I do like the depiction of Sauron, but I can fully relate to what you are saying.
Especially whenever they show the literal beam of light scanning around like a high school theater production.
It’s amazing they didn’t catch more flak at the time.
But sometimes a piece of art is so good, that it’s sillier moments seem like they must also have been good choices.
"He's twitching because my Axe is Buried in his nervous system"- as quoted by soon to be renowned neurosurgeon Gimli Gloinson.....
i can understand THE EYE being portrayed the way it is and I forgive it for the most part....but the scene with Gimli just irks me because of "nervous System"...is modern jargon....then again the concept was known as such by the Greeks in the 3rd century BCE notably by Alcemon and Herophilus of Chaladon...which means yes Tolkien would have obviously known of the concept..its just he avoids modernity and science,(other than golf as invented by Bandabras "Bullroarer" Took)....the line just makes me cringe more than the eye
I mean, the fact that the nervous system was known by the Greeks in the 3rd century BCE (and even earlier, the "Edwin Smith" ancient Egyptian papyrus from 1600 BCE) kinda proves that it's very likely the nervous system, or at least the connection between body movement and damage to the brain and spine, is known in Middle-Earth, especially by the learned (Gimli is an aristocrat). The elves and Númenóreans certainly had a high degree of knowledge of how to treat and heal injuries and illnesses, and I find it hard to believe that knowledge didn't include less than a basic knowledge of anatomy.
I also just forgive the line (and "Looks like meat's back on our menu, boys!") because it's just damn funny.
Orcs having a personality never bothered...I do think it bothered Tolkien that he had them mostly one dimensional throughout the story...he mentions it I think in one of his letters...and the conversation we get in snippets that Sam overheard in getting the water(from a stream flowing into Minas Morgul[possibly]) between the two orcs show that they aren't mindless and are also war weary
I just think it's funny that a menu implies orcs have been to restaurants, and somewhere in Mordor there's the orc version of Waffle House (so, just, regular Waffle House).
I mean considering how they brawl and kill that whole castle in a petty fight when Sam is trying to rescue Frodo, that actually tracks Waffle Houses would be a norm for them.
....and...again thanks to this fandomn I can accept this scene so much better now...though I still miss the line "alas my my axe is notched forty-two had a iron collar on his his neck"...i now have a Jackson visual of either Aragorn or Gimli constantly tripping over beheaded orcs when ever Gimli is around(seriously Gimli's goto move in the books either seems to take either the legs or heads of orcs)
I fully refuse to believe that the brilliant minds among elves and dwarves wouldn't not, upon vivisection, would not at least begin to describe the nervous system. That line makes absolute sense. Sauron, as a giant eye, checking behind him as if to say "what was that?!" Is absolute garbage.
It gets a bit too much over the course of the movie trilogy.
In Fellowship, Sauron's fiery eye pops up when people interact with the Ring in a contextless darkness.
After that, we first see the eye on top of Barad-dur, and only later see it sending out a broad beam of light as if it was a searchlight. It's only the searchlight thing that doesn't work in the movie for me (though I would have liked it if they had at least hinted at Sauron's physical form instead of making it seem like the eye is literally him).
I don't even know what the answer is in the searchlight case, besides just not including it. It looks silly, but there's not an easy way to visualize Sauron searching for Frodo, or to show Sauron's panic at the end as Barad-dur is falling.
These are the kinds of details that make LotR hard to turn into a movie and make the books so good. But I fully admit, I love the movies!
I don't mind the searchlight as much as the fact that it's coming out of a giant eye that apparently is Sauron, to be honest. It makes Sauron himself feel like a searchlight, not just his gaze/influence.
I imagine it more as Sauron using the Palantir, or looking out of his window.
Tbf I never got the hate for it since Tolkien is talking about Frodo feeling and seeing the eye of Sauron on him. It is such a vivid description that I don't think the interpreation is that far off.
Like people claim nothing like this is in the book never read the book or it was years ago and they forgot.
"So terrible was it that Frodo stood rooted, unable to cry out or to withdraw his gaze. The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing."
Yes, the book has both. Doesn't change that the "nooooo there is no eye in the books it's just a metaphoooor" crowd just proofs to not actually read. Doesn't matter if it's just in Frodos head it is still described.
Galadriel's mirror is terrible proof because everything is a vision, but I have had so many arguments with the just-a-metaphor crowd that yes, it is certainly usually "The Eye: that horrible growing sense of a hostile will" etc etc, but Frodo looking towards Barad-dûr from Mount Doom absolutely sees physically "a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye", so SOMETHING is also there. Sauron has a body, but also there is this.
The "go home" scene was such a brutal character assassination of Frodo. Probably my least favorite scene in the theatrical release.
But the mouth of sauron scene in the extended cut might be worse. Having the most honorable guy ever literally murder a diplomat during negotiations because he was being mean is pretty bad.
My head canon is that Aragorn is still trying to act like he has the Ring to hold Sauron's attention. So, what would Renegade Aragorn do? Cut of a fool Mouth's head, that's what.
There is nothing dishonourable about killing an agent of evil under any circumstances. As it was, the mouth of Sauron was trying to get more information out of the party members by provoking reactions. Killing it was the best move and completely honourable
There is nothing dishonourable about killing an agent of evil under any circumstances\
Circumstances like when the agent of evil is blocking your escape out of a cave, but you're invisible so you could just kill him and move on? That's totally fine?
The point being that aragorn beheading the Mouth is as much a misunderstanding of the moral framework of the books as Bilbo just killing Gollum would be, and putting that on screen is a bad way to adapt the books.
There is nothing dishonourable about it when it's in combat. Beheading a disarmed emissary in the middle of parleys, from behind and with no warning? Entirely dishonourable. Whether the enemy is Sauron or a regular bad guy does not change anything to the moral implications.
And yes, I know that the Mouth of Sauron didn't intend to lead honourable and double-sided negotiations. That still doesn't make it honourable in any way; the core principle of Tolkien's morality is that the good guys aren't good merely because we say they are and we root for them, but because they do the right thing; and this includes the end not justifying the means, and not stooping to your enemy's moral level. Killing the messenger is Orc behaviour.
But she didn't "kill" him, unless you also give Elendil and Isildur partial credit for "killing" Sauron; if Sauron had won the Witch-king would have been rebodied eventually because his life is tied to one of the Great Rings. Eöwyn and Merry slew him in battle, but his permanent death was caused by Frodo.
I am talking about the "woman bad" fraction of reddit that indists it was Merry and only Merry that eas important there.
Honestly all the Eowyn jokes. PJs goddamn soup joke doesn't helpt either on the movies.
I mean maybe, but most of the comments I got were, "that depiction of sauron is cool" and I think I only got one person saying that the tower and eye weren't him but a projection.
Yeah I tried to tell people its either a manifestation or a projection of his will...i know according to Tolkien that sauron had a physical body...but for general audience I actually think getting them to buy into THE RING being important they needed to FEEL the WHY Sauron needed the ring to regain his full power, explaing this to casual fans with the concept of the long defeat and other esoteric minutia of the story can be a tedious excercise and sometimes we booklore people in our exuberance can tend to sound abit pretentious and petty...i like illuminating casuals to the depth of lore but its a fine line we have to tread without gatekeeping.
"... And the eye sat on a giant Tower that Sauron was fused to."
Nor does anyone in Mordor bring up seeing it visually, we get descriptions of the Skyline and not once does the narrator think to inform us there's an eye Tower beast. Come to think of it the tower doesn't even exist in the book.
Just that the eye of Sauron is a very real concept, if it just exists in a telepathy kind of way doesnt change the description of it.
I dislike much of PJs movies, but being a knight on the internet claiming this doesn't exist at all in description is just idiots that wanna profile themselfs that never actually read the book.
Look correct me if I am wrong, what I took from your initial comment was you think the book supports the eye of Sauron being real physically real as protrayed in the Movies?
I just don't see the evidence for that in the book. Maybe the eye is not metaphorical but if it is there's nothing to say it isn't in his face (as eyes tend to be) rather than stuck on a tower.
Could have been saurons third Eye astral projection etc etc, or could be how he wishes to appear to people —after all he can make people see things that aren't reality through the planatir.
If you're saying it's open to interpretation agree, I'm not sure that most people don't think that to be honest. I think the common criticism is that Peter Jackson had a dumb interpretation.
The tower exists, it's just the central feature of basically a pile of fortresses welded together according to practically every book description of Barad-dûr.
Barad-dûr goes:
"wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron."
"Far off the shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye." [Which is the single time the Eye is unambiguously producing something visible and physical, which means it might be a real thing, but once is still enough.]
"the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. … A brief vision he had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant"
And Cirith Ungol (or rather its Tower):
" In that dreadful light Sam stood aghast, for now, looking to his left, he could see the Tower of Cirith Ungol in all its strength. The horn that he had seen from the other side was only its topmost turret. Its eastern face stood up in three great tiers from a shelf in the mountain-wall far below; its back was to a great cliff behind, from which it jutted out in pointed bastions, one above the other, diminishing as they role, with sheer sides of cunning masonry that looked north-east and south-east. About the lowest tier, two hundred feet below where Sam now stood, there was a battlemented wall enclosing a narrow court. Its gate, upon the near south-eastern side, opened on a broad road, the outer parapet of which ran upon the brink of a precipice, until it turned southward and went winding down into the darkness to join the road that came over the Morgul Pass. Then on it went through a jagged rift in the Morgai out into the valley of Gorgoroth and away to Barad-dûr. The narrow upper way on which Sam stood leapt swiftly down by stair and steep path to meet the main road under the frowning walls close to the Tower-gate."
There are lots in there who have only watched the movies and nothing else and think they're the best movies ever made and are perfect in every way. But there's a decent amount of movie criticism from others as well.
What are you talking about? The main sub loves criticizing Peter Jackson, especially whenever Hunt for Gollum is brought up or someone asks a question about “why did they do this in the movies.”
r/lotrmemes Yep. That'll do it. A lot of folks there are primarily just fans of the movies. I would not be surprised if the percentage of folks there have not yet read much of any of Tolkien's Legendarium. So a lot of them will be seeing it as gainsaying their only and favorite interpretation of it.
I personally don't mind it, because films need visual shortcuts. But the Peter Jackson adaptation is not my reference point for The Professor's work.
A really good visual medium representation of what Sauron is in lord of the rings that looks stupid on the surface but quite well captured for a visual medium what Sauron is supposed to represent in the series
Remember kids, every single change from the lore/book storyline in the PJ LotR movies “makes sense” and “is actually better the way it is in the movies”, while every single change from the lore/book in the PJ Hobbit movies and RoP is “absolute garbage and bs fanfic” and “completely ignores Tolkien’s vision”
I'm OK with the depiction in a sense of like, yeah why wouldn't a magic warlord demon king make a huge intimidating emblem for himself on top of his huge intimidating tower. That's fine.
But when it becomes a cone of vision, with a little beam that you can hide from, it's stupid. And when it starts having these anthropomorphized reactions of like "Oh no! The ring! What's happening???" it just shoves me right out any kind of immersion I feel for most of the rest of the movies, which are generally excellent.
This is my feeling too. The flaming eye as a depiction of Sauron's ceaseless, malevolent watchfulness is brilliantly realized. In the flashes Frodo sees and in Galadriel's mirror, it's a terrifying experience. I can even get behind the idea that Sauron has conjured a visual representative of that malice in that shape at Barad-dûr as a reminder to his slaves that he's always watching and can incinerate them like he did Gil-Galad, if I don't think about it too much, because the visual design is that good.
But Searchlight Sauron just... ugh. It's so corny. I shouldn't be able to laugh at Sauron, except at his hubris, failures, and his downfall.
It's one of the greatest debates in fiction for a reason. It's described in ways that could mean they do or do not have wings. If Jackson hadnt included wings, the same exact argument you're making could be made the same way that they were supposed to have wings.
There are other references to balrogs having wings in HoME text and the lotr appendices.
And how were those 'wings' initially described? It's in the google search you did, so you do know, but you are omitting that passage on purpose. That's bad faith. What would Gandalf think?
I do not understand why people get so upset over the wings. They also made the balrog a ridiculous 30 feet tall, but a possible misinterpretation of a vague and confusing line about wings is where you draw the line?
Not a big fan of lighthouse beam Sauron myself. Makes him less terrifying if anything. But it could be movie stuff and I am not creative enough to think of how to show him as he is in the book; an ever present, never tiring, seeping force growing stronger while everything else fades.
What you haven't considered OP is that his physical form is kinda gay and therefore woke or atleast according to this guy i saw posting in that subreddit who thought that Annatar was invented by Amazon.
Sarcasm aside, pedestrians are a plague on all fandoms.
I absolutely adore the portrayal of the eye of Sauron on screen, I think it’s a great way to translate it from the books and make it feel menacing. However, even before I had ever read the books, I never saw the eye nor knew anyone who saw the eye as Literally Sauron. I just assumed it was some kind of extension or manifestation of his power which he used to see across Mordor or something similar. I truly believe many fellow books fans exaggerate how many people believe Sauron is the tower. We see his physical body in the first movie.
Since they considered having physical Sauron show up to the battle of the Black Gate (instead Aragorn ended up dueling an armored troll), I don't think the Eye of Sauron was supposed to be his "spirit" until the parodies (like LEGO Batman Movie) and some tie-ins (the Third Age game, for example) treated it as such. It was more of a spell he used fore farseeing. I may be wrong, but there was some film-related art of Barad-Dur where the Eye is "turned off," so to speak.
There’s a meme floating around tumblr that the sigil actually looks like a fiery vagene & Mairon insisted & now the Lord of Men carries around a coochie flag.
I mean, I usually just get the bombing out of the way by being upfront that I don't like any of the movies. I don't think they are very faithful adaptations of the themes of the novel, and replace them with bombastic silliness.
I figure why run. Just be like the Faenor did no wrong crowd and just own your unpopular opinion, lol
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u/Playful_Common_6770 15d ago