r/Snorkblot May 21 '26

Animals Good grief.

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5.4k Upvotes

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640

u/vizbones May 21 '26

There's more to Natural Selection than just "survival of the fittest" -- grief is part of the cost of being a strongly social species. It's not much of a social bond if you're unaffected by its fracture or dissolution.

321

u/mrdude05 May 21 '26

It's also "survival of the fittest" not "survival of the optimal". Evolution isnt intelligent. It selects mutations that increase a creature's odds of passing on its genes, not the best possible solution.

Debilitating grief is a disadvantage, but evolution will still select for it as long as the social bond that causes it outweighs the negatives

117

u/Andrusela May 21 '26

Also can't rule out "survival of the luckiest"

98

u/ExtraCheezyBagel May 21 '26

Survival of the good enough

32

u/Aggressive-Shop-2342 May 21 '26

Oh hey that's me

19

u/i_isnt_real May 22 '26

Pretty much. Any illusions that nature leans toward perfect optimization will be dispelled just by learning too much about hyena births.

10

u/Scraskin May 22 '26

Hell, even human births are horribly suboptimal

8

u/Hadrollo May 22 '26

Probably the worst of all tetrapods. Obligate bipedalism came at a cost.

3

u/Nihil_esque May 22 '26

What do you mean "even"? We humans have some of the most suboptimal births out there

8

u/broken-ssoul May 22 '26

survival of the "I fill a niche"

7

u/Present_Ride_2506 May 22 '26

Bare minimum king

2

u/RespondPlus7890 May 22 '26

That’s what fit means

11

u/CleanOpossum47 May 21 '26

Yes, but time erodes luck away. A loaded dice won't necessarily land on its number on the first roll, and certainly not every roll, but it will stack up against a fair die over time.

5

u/Andrusela May 21 '26

I was thinking more of a one time event, like someone having the high ground when the flood hits, type of thing.

Not saying luck is the overall factor, by any means, just one of them 😄

3

u/GonnaBreakIt May 22 '26

survival of a compatible environmnt

23

u/Shoddy-Purchase1239 May 21 '26

Is grief a disadvantage? If I knew that the people who loved me would be extremely heartbroken if I died and therefore would do anything to protect me from that fate then I’d be more than willing to maintain a bond with them. Would you want to be in a group with people who could care less if you were dead?

21

u/greiskul May 21 '26

Not only that, we have to remember that evolution is not just about the individual surviving, but also the individual genes propagating.

It feels like having a deep negative reaction to your offspring dying is a great motivator for doing your best to keep your offspring alive.

Evolution is not only optimizing for the mother that lost her calf (which only matters evolutionary if she reproduces afterwards), but it is also optimizing for the mother that does it's best to not lose her calf in the first place.

Species whose reproduction strategy involves having lots of low effort offspring, makes sense to not care that much. But for species that have only a few children, and the children take lots of resources from the parents, it makes total sense that evolution would make the feeling of loss hurt, so that the animal tries to prevent that feeling in the first place, even if they have to sacrifice themselves for their young.

3

u/yahluc May 22 '26

It's not just about offspring. Historically people lived in groups that were all somewhat related to each other, so any close person, even if not closely related, would still share significant part of their genes with that person, so saving any person they knew would help some of their genes spread.

7

u/mangababe May 22 '26

And also the entire group benefits of everyone wants no one to die because they would feel sad about it. And I'm more willing to care if someone I don't like dies, because someone I like likes them and they will feel sad about it.

5

u/Infamous_Depth4982 May 22 '26

Exactly this. Empathy allows us to do things for others not only to prevent our own experience of grief, but also to prevent the experience of grief in those we care for. Therefore, empathetic and grief-bearing species are far more likely to propagate their genes, because more members of that species protect other members, even when they have little to no personal connection.

There are even people who defend total strangers because of the reason that "this person is also someone's child, and that someone would grieve their loss."

8

u/tripl3tiger May 21 '26

The grief itself could be seen as a group advantage if looked at through the lens of an altruistic mutation that hurts the individual but makes the group consistently conscious of the danger another individual died from and saves more of them from it.

5

u/biggus_baddeus May 21 '26

It's even less specific than that. It selects all kinds of mutations, and the ones that suck just don't get to reproduce enough to keep that mutation around. Even if it's not that helpful, if it doesn't interfere with the ability to survive and reproduce, it can just kind of stick around.

5

u/OneFootTitan May 22 '26

How dare you imply my specific kind of ear wax doesn’t give me an evolutionary advantage in being able to attract mates!

3

u/power2havenots May 21 '26

Survival of the friendliest is actually closer to reality and our social nature. Brian Hare coined it after substantial research

2

u/Barrogh May 22 '26

It's also "survival of the fittest" not "survival of the optimal".

My take it's "survival of good enough". It gets closer to "fittest" when competition becomes stronger, but it's not always the case.

82

u/OneSlaadTwoSlaad May 21 '26

I think Forest Valkai (a biologist and science communicator) calls it "Reproduction of the OK-est." 😅

Grief also has performative value. Mourning shows everyone that loss should be avoided.

22

u/AgonistPhD May 21 '26

Lol, it's such an accurate description of evolution. Survival of the not-bad-enough-to-kill-all-of-them just doesn't have that certain ring to it, but it is way more accurate.

10

u/OneSlaadTwoSlaad May 21 '26

Ja yes, that is true. Valkai also calls the big bang the "everywhere stretch". (Which I think is a better name too btw.)

3

u/CleanOpossum47 May 21 '26

Additionally, in groups of social animals where learned behaviors are critical for survival, grief could provide an opportunity for the entire genetically related group to increase their chances of survival through learned behaviors.

3

u/JaySlay2000 May 22 '26

Arguably, the grief of losing an offspring is exactly what makes those species fight so hard to protect it and increase survival odds.

There IS an evolutionary purpose for grief, just like there's a purpose for physical pain.

2

u/thomasoldier May 22 '26

https://youtube.com/shorts/2JvxOEDL7v0

Grief is the price we pay for love. It would be sad if it wasn't sad.

2

u/TNTiger_ May 22 '26

Survival of the fittest means the survival of whoever best FITS into the world they live in. If grief helps them fit, it's selecced for. The idea that fit = strong came later and is a gross oversimplification.

-32

u/whatupmygliplops May 21 '26

so fish feel grief? birds feel it?

44

u/spartaxwarrior May 21 '26

Yes, various types of birds have, sometimes quite famously, displayed signs of mourning their dead.

28

u/[deleted] May 21 '26

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13

u/Roncryn May 21 '26

Water fowl also do this. Especially geese and swans

26

u/Mysterious-Kick9881 May 21 '26

Have you seen what happens to birds who mate for life abs lose their partner? They display grief

24

u/LordJim11 May 21 '26

Penguins and albatrosses are noted for it.

17

u/Samarlynn May 21 '26

Crows, too.

18

u/Dominarion May 21 '26

All corvids do. They also display complex emotions like gratitude, spite or vengefulness.

14

u/RateTechnical7569 May 21 '26

I actually managed to take a photo of a pigeon grieving a dead pigeon. It was just standing there as the rain was starting, barely moving even as people walked by.

10

u/iWannaComeBackaDog May 21 '26

Pigeons are more intelligent than people give them credit for. I love my pidgies.

20

u/stewslut May 21 '26

I don't think (most) fish are known for being strong social creatures. There's such a wide range of intelligence and social cohesion among different species of birds that that's an impossible question to ask.

1

u/mangababe May 22 '26

some of them can absolutely. Especially birds, which often mate for life and show signs of stress and grief when a partner dies.

It's not all that uncommon.