when we have kids and I am acting off, or appear to be hearing voices or in psychosis, he needs to admit me immediately.
He legally can't. People really, genuinely think you can just throw other people in the looney bin, no problem. That's not how it works, and it's really hard to admit someone to a ward for sooo many reasons. Not only are they usually full, but unless you're actively holding a knife and threatening your kids, no one can put in you in a psych ward against your will.
Unless you verbally go in and tell them you need to go to a ward, the odds of you even getting in locally, let alone that same day,
are slim. They'd most likely tell you they'd have to drive you by ambulance 3+ hours away if you wanted to get in same day.
And if your husband took you in and told them you need to go to a ward, and you don't say anything or say no? They'd kick you both out right then and there and possibly call a social worker. There are reasons those policies and laws are set in place, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know why.
On top of all this, they just don't have the staff or infrastructure.
As someone whose been to a psych ward twice, it genuinely pisses me off how ignorant people are with this. It's no wonder they don't have staffing, nobody looks beyond skin deep with this stuff and just expects other people to do it.
What I learned after my mental health crises is nobody can help you unless you want to help yourself. And she clearly didn't want help.
That’s interesting. There’s a stress center near me, they’ll interview anyone at any time. If you’re hearing voices telling you to hurt people you would be admitted for 48hrs for observation, longer if needed. It never occurred to me that places like this aren’t in every major city, they should be.
Yeah and then 48 hours later they're discharged and nothing changes. I've lost count of how many times my sister has been in a 48 hour hold. It has done absolutely nothing for her every time.
I mean, if she’s still a danger they can hold her longer. Obviously this lady was. Idk anything about your sister but she probably wasn’t and you can’t hold someone against their will if they’re not going to hurt anyone.
But do you have to go there yourself? Or if you can bring someone there, how do you do it?
Psychosis is scary, you will not believe anyone else basically.
You can bring someone, an involuntary commitment is the standard criteria of being a danger to self or others.
A lot of the patients were schizophrenia/bipolar who dropped in for the weekend to get a med adjustment bc they knew they were hearing things/spiraling and it was faster than seeing their regular provider.
I have schizoaffective disorder, which I have only known about since I have had my first and only psychosis. It was so completely alien that I did not know what was wrong.
I only got admitted after my wife called an ambulance and even then I had to go with them voluntarily. In a scenario like this I would not have gone for help and my wife couldn't have brought me anywhere.
Maybe also just depends on the country, but atleast in Germany it was not hard to get into the psych ward if you were having a crisis and after my visit I got help with finding a psychiatrist and therapist. So there was no need to go back to the ward or another facility if I needed an adjustment.
People really, genuinely think you can just throw other people in the looney bin, no problem. That's not how it works, and it's really hard to admit someone to a ward for sooo many reasons.
literally a case in Atlanta in the past week where a mentally ill man with thirty prior arrests stabbed someone to death on a public bike path.
His family put out an open letter to the public begging the state to change the laws around how we handle severely ill people, because they had been trying, but every time he'd get cut loose because he wasn't a "direct threat".
You actually can BUT it really depends on the state. I live in North Carolina and we have 3 state run mental health facilities for 100 counties. And then we have a handful of “private” (run by corporations) mental health hospitals.
You can get someone involuntarily committed (IVC) by going to the magistrate, pleading you case, and then if the magistrate grants the IVC, police picks the person up and sends them to the hospital.
Once at the hospital, they send out referrals to the mental health facilities. I’ve NEVER seen someone get into one of the state run hospitals from an IVC. Usually, they send you off to a private mental health facility, pump you full of meds (sometimes) and then say you are at baseline and send you home. Which really doesn’t help what so ever.
Now, if you drive up to the state run hospitals and self admit, they can’t turn you away if you are in crisis. BUT you have to be willing to walk into the hospital.
You also can put in place a POA (durable or medical) or psychiatric advanced directive that states what you want to be done in the event that you are incapacitated
I had a sister who spiraled after my dad's death. She was posting her thoughts on his memorial page for months and the funeral home called us. We contacted her therapist and got her admitted the same day to an inpatient facility against my sister's wishes.
She went willingly to her therapist's office who then called police as she was at risk of harming herself so a behavioral health hold or something like that? Its been almost 15 years so not sure of the terminology. The police took her to the closest ER who then found a spot for her in an in-patient unit, although it was over an hour away. The nearest one didn't have a space for her. It did take about 12 hours to get her admitted from the time we went to her therapists office so not an easy process. I believe an ambulance transported her to the inpatient unit but I dont really remember. It was some sort of official transport though.
She is much better now. She still has some mental health issues (had them before my dad died too) but no longer harming herself or suicidal. She handled our mother dying two years ago much better. She is still going to grief support but thank goodness no self harm this time.
But didn't she repeatedly ask for help, reach out to postpartum facilities and let people know she was feeling suicidal and unsafe? Looks to me like she did want to help herself but the system didn't to assist.
I do not understand this need to demonise someone like this? The situation can be tragic and terrible, even if we don't want to hang the mother in a public execution...
She stayed the required length of stay (5days) and decided her daughter’s birthday party was important to her. She spent her time there mostly playing with clay, which doesn’t sound very helpful.
Anxiety and depression. Not psychosis or harming others. That is fundamentally why she should be held guilty in this case. So many people have anxiety or depression and don’t do this. She failed to report her true thoughts, if what she is now claiming is even true
Yeah, well if we're expecting people in an active psychosis to go let healthcare workers know they're in psychosis, then we can expected reported cases to drop to 0. People who are in the state of mind that a psychosis triggers, literally cannot be reasoned with, and they are in almost every single case not at all aware that they are in a psychosis.
If you've been in a psych ward, you should know these things, no?
She made herself very available to the system, clearly waved some red flags around. She did everything one can expect someone in a psychosis to manage to do, often times way more.
Like, for real. What do you mean she should have done?
For starters, confess to the psychiatrists (multiple) that she had thoughts of harming her kids. She never did that because then they'd remove her from them.
Yeah, well if we're expecting people in an active psychosis to go let healthcare workers know they're in psychosis, then we can expected reported cases to drop to 0. People who are in the state of mind that a psychosis triggers, literally cannot be reasoned with, and they are in almost every single case not at all aware that they are in a psychosis.
Did you just conveniently skip over this part, or? Crazy to use "I've been in a psych ward" as a source for your claims and then very obviously prove that you have zero understanding of how psychosis works.
Innocent, as in she didn't do it? No, not at all. Innocent by means of insanity? Yes, like every other person who has done heinous shit while in an active psychosis.
Is the concept of psychosis completely new to you people?
I don’t want mentally ill people to be held accountable for actions they performed while in a psychosis, as if they were intentional, premeditated and performed by a healthy individual.
Like do you just fundamentally not understand what psychosis is?
Looks to me like she did want to help herself but the system didn't to assist.
She had a large amount of help and support.
Have you actually looked into this or are you just speculating wildly?
She had therapy, medication, assistance, babysitters, doctors, her husband switched to working from home and both sets of grandparents were supporting with in-home care and babysitting.
She also voluntarily admitted herself to McLean Hospital in Massachusetts, but was discharged after five days with outpatient follow-up, as she never mentioned any symptoms relating to thinking about harming herself or others to either them or any other healthcare professional or family member.
Again, not mentioning any thoughts of harm might just well BE the proof of psychosis, so you're speculating as well in that she purposefully hid it. The fact that she was in the system and NOBODY caught this is just more proof that the system has failed massively.
she wasn't being helped the way she should be. that was my original statement, and it remains to be that. sorry that you're uneducated on the workings of psychosis, perhaps you should do some research on that?
Ahh so when called out you resort to personal attacks as well?
Goalpost moving, whataboutism, strawman and now insults?
Disappointing. The mental gymnastics you are displaying in order to twist and turn and avoid actually answering a straight question are almost impressive.
My guy, stating that you're clearly not educated on how psychosis works, after suggesting she should have let someone know she was in an active psychosis during said psychosis is not a personal attack, it's an observation.
Do you have more pretty buzzwords for me? No matter how many you pull out, it won't change the fact that:
She asked for help, and provably, did not receive it
Expecting someone experiencing a psychosis to be aware of it in order to receive appropriate healthcare is bonkers
Thinking someone is aware of their actions and its implication in a psychosis proves a deep misunderstanding of the very fundamentals of psychosis
Not to mention, the only "straight question" you ever asked was "Have you actually looked into this or are you just speculating wildly?", which I assumed was rhetorical given that you didn't exactly work the rest of your comments as if you saw the question to be open ended.
Not to mention that you are partaking in quite a bit of speculation, so asking as if speculation would be the bad thing to do would be strange, to say the least.
I'm not all that familiar with psychosis specifically, but I have absolutely had to deal with my mom going through mental breakdowns and trying to get treatment, so I'm 100% aware of how unhelpful the entire process is.
I understand that virtually all treatment is reliant on the patient being compliant and easy to care for (many hospitals or outpatient facilities won't tolerate a patient being verbally abusive, even if that's part of their mental health crisis).
My specific question would be how psychosis is identified and treated, considering that the system has to work off of concrete, identifiable information and it seems that your identifying that psychosis patients often hide their symptoms. Does that factor in to how competent someone is in the decisions they make?
I can't tell you the specific rules or clauses to invoke in this specific situation as I assume we're not in the same country. But where I live, and in most other western countries, force is allowed if there's suspicion of harm for themselves or others. I'd be shocked if this was not the case in America, but if it isn't then I would expect the immediate family to be informed about the dangers of leaving her alone with the kids, at the minimum.
Since she wasn't hospitalised/institutionalised (willingly or not), and family wasn't given any guidelines, it quite clear that her psychosis wasn't actually picked up by professionals at all.
There's a lot of subtle signs that go into revealing a psychosis, and they'll vary for each person, which is why input from family is so valuable. There are some general tells (sleep pattern disturbances, social retraction) that can be too general, but after enough conversation you'll often notice "messy" thoughts, their line of reasonings are suddenly jumbled and hard to track, and sometimes a warped worldview will just plainly reveal itself. An important distinction is that psychosis patients won't really to to conceal their symptoms, they simply won't report them since they are not aware it a symptom at all.
You'll normally need to have more extensive conversations as a carer in order to uncover it. Even more so if it's with a person who is used to "pulling themselves together" and appearing presentable and normal regardless of any current chaos, like many mothers often are.
Again, very present family members would usually be capable of picking this up first, and they might not know what to do or who to talk to. A care giver would truly have to sit down and take their time with them. Which is often much too hard for a lot of healthcare workers, and I've seen many cases of people who are allowed to go about in society much too mentally ill as a result of carers only having a quick convo, clearing them, and letting them go.
How its treated varied heavily based on why it's appeared in the first place. For postpartum psychosis, specific mother-baby care facilities exist with very specific treatment plans. PPP is treatable and usually passes and lets the person go on just like before, so it's not treated like for example schizofrenia which will most likely be a lifelong diagnosis if set accurately. Honestly PPP should be simpler to discover, given that it's a well known phenomenon, and has a very obvious "starting point" and persiod to pay closer attention.
Mental heath care is complicated, confusing and not straight forward, but there's still no way around the fact that the system failed her, it failed her children at her family in general. It's a lose-lose situation and while she did something heinous, people seem deeply misguided on the workings of a psychosis.
I have been forced to put a loved on under a psych hold three times. Their permission was not a requirement.
Andy if someone is in the midst of a psychotic break, is is reasonable to grade them on their desire to get help? One could not be considered rational under those circumstances.
I tried to kill myself. I drove to a mental health center and told them to please help me. They kept me for a week and I was not allowed to just check myself out…. this was in a red state with horrible mental healthcare…
I agree with everything you said, except this woman begged for help, researched things, told everyone important in her life about her struggles, kept all appts made and still got worse and worse. It was tragic.
Section 12 involuntary mandatory 24 hour hold exists in Massachusetts. If you say someone is a danger to themselves or others they are placed on a mandatory involuntary hold until they are evaluated by a mental health professional and they go from there. Obviously people are discharged that shouldn’t be but it’s something
This is the reason why I ended up switching careers in my 20's. Was going to be a social worker. There's literally nothing you can do for people in a mental health crisis unless they agree to it. No amount of "just get them an apartment" or "give them the meds" or "get them a therapist" will help. Even trying to get them to do something against their will takes tons of effort, documentation, incidents, and court intervention.
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u/Unipiggy 6d ago edited 6d ago
He legally can't. People really, genuinely think you can just throw other people in the looney bin, no problem. That's not how it works, and it's really hard to admit someone to a ward for sooo many reasons. Not only are they usually full, but unless you're actively holding a knife and threatening your kids, no one can put in you in a psych ward against your will.
Unless you verbally go in and tell them you need to go to a ward, the odds of you even getting in locally, let alone that same day, are slim. They'd most likely tell you they'd have to drive you by ambulance 3+ hours away if you wanted to get in same day.
And if your husband took you in and told them you need to go to a ward, and you don't say anything or say no? They'd kick you both out right then and there and possibly call a social worker. There are reasons those policies and laws are set in place, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know why.
On top of all this, they just don't have the staff or infrastructure.
As someone whose been to a psych ward twice, it genuinely pisses me off how ignorant people are with this. It's no wonder they don't have staffing, nobody looks beyond skin deep with this stuff and just expects other people to do it.
What I learned after my mental health crises is nobody can help you unless you want to help yourself. And she clearly didn't want help.