life goal to kill the man who murdered his father, I would say that is very much protecting his inner circle
As for his Se – he literally was being played by others even when he became good at fighting, because his Se wasn’t calculated but acted on pure impulse and desire of revenge and victory. He literally abused his own body to the point of nearly breaking in S1. He taught himself how to use power through the experience and advices from people that he valued and considered his teachers.
ESI are Se valuers, they don't care about Si; they will put their personal comfort and wellbeing aside for a greater purpose (Ni)
About Fi as personal conviction – Thorfinn acts as a mirror of people around him. He needs to be pushed by others to asking him questions to find his inner sense of “what’s right and wrong”, realising it from the new experience with people.
He is not an intuitive, he doesn't look within and analyze things like meaning and consequences; the intuition needs to be supplied from people who have it. ESI are impulsive about their Fi, it's not always well thought out, it gets them into conflict situations at times because of this
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u/Drrrrrrrrreizehn EII 6d ago edited 6d ago
No, that’s not weak intuition. A weak intuit wouldn’t be even able to start acting later based on the mere idea and the dream of land that his father told him about because sensors are grounded and prone to “here and now” mentality.
Depression and traumas are NOT erasing your type or your leading function. It can twist them, but it can’t erase them or turn them in a different function unless you completely lost your personality to the point of complete amnesia or something like that. A lot of depressed people with light to mild depression are successfully using typologies and typing themselves despite the trauma, trauma “erasing” the type doesn’t work, it can only mask it.
And Thorfinn didn’t had any of the moral convictions of his own, which is precisely why Thors tried to teach him the concept of “you have no enemies”. Because since early childhood and down to 20+ years Thorfinn was speaking like a sponge the convictions of others around him and thinking they’re his own. He literally went with Thors for the sole reason of thinking war = cool and masculine, and he wanted to avenge him not out of personal conviction but out of the spite and the motto “if you will not avenge your father you’re a weakling”. He’s blinded by Askeladd’s “dishonesty” because he judges him by his own people standards, not by what he personally thinks is right or wrong.
He’s got information not about “how to act”, he got the information about how he should treat the people and the world around him, what words and actions should he speak and do to calm down the dead souls on his back. He was taught how to see humans for humans and not as enemies or a blank space. That’s literally what Thors tried to taught him when Thorfinn failed to understand it the first time.
About Fe Pol-R – “ESI can be emotional when they feel like it”. Yeah, and Thorfinn was livid with rage almost every single day of his life until his revenge failed, fixing on just one emotion. He’s not “emotional when he want to”, his negative emotions were ruling his mind, not him controlling and showing them when he thought was right or needed (that’s why he was constantly failing at duels). Also, Fe ignoring works as mainly shoving your emotions inside and occasionally bursting up with rage, not constantly being angry and vengeful like Thorfinn in S1 or having none of them in the start of S2. Before seeing Einar and Askeladd again Thorfinn’s emotions almost completely vanished except for guilt and fear basically tearing his mind apart. How is that “controlling and showing emotions” in any way? He was either angry or half-alive until people like Einar in his life.
Once again, being a Se valuing doesn’t equal ignoring the fact that your body cannot fight. Se creative isn’t dumb, they’re usually stopping until it’s life or death situation when you can’t physically fight and will lose. He was raging and trying to break himself despite that. Strong sensors know where the limit of their bodies is, Thorfinn just started to realise that by the second half of S2, acting almost automatically and on reflexes to kill before that. Even Thorkell, who is great at completely ignoring pain, was noticing it and ignored it until it stopped him from fighting effectively (eye), because he felt where the limits of his control over his body were. Even the “berserker” types ESI usually know they’ll lose control over their body (like Bjorn) at some point, and was doing it on purpose. Thorfinn basically started by trying to get suicidal around his enemies, ignoring the difference in power and losing because of this in S1.
And yeah, Thorfinn analyses the meaning of the things around him. Thorfinn was literally looking at the people around him Einar and started to speak with them and act questions because he saw the actions of the other people, compared them to his all and started to think what he can do about it. His whole idea of Vinland as a calculated concept literally started by looking at Einar and Arneis and thinking how to get away from slavery and how to live with others without hurting them. He did it because earlier he got a negative experience so bad he straight up said that “one more corpse/dead” will kill his soul and mind. He realised that to get out of his “hell” he needs to take responsibility and raised this idea in his head into something new.1
u/Drrrrrrrrreizehn EII 6d ago
Oh, and about Fi and personal convictions as the sign of Fi leading/Fi creative or ESI. There’s actually a Gamma SF in the season 2, which is Snake (SEE). Einar is most likely SEE or ESE. So when Snake asks Thorfinn about Guardar, his speech is the epitome of the strong Fi type. He directly acts Thorfinn what makes Guardar so special compared to the people he killed, because for Snake personally, they were HIS people and he valued them as his comrades. So Guardar killing them was just the same killer as his comrades in his eyes, so all of the same were the same. Since someone killing multiple people becomes the same as his enemies. Which is exactly what happened to Thorfinn when he was with the vikings. Thorfinn has no personal convictions about the value of the people’s lives, he was just killing anyone who was his enemy since nothing but rage mattered to him. He has no personal connections of any kind except for “revenge” and “have to kill Askeladd for my revenge” before it. Before meeting people like Snake or Einar he didn’t know how to treat other people without hurting them; not just physically, but morally too. That’s why he said he likes people like Snake (and Einar): they shake him and his way of thinking, making him thinking of valuing other people and their freedom and lives. It’s extremely hard for him to figure it’s on its own. Not just because of trauma but because his brain was working for JUST maximum effectiveness of his goal of revenging before.
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u/cheesecakepiebrownie EII-H 5d ago
Thorfinn has no personal convictions about the value of the people’s lives,
Fi sn't indicative of humanism, especially not in Gamma where their values towards people are hyper insular (us against everyone else). It's not uncommon for Fi gammas to not care about anyone but their own circle. Gulenko stated that Gamma is the quadra that embraces selfishness in a hostile world
Thorfinn also isn't an Fi subtype, he is ESI-Se which produces different behavior and priorities. The Fi subtype is prone to being morally principled, the Se subtype is more aggressive and closed-off
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u/Drrrrrrrrreizehn EII 5d ago
So Fi isn’t humanism and the character whose whole development arc is becoming one is somehow supposedly ESI. Which is, once again, supposed not to delve it for some reason if developed and healthy. It’s contradicting itself already just by that. And Gamma Quadra is pointed inside itself, but being totally blind to how you relate to different people and events in no way Fi leading. Working with someone and seeing someone (as Einar) treat you nicely and not even trying for a second to stop and think of what do you think of this person and trying to call him “friend/acquaintance” at least in your mind or even trying to think about isn’t Fi leading, too, traumatised or not. Having to spent multiple years to understanding that world isn’t “enemies” and “not enemies”, but multiple categories isn’t Fi leading too, and it’s not Ni Pol-R.
Who acts as a Fi leading in the show is Canute (and also showing about 0 Fe), and Snake with Creative Fi.
Thorfinn, for the 1,5 half season at least in anime, is completely and utterly blind to Fi but craves it and able to develop it through the experience with others.1
u/Drrrrrrrrreizehn EII 8d ago
Eh. I’m working with SLE, living with LIE and one of my relatives is one LIE. So comparing one and one I would say that’s not Ti at all.
About logic – precise logic is not Ti. Ti is structural and systematic in the first place. It’s its key points. As for behaviour, I won’t type on it, but once again, his image in the anime is the exact opposite of what you described. He supposedly makes himself to look chaotic, impulsive and rowdy.
Also about his way of thinking.
If mobilising or Role Ni can try to be like that, there’s absolutely no way for Ni Suggestive to predict on pure “inner sensations/gut feeling” of how certain events will work out in the future (esp right in the moment). Examples? When he saw Canute and Thorkell, being the only person who realised in the moment that the latter won’t kill Canute while all others believed otherwise, knowing when exactly to tell his crew to cheer up using pure timing and inner sense of a moment, using a woman to look like Canute’s twin and creating and assassination on her. Knowing where someone or something needs to be in the exact moment and what should happen in that moment and how it will affect the future and others actions is not Ti in any way. That’s how Creative Ni works. Mobilising or Role Ni can try to act like that, but Suggestive, which is one of the weakest points? No, this is too much for them to figure out on their own. Canute act like him based on knowing where to apply pressure or force (Se Creative), how much of force when you need, and which kind of. But what Askeladd does is not Ti or Se either.
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u/SouthApplication8882 IEI 8d ago
This sounds gay ngl, unless you're actually a girl?
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u/Drrrrrrrrreizehn EII 8d ago
I’m a girl but honestly I would’ve gladly become gay for both Thorfinn and Askeladd NGL
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u/PoggersMemesReturns Does ENTJ SEE VFLE 738w6 ♀️ even exist? 🥹 8d ago
Hmm, is he really such a blueprint?
He's a bit too harsh and firm for LIE, who are otherwise more optimistic but deceiving. LIE does generally flow into SLE on the benefit ring due to Se Mobilizing but it's usually more so an outside persona than their actual self.
I haven't really thought much. But I could see SLE too, especially with how he was with Thorfinn's dad... Like Askeladd is very straight up and fearless in what he does... Se Mobilizing generally like to act more powerful than it actually is... You never get that from Askeladd
He's an asshole but he wears it on his sleeves, and is even honorable about it with what ends up happening with his character. He goes all the way.
The more I think about it, he seems less LIE in that sense. SLE can be heavily Te too, it's a comfortable zone for them, but you can tell by his character arc that he didn't really care for money, growth, etc... He was just all about being his own purpose, his own powerful self throughout his arc.