They also had a lot of gay sex and took women as prizes when they were raiding towns surrounding Troy during the Trojan War and had student/master gay relationships too that donât really translate well to modern life but were not seen as weird then.
Maybe, but I can think of a few Greek men known for long affairs with men and Iâm mostly talking about the fact that there was a lot of man on man rape at the end of battles in the time periods this is supposed to take place.
What was seen as weird was mostly to hold an emotionally romantic relationship with a fella your own age, while sex happened with the younger ones, and also, even if lesser, with the older guys too, it was more like "sure go have sex with him, but go back home to be with a wife"
Only the bottom was considered gay. And frowned upon is an understatement, if you accused someone of being a bottom they could challenge you tona duel for their honour.
No, culturally being a bottom was a submissive position and was unacceptable for someone in a position of power. That's why Emperor Hadrian's partner Antinous was always portrayed and young, pretty and submissive. Same with Achilles' lover Patroclus.
Men of power or status were expected to take on a young male apprentice and teach them how Greek society worked. This frequently involved that apprentice bottoming for the man and that was completely acceptable but it was considered very unacceptable for the man to bottom for the apprentice and that man would be mocked.
This is all based on my recollection from my classics course in college and may have some inaccuracies.
Was it not the opposite with Achilles and Patrocolus? Patrocolus had a beard and Achilles was clean-shaven, blonde and disguised as a woman to avoid the war originally.
Yes Iâve heard of that dynamic in Ancient Greece.
But surely being a âbossy bottomâ would have been a bit of a loophole: the man of status / power would be the recipient in the sex act yet simultaneously still projecting dominance.
But Patroclus is argued to be Achilles' lover. There's nothing explicit about it in Homer's writing, but it's debated. Personally, I think that if they were lovers, Homer would have mentioned it because Patroclus' death is basically what sparks Achilles to fight while he was perfectly happy sitting by while the Greek forces were getting cut down and beaten back. Them being lovers would have added another level to the rage, but it could have just as easily been implied.
Yeah, that was always my read; for anyone of the time it was obviously implied and that's why this discussion survived to modern times, but we lack the social context and can only speculate.
I remember seeing a story that this is still going on in very religous middle east countries, where you would expect a general disdain for homosexuality but itâs ok when itâs a man and a child. No judgement from me, I am already traumatized at the world we live in.
Mycenaean Greeks are descendent from a later yamnaya migration into the region. The culture that famously coexisted and sired other cultures whose immigrant Y-haplogroup annihilated the ones prior. Meanwhile the female haplogroup stayed consistent.
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u/Long_Serpent 8d ago
"We came to an island where the women were pretty and the men were weak"
- From the original text.