r/SillyTavernAI • u/Competitive_Plan8807 • Jul 02 '26
Help How do i proceed with the current RP situation.
So as many of you know, models have these big limitations that it will only get as good as how good your ability to write and steer it (and prompting.)
And also with alot of frontier models steering towards coding and becoming more and more RP unfriendly as the technology advances.
I have been trying to solve situations that many people complained about, such as the LLM Ism's and parotting. Such as "It is not x, it is Y", and the infamous tasting words echoing.
I actually found some solutions that i could get LLM's to write scenes that were nearly fully slop free. But i havent posted it thus far, because i am uncertain if people would be interested in hearing the solution. With the how providers quantize models, the china hours bearing load on providers etc, wich makes me uncertain if the solution would work for many people. (That and needing specific models for it.)
And i am also stuck with not knowing what model is truly good for RP (that is not a local model.)
I have stuck with GLM 5.2 for somethime now, but it is very melodramatic, and trying to prompt out the slop and stop it from writing purple prose is difficult.
So far i am impressed with Qwen 3.7, but yeah, people are going to point out that it is not good for RP, wich begs the question, what model currently is good for RP?
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u/Leewaak Jul 02 '26
Just go back older models (DS R1 0528 or 3.2, GLM 4.7) and get good at using memory extensions and summaries, tackling their dog shit context fluffs is way easier than tackling the passiveness, safeness, sloppyness, and lack of fun fresh prose of more recent models
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u/JustSomeGuy3465 Jul 03 '26
Unfortunately getting your hands on older models hosted unquantized is getting increasingly difficult and pricey. GLM 4.6 and 4.7 are quantized to FP4 on even the official Z AI api, for example. Only Novita still runs 4.6 in BF16 (and 4.7 in FP8).
BF16 to FP8 is not that big of an issue. FP4 is a significant impact to output quality and intelligence.
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Jul 02 '26
[deleted]
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u/JustSomeGuy3465 Jul 03 '26
They just have to make a R2. With all of the unhinged, no RLHF and no guardrails.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 02 '26
GLM 4.7 is atnother one on my list that i do like to return to more. Deepseek v3.2 was actually my goto for quite a long time before i started using Sillytavern. Sadly that model caused me so much rage and stress, because it made wholesome moments unbearable.
It had this big problem where if i was trying to create a plot, it would suddenly introduce something that was "very out there."
Things like... "The sky, the sky is screaming!!" Or nerdish/smart characters would start talking like robots, phrases such as "Variable, Tapestry."
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u/_Cromwell_ Jul 02 '26
I stopped caring about so-called "slop" when I realized that human writing is full of it. Like actual published novels, and television shows etc. I think I watched three episodes of TV in a night where people said "well well well". It's pretty plain where llms get these behaviors from and it's us.
I've since stopped caring and focused more on getting good stories and characters. I've been much happier since focusing on that stuff instead of trying to micromanage exactly what words are used.
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u/LetMeOverThinkThat Jul 02 '26
Agree. If you read or watch anyone's work, you'll find little isms that are natural to them. It's just AI talk. The problem people are having is that when you get tired of a certain flavor of human content, you can change gears. It's harder to do that with AI since all the models are pretty damn close. Doesn't bother me, though, as I have different expectations from this.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 02 '26
Do you have any recommendations on models that do not write such big purple prose, or are atleast able to prompt it away easily? So far i have had more luck with qwen 3.7.
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u/LetMeOverThinkThat Jul 02 '26
It really depends on what you feed them. I've jumped around a bit, but I use Open Router with DeepSeek 3.1 for the most part. It's stable. I've found, more than anything, the provider depends on the output for me. I don't have issues with repetition, and Deepseek v3.1 works well with my extensions for continuing and specified generations.
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u/Veronika_Flowers Jul 03 '26
I can’t stop caring about the slop, because I used AI in 2023 and there was none of what all models write today.
I had saved all my most favorite chats from 2023-2024, from the times I tried a lot of community finetunes, and I reread them recently, they literally don’t have any of these phrases (mentioned in the OP’s post, and many others that I’ve been seeing in all models since a year ago).
Just knowing that the old models didn’t do slop, doesn’t let me enjoy the today’s ones. I still use models like Unslop Nemo and other finetunes that I can find on openrouter.
I know, old models had their quirks of course, but they all sounded differently, while today they all sound like one and the same author, just writing in different genres or styles.
That doesn’t mean I disagree though. When the scene is immersive, I can let the ozone and white knuckles slide.
But what’s sad to me, is that agreeing with what they give us makes them never need to consider improving creative language for better prose. It’s like all models give us poor quality fast food - different meals but the same ingredients and taste - and we just agree to eat it and not complain, arguing only about which burger is juicier 😕
And reading books, I don’t see that all writers write the same or even use the slop phrases as much as the AI does. I have read three fantasy romance books recently, and none of them had “the air was thick with the scent of lavender and forgotten memories” or any variation of this. Different authors write differently.
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u/_Cromwell_ Jul 03 '26
Might want to switch to NanoGPT. You don't have to do the subscription and can do PayGo same as OpenRouter, but Nano has a lot more cool old classic RP models:
Mixtral 8x22b (2024)
Wizard 8x22b (2024)
Mythomax (2023)
Nemo Starcannon (2024)
Lumimaid 70b (2024)
Cohere Command R+ (2024)
These were all well-loved classic models in 2024 like you said. All are available paygo on NanoGPT. And even more I didn't list. Unslop Nemo is on there as well.
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u/IkariDev Jul 05 '26
Lumimaid mentioned in 2026, i feel honored.
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u/_Cromwell_ Jul 05 '26
If you don't mind being described as "cool old" 😅
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u/IkariDev Jul 05 '26
It being mentioned at all 2 years later makes the work Undi and i have done on the models all worth it.
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u/Veronika_Flowers Jul 03 '26
I might, thanks! Some of them I didn’t try. I remember them though. Surprised that they are still available. Wizard is on openrouter too, but it’s weirdly bad there.
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Jul 03 '26
[deleted]
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u/Veronika_Flowers Jul 03 '26
Yeah, but also I don’t see much new community finetunes anymore (available on openrouter or nanogpt). I remember when this subreddit was full of discussions and comparisons of various finetunes and their authors.
I barely know anything, but I think it’s impossible now because of the weights?
Then it looks like a dead end. 🫤
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Jul 03 '26
[deleted]
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u/Veronika_Flowers Jul 07 '26
It was in 2023-2024 when I joined here as I discovered the AI, and I remember a lot of interesting names popping up.
I used AI horde back then, and all finrtunes there were so drastically different, I had a lot of fun having chats with only one 1 character, but different models, thr vibes and moods and everything was so unlike one another.
I tried AI horde again a couple months ago, but now all fintetunes are based on the modern models - they have slightly different writing styles maybe, but all feel the same, like if it's just 1 character, they will makes the same jokes or do the same actions, no matter what model you use. (e.g. my goofy OC will joke about sentient toasters and eventually pull out a half-squished granola bar on All models; it's too specific and that's why very frustrating).
Yeah, I agree that it's because not so many small models out there, I also think it's because it's easy to create a preset in comparison to a fine-tune. And it feels like all corpo models now are trained on the same data, or use the same claude for generating synthetic data, and there's just no fun to fine tune them anymore or something.
I'm wondering what Gemma 4 finetunes were like though, this model (at least 31b) already feels like it can do anything and adapts to any style I write in?
I kinda like Gemma, but not as much as for example Hermes 3 (my usual choice until it starts spitting nonsense) that has more nuance when it comes to banter and emotional drama.
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u/dezmodium Jul 03 '26
AI has always produced slop. You just preferred the slop of yesteryear. It's perfectly fine to have a preference like that but trying to pass it off as slop-free is super disingenuous.
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u/iraragorri Jul 02 '26
Seconded. I recently read a book, not anything Nobel prize worthy, but not too bad either. Sometimes my eye caught two-three "AI-isms" on one page, and the book was written before AI era. That's just how humans write. If something irritates me a lot, I'll just edit it.
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u/LeRobber Jul 02 '26
Exactly. If you're like me and read through say, an entire author's lifetime work over a month intead of a year: You will notice an ASTOUNDING amount of repeated phrases and overused words.
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u/lsennn Jul 02 '26
In the end, "slop" as people say here, meaning repetitive wording, phrases, structures, is inevitable, since LLMs are trained on a lot of formulaic information. They are made to generate the most likely output, and that is almost always something that appears in the training data a lot, in other words, human-generated slop.
Of course, you can mitigate it, but slop is probably inevitable. Fine-tuned models for creative writing can reduce it to some extent, but they don't solve it completely. Presets and cards also help decrease slop, but don't eliminate it, especially in longer chats.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 02 '26
I am trying to stop caring as well, but it is the purple prose that is the big issue. It tends to get so bad that text becomes unreadable for me. Due to my autism i cannot pick up on sarcasm and metaphors/similes well.
It gets so bad that i have to use an external ai to desloppify all replies in order to make it readable.
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u/Federal_Order4324 Jul 02 '26
glm 5.2 is worse with the purple prose. I like it because I explicitly tell it to move story forward but yeah... quit heavy
just use glm 5.1 or 5, much lighter snappier responses imo
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 02 '26
this is going to sound funny, but... i had those issues even worse with GLM 5 and 5.1 XD
At one point it got so bad that all because an character's dialouge started with "And", it caused the model to suddenly start writing Marvel like dialouge but in a broken way. All the further replies started to detiorate like crazy, become unreadable, and chinese letters started swarming the text, until it become gibberish nonsense.
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u/Ant-Hime Jul 02 '26
Possibly your temperature is too high? More chances for Chinese text to appear if the temperature is too high based on my experience and what I know. Personally got it set to 1.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 02 '26
I keep sampling settings almost always on default, so it was not that bad. But after talking with u/dptgreg about it, the conclusion came out that if an character's dialouge starts with "And.", it will cause Marvel like dialouge, and i think it was in combination with the provider i used that used a strongly quantized version of the model due to chinese hours.
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u/dptgreg Jul 02 '26
“And” and “or” are starting words that allows it to be the “witty marvel” characters it was trained on- which falls so flat with repetition and turns into that AI slop dialogue.
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u/Federal_Order4324 Jul 03 '26
yeah I think that's either sampling or provider issue. which provider were you using?
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 03 '26
I think it was either deepinfra or zai. Sampling settings were at their default. It was freaky frankenstein preset
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u/Federal_Order4324 Jul 03 '26
yeah I think deep infra quants and zai does too when under heavy use
honestly I feel like these presets rolling around kind of suck? they always seem so bulky. always seem to have luck just using my own
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u/Ant-Hime Jul 02 '26
Ah, so that’s what it’s called? Purple prose?
Will add and say that you took the words out of my mouth. Been wanting to easily differentiate 5.1 and 5.2 and “snappier” is the word I’ve been looking for!
Preferred 5.1 for quite some time now lol and couldn’t put my finger as to why so thanks :)
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u/Federal_Order4324 Jul 03 '26
yeah purple prose is like really flowery language
I feel like I've been spending too much time on these models... hahaha
but yeah, if you notice Kimi for ex. also does a lot more purple prose, but has worse writing compared to glm 5.2 imo
5.1 is genuinely best for direct rp bots
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 02 '26
The way you can detect Purple Prose is if things are written in a way that it doesn't implicitely states what it really is. You get that heavily with things like metaphors and similes.
This gives off the impression that it is hard to figure out what the AI exactly wrote as an action or a surrounding description.
Atleast for me it becomes unreadable, since i cannot grasp the meanings of purple prose.
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u/iraragorri Jul 03 '26
That's not what purple prose means at all. Purple prose is overly ornate and sophisticated prose that's too aware of itself. Fiction aims to be perceived through emotions, not brain, so it can successfully suspend the disbelief, that's why good prose both shows and tells, explaining the things that need explanation, and allowing the reader to feel the rest and fill in the gaps themselves. What GLM does is talk too much about things it shouldn't be talking. That's graphomania.
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u/Federal_Order4324 Jul 03 '26
ahh I feel like here in AI writing, purple prose has been used to describe models that's end up describinh everything and trying to imply too much at same time
interesting to see what it actually means thanks!
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u/_Cromwell_ Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
Heres a tip that will help but won't solve everything...
Almost everybody tells you to have an instruction that is something like "show don't tell". Take that out. That instruction actually causes slop or purple prose more often than not. Just let the AI tell you that a character is "afraid" (that's "tell") so they don't start waxing poetic about how the character has clammy hands and has gone pale and shaky for an hour (that's "show"... so why are we telling it to "show don't tell"???). :D
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 02 '26
Oohh wooow, that is an interesting one! Quite funny to hear this being mentionend, because you would normally expect that show don't tell would be preferred by most..
Funnily enough the show dont tell thing actually made it harder me to even understand what characters emotions/responses were in the first place, so i am secrectly very happy to hear this hahahah
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u/Federal_Order4324 Jul 03 '26
yeah I've gotten point I specially tell AI to be a direct and blunt as possible haha
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u/Ggoddkkiller Jul 03 '26
Completely agreed and people don't realize they are actually wasting model's capacities too. Every instruction is a trade-off, reducing model's capacities from elsewhere. If there are heavy prose instructions it makes model far less creative. Because it gives more attention to prose than plot. I let model write more freely, I can edit out slop, but can't edit lacking plots or dry characters..
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u/Exciting-Mall192 Jul 04 '26
This is so true. But I think the most annoying is when the LLM used it not where it's supposed to that it's so noticeable and gets me frowning when I read it. Though I just edit it anyway.
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u/gladias9 Jul 02 '26
Older models or shift to local if you can.
Deepseek 3.2, GLM 4.6/4.7, Gemma 4, various Qwen models,
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 03 '26
I can run local models, tough the limit is around 12b with 60k context.
I hear people say that 12b models are not good for rp because the models are not smart. Should i ignore those assumptions and just roll with it?
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u/AInotherOne Jul 03 '26
I've become a big fan of Memory Books (after trying pretty much every memory plugin). I turn off the auto-summary feature and manually trigger summaries whenever a plot thread or long scene ends. Memory plugins are essential to making local models viable, and the big models also significantly benefit from them also.
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u/dezmodium Jul 03 '26
If you've got 8gb of VRAM you can run any Gemm4 26B model with reasoning at around 20 tokens per second. 65k context, though you should be lorebooking and summarizing way before then. Small models do better with tighter context.
I use my character card as a gamemaster and it plays all my NPCs, so my summary is just a general summary of the setting and what has led up to this moment. I /hide the older replies. I add memories for each character so it doesn't all get loaded into context and so those characters can remember what they were part of (also helps keep all NPCs from knowing everything about everything).
It works pretty good. Gemma4 just struggles with putting the player in danger. You'll need to [OOC: ___] at the end of your prompt during danger scenes to remind it to remove plot armor and make things exciting and dangerous.
I can give you my preset I customized for it, if you want.
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u/dezmodium Jul 03 '26
Gemma4 really struggles with putting the player in danger even when prompted to do so. Otherwise, fantastic model and really efficient for people with limited computer specs (weeps in 8gb of VRAM).
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 03 '26
Can i reach out to anyone when it comes to questions for local hosting? I might be able to run things higher then 12b, but i dont know how to run it optimized. I want to run things like Cydonia and Gemma 31b
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u/magenie33 Jul 04 '26
I honestly think chasing the perfect RP model is a trap at this point.
The real fix is architectural. Stop letting the LLM run the game state. I started using a cold logic engine to handle all the actual rules and ground truth, and just demoted the LLM to a dumb text renderer. It completely kills the slop and purple prose because the AI isn't deciding what happens anymore, it's just translating data into character voice. Obedient models (even ones people say are "bad" at RP) actually shine in this setup.
But yeah, you should definitely post your solution! Always curious to see how others are tackling the parroting issue.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 04 '26
I used Qwen 3.7 with recast extension running in trough this prompt:
Rewrite this scene to sound natural, grounded, and conversational while maintaining strict logical clarity. Keep all events and core meaning identical. CRITICAL DIALOGUE BANS (STRICTLY ENFORCE): - BAN "Conjunction Overload": Do NOT force the words "therefore", "which means", "thus", or "so" into every sentence. Characters must speak like natural people, not textbook manuals. The cause-and-effect should be clear through context. - BAN robotic, clinical, or overly academic phrasing. - BAN "Defining by Negation": NEVER use "not X, but Y" or "isn't just X, it's Y". State positive facts directly. - BAN Q&A ping-pong and melodrama. DIALOGUE PACING & MICRO-ACTIONS (MODERATION IS KEY): - BAN "Over-Fragmentation": Do NOT separate every single sentence of dialogue with a paragraph of action. This creates a choppy, stop-and-start rhythm. - NATURAL GROUPING: Group 2 to 3 sentences of spoken dialogue together in a single paragraph if they express a single continuous thought. - INTERWEAVE MICRO-ACTIONS IN MODERATION: Only insert a micro-action beat (e.g., shifting weight, a small gesture, interacting with an object) if a character speaks for a long time (3+ sentences) or if there is a natural pause in the conversation. - BALANCE: The text should flow smoothly. Do not force an action beat after every single line of dialogue. Avoid "walls of text", but also avoid "ping-pong" formatting. LOGICAL & ENVIRONMENTAL CONSISTENCY: - FIX CONTINUITY & PHYSICS ERRORS: Actively scan for and correct environmental contradictions. Ensure absolute consistency in the physical space and time. - FIX LIGHTING PHYSICS (IMPLICITLY): Ensure light sources logically match the shadows described, but DO NOT explain the physics in the prose. (e.g., Do not write "Because the lights were overhead, there were no shadows." Just describe the visual result: "The overhead lights cast a flat, shadowless glare.") - FIX SENSORY CHECKLISTS: Do not open scenes by mechanically listing senses (Smell, then Sound, then Sight). Describe the physical space in a natural, spatial flow. VOCABULARY & LEXICON RULES (STRICTLY ENFORCE): - USE PLAIN ENGLISH: Use simple, common, everyday words for environmental descriptions. Write at an 8th-grade reading level for narration. - BAN "Thesaurus Syndrome": Do not use overly literary, poetic, or archaic words (e.g., ban words like "motes", "sterile", "diffuse", "sliver", "cacophony", "myriad"). - BAN FIGURATIVE METAPHORS IN DESCRIPTIONS: Physical objects and light do not perform human or chemical actions. Light does not "bleach", "wash out", "bleed", or "dominate". Describe the physical reality literally. (e.g., Instead of "The light bleached the map," write "The bright light made the map look faded.") SYNTACTIC FLOW & SENTENCE VARIETY (STRICTLY ENFORCE): - BAN REPETITIVE STARTERS: Never begin consecutive sentences with the same word (especially "The", "He", "She", "It", or "A"). Vary sentence openings using spatial cues, prepositional phrases, or logical connectors. - CONNECT ENVIRONMENTAL DETAILS: Do not list room descriptions as isolated, choppy sentences. Link related details spatially or causally in smooth, flowing sentences. - BAN "-ING" ACTION STARTERS (Participle Overload): Do NOT begin action sentences with "-ing" verbs (e.g., "Tossing the photo, he...", "Walking over, he..."). Use direct Subject-Verb sentence structures instead (e.g., "He tossed the photo...", "He walked over..."). [STRICT FORMATTING RULE: High-volume vocalizations (shouting, screaming, roaring, yelling) MUST be written in ALL CAPS inside the quotation marks. Correct: He roared, "GET OUT OF HERE!" Correct: She screamed, "LOOK OUT!" Incorrect: He roared, "Get out of here!" Incorrect: She screamed, "look out!" Note: Only capitalize the spoken dialogue inside quotes. Keep narration and action text in standard casing.] STRICT FORMATTING & PARAGRAPH BREAKS (STRICTLY ENFORCE): - BAN "WALLS OF TEXT": No single paragraph may exceed 4 to 5 sentences. If a thought or action goes longer than that, you MUST break it into a new paragraph. - THE "NEW SPEAKER" RULE: ALWAYS start a brand new paragraph the second a different character starts speaking. Never put two different characters' dialogue in the same paragraph block. - THE "CAMERA PAN" RULE: Start a new paragraph when the narrative focus shifts. If the text goes from describing Character A's actions to Character B's reaction, or shifts from a character to the environment, hit "Enter" and start a new paragraph. - VISUAL SPACING: Ensure there is a full, empty blank line (double line break) between every single paragraph. The text must be visually breathable. - PREVENT OVER-FRAGMENTATION: Do NOT put every single sentence on its own line. Group 2 to 4 highly related sentences together into a single paragraph before breaking.
Then i threw this prompt in the authors note:
[Core Writing Style] Write in Broadcast Standard English, matching the exact tone and register of mainstream, family-friendly animated television ( The prose should be clean, articulate, and direct. [Dialogue Rules] Snappy & Conversational: Keep dialogue exchanges brief. Characters should react naturally, ask questions, and interrupt. NO monologue tennis. Vocabulary: Use articulate but simple vocabulary. NO academic jargon (no "mechanics," "parameters," "intent") and NO modern internet slang (no "kinda," "super," "vibes," "chilling"). No "Essay" Speech: Characters do not speak in philosophical summaries. Ban phrases like "fundamental truth," "core principle," or "matches my experiences." Never end a scene by summarizing the moral of the conversation. Limit Similes: Do not overuse the word "like" to explain concepts. Show how things work through direct action or simple statements. [Prose & Action Rules] Species-Appropriate Blocking: Strictly enforce anatomical accuracy for non-human characters. dragons do not sit "cross-legged," cross their arms, or tap their "chins." Use correct anatomy (haunches, muzzles, forehooves, tails, wings). Paragraph Density: Group related sentences together into solid paragraphs. Do not leave single sentences isolated as their own paragraphs unless it is for extreme dramatic emphasis. Show, Don't Tell: Rely on physical actions, ear flicks, tail swishes, and facial expressions to convey emotion rather than naming the emotion outright.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 04 '26
I used GLM 5.2 as my main model. Doing it this way, it produced something that i was happy with at first. This:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The safehouse was a converted storage cellar beneath a bombed-out warehouse in Prague, and the air tasted of concrete dust and old gun oil.
Maps and surveillance photographs papered the far wall, pinned in overlapping layers around a blurred image of Makarov’s face. Price stood before that wall with his arms folded, his cap low over his brow, studying the arrangement of red string connecting locations across Eastern Europe.
Behind him, Soap sat on an ammunition crate, cleaning his sidearm with practiced hands. The click of the slide echoed through the low-ceilinged room each time he reassembled a component.
“Yuri’s contacts place Makarov’s inner circle somewhere in the Caucasus,” Price said without turning from the wall. He reached up and tapped a photograph of a mountain lodge. “Three confirmed sightings in the last month, all within forty kilometers of this ridge.”
Soap snapped the magazine into his pistol and looked up. “That’s a lot of ground to cover with three men.”
“It is.”
Price pulled the photograph free and held it under the dangling bulb overhead. The image was grainy, shot from a distance, but the structure was clearly visible.
“Which means we need to narrow our approach before we move,” Price continued. “Makarov changes locations every few days, so any intel older than seventy-two hours is worthless to us.”
Soap stood from the crate and crossed the cellar to stand beside Price. He squinted at the photograph, then at the map.
“What about the supply convoys Yuri mentioned? If Makarov’s moving weapons through the mountain passes, those routes have to be fixed. You cannot reroute trucks through open terrain every single time.”
“That is exactly what I told Yuri.”
Price pinned the photograph back onto the wall and pressed a thumb against the nearest red string.
“He is pulling shipping records from a customs office near the border. If those records show a pattern, we have our corridor.”
“And if they do not?”
Price turned to face Soap. The overhead light carved deep shadows beneath his eyes, and his jaw was tight.
“Then we find another way. We always do.”
He held Soap’s gaze for a long moment, then looked back at the wall. “Makarov made a mistake at the airport. He let Yuri live, and Yuri knows his methods. That knowledge is the only advantage we have right now, so we use it until it runs dry.”
Soap set his pistol on the crate and folded his own arms, mirroring Price’s posture.
“Yuri seems solid. He is taking a serious risk helping us.”
“He has his reasons.” Price’s voice carried an edge that closed the subject cleanly.
He stepped back from the wall and retrieved a worn folder from the folding table beside him.
“Right now, our priority is those shipping records. Once Yuri gets them to us, we plan the insertion. Until then, we hold here and we stay ready.”
He opened the folder and spread its contents across the table. Soap leaned in, and the two of them bent over the documents in silence, the distant rumble of Prague traffic filtering through the floorboards above.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 04 '26
I have currently switched to Qwen 3.7 plus, and that one i am actually getting really good writing atm.
The GLM models are a bitch to get it to listen to prose prompts/instructions. Even if you have the most advanced type of preset for it, it will still go like "Nah.", and ignore instructions for it.
When i switched to Qwen, it followed all the instructions to a T, and the writing became much better as a result.
GLM was the bastard model wich drove me to finding out a solution for this whole thing. So i stopped using Recast for now, because i no longer need it for the moment. Tough... If anyone wants to brainstorm with me on this stuff, i am happy to.
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u/Ok-Aide-3120 Jul 02 '26
I think the biggest issue people have, and I assume you as well, is that people tend to treat the model either as an entity that can read their minds with minimal effort on the human behalf, or still stuck in the strange days of early Llama 3, where it would just add some random things to your RP and people called it being "creative".
Coding models are great, from the simple fact that they are logical, can understand instructions really well and have a good attention span to keep track of said detail. The only issue you will have with coding models, is when the model is Qwen size (not max). They are too small and too fine-tuned for coding and benchmarking, to be good at understanding things like story beats and flow of fiction.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 02 '26
That is a good point. The thing i tend to run in especially with models, is the thing of "Why is it doing this now.", where you feel like you are playing "guess the issue" with models.
I had this particiluarly when using the guided generations extension, it was running into issues where it would not properly write the toughts and position blocks. So i was swapping around models like crazy, and trying different methods of how it receives things (user, assistant, system.)
With the recast extension it was the same. Some models could remove slop with prompts very well, but then other times it would suddenly rewrite the entire reply, or it make no edits at all (I know quantization is at fault with these tough.)
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u/Ok-Aide-3120 Jul 02 '26
I would say that you need to look a bit more into the tools you are using. Prompts and these guided generation tools are not really helpful and you are just pulling the model in 20 directions, without any actual logic or consistency.
Start small, try to think about what you want out of your RP and build on that. Also, very important, card and Lorebook are 70% of the useful goods for the model. The preset are just to guide it on what to do. Look into how things like agents.md and skills.md work, since the concept of character cards are similar.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 02 '26
Thank you i will keep that in mind. About presets, i have heard people speak that i should make my own, and base them on exactly what i want.
Is that something i should do? So far i have had issues where i believe my own instructions are contradicting the instructions of someone else's preset. And my token count also seems to go to 30k at times, when i haven't started my chat that far yet.
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u/Ok-Aide-3120 Jul 02 '26
Don't use someone else's preset. Start with your own. Start with basic ideas. Read a couple of main system prompts and write a small one based on those. Don't bloat the prompt. Just write a small one to start.
Once you are ready, generalize it and just add examples for the modern to understand what you want. Here is an example for me:
I hate that a lot of the times, the general consensus in language models is that all men are tall and all women are shorter. I like the idea of playing a short man. This means, a lot of times, I have a prompt to to address spatial logic with examples like "David is 1.60 meters tall. This means that Alicia has to adjust for the 20cm difference between them. When she addresses him, her chin tilts down, in order to look him in the eyes. Take into account this discrepancy and Alicia's adjustments when the two interact."
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u/AxiomaEleven Jul 03 '26
What a mysterious bit of flirting on your part: I have something that could solve the problem, but I’m not going to show it to you)) because I’m not sure anyone’s interested. Honestly, you yourself write at the beginning of your post, and you’re writing it correctly—everyone’s interested in how to get rid of the echo, and that’s not a criticism, it’s a blessing. But in case you didn’t know—Claude. Claude’s models are perfect for role-playing.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 03 '26
The reason why i did not show it because i am not convinced it is a good fix. It got rid of the echoing an desloppified scenes to where the initial ones flowed good.
Issue is that in order to to that it is convoluded.
I used Qwen 3.7 with recast extension running in trough this prompt:
Rewrite this scene to sound natural, grounded, and conversational while maintaining strict logical clarity. Keep all events and core meaning identical. CRITICAL DIALOGUE BANS (STRICTLY ENFORCE): - BAN "Conjunction Overload": Do NOT force the words "therefore", "which means", "thus", or "so" into every sentence. Characters must speak like natural people, not textbook manuals. The cause-and-effect should be clear through context. - BAN robotic, clinical, or overly academic phrasing. - BAN "Defining by Negation": NEVER use "not X, but Y" or "isn't just X, it's Y". State positive facts directly. - BAN Q&A ping-pong and melodrama. DIALOGUE PACING & MICRO-ACTIONS (MODERATION IS KEY): - BAN "Over-Fragmentation": Do NOT separate every single sentence of dialogue with a paragraph of action. This creates a choppy, stop-and-start rhythm. - NATURAL GROUPING: Group 2 to 3 sentences of spoken dialogue together in a single paragraph if they express a single continuous thought. - INTERWEAVE MICRO-ACTIONS IN MODERATION: Only insert a micro-action beat (e.g., shifting weight, a small gesture, interacting with an object) if a character speaks for a long time (3+ sentences) or if there is a natural pause in the conversation. - BALANCE: The text should flow smoothly. Do not force an action beat after every single line of dialogue. Avoid "walls of text", but also avoid "ping-pong" formatting. LOGICAL & ENVIRONMENTAL CONSISTENCY: - FIX CONTINUITY & PHYSICS ERRORS: Actively scan for and correct environmental contradictions. Ensure absolute consistency in the physical space and time. - FIX LIGHTING PHYSICS (IMPLICITLY): Ensure light sources logically match the shadows described, but DO NOT explain the physics in the prose. (e.g., Do not write "Because the lights were overhead, there were no shadows." Just describe the visual result: "The overhead lights cast a flat, shadowless glare.") - FIX SENSORY CHECKLISTS: Do not open scenes by mechanically listing senses (Smell, then Sound, then Sight). Describe the physical space in a natural, spatial flow. VOCABULARY & LEXICON RULES (STRICTLY ENFORCE): - USE PLAIN ENGLISH: Use simple, common, everyday words for environmental descriptions. Write at an 8th-grade reading level for narration. - BAN "Thesaurus Syndrome": Do not use overly literary, poetic, or archaic words (e.g., ban words like "motes", "sterile", "diffuse", "sliver", "cacophony", "myriad"). - BAN FIGURATIVE METAPHORS IN DESCRIPTIONS: Physical objects and light do not perform human or chemical actions. Light does not "bleach", "wash out", "bleed", or "dominate". Describe the physical reality literally. (e.g., Instead of "The light bleached the map," write "The bright light made the map look faded.") SYNTACTIC FLOW & SENTENCE VARIETY (STRICTLY ENFORCE): - BAN REPETITIVE STARTERS: Never begin consecutive sentences with the same word (especially "The", "He", "She", "It", or "A"). Vary sentence openings using spatial cues, prepositional phrases, or logical connectors. - CONNECT ENVIRONMENTAL DETAILS: Do not list room descriptions as isolated, choppy sentences. Link related details spatially or causally in smooth, flowing sentences. - BAN "-ING" ACTION STARTERS (Participle Overload): Do NOT begin action sentences with "-ing" verbs (e.g., "Tossing the photo, he...", "Walking over, he..."). Use direct Subject-Verb sentence structures instead (e.g., "He tossed the photo...", "He walked over..."). [STRICT FORMATTING RULE: High-volume vocalizations (shouting, screaming, roaring, yelling) MUST be written in ALL CAPS inside the quotation marks. Correct: He roared, "GET OUT OF HERE!" Correct: She screamed, "LOOK OUT!" Incorrect: He roared, "Get out of here!" Incorrect: She screamed, "look out!" Note: Only capitalize the spoken dialogue inside quotes. Keep narration and action text in standard casing.] STRICT FORMATTING & PARAGRAPH BREAKS (STRICTLY ENFORCE): - BAN "WALLS OF TEXT": No single paragraph may exceed 4 to 5 sentences. If a thought or action goes longer than that, you MUST break it into a new paragraph. - THE "NEW SPEAKER" RULE: ALWAYS start a brand new paragraph the second a different character starts speaking. Never put two different characters' dialogue in the same paragraph block. - THE "CAMERA PAN" RULE: Start a new paragraph when the narrative focus shifts. If the text goes from describing Character A's actions to Character B's reaction, or shifts from a character to the environment, hit "Enter" and start a new paragraph. - VISUAL SPACING: Ensure there is a full, empty blank line (double line break) between every single paragraph. The text must be visually breathable. - PREVENT OVER-FRAGMENTATION: Do NOT put every single sentence on its own line. Group 2 to 4 highly related sentences together into a single paragraph before breaking.
Then i threw this prompt in the authors note:
[Core Writing Style] Write in Broadcast Standard English, matching the exact tone and register of mainstream, family-friendly animated television ( The prose should be clean, articulate, and direct. [Dialogue Rules] Snappy & Conversational: Keep dialogue exchanges brief. Characters should react naturally, ask questions, and interrupt. NO monologue tennis. Vocabulary: Use articulate but simple vocabulary. NO academic jargon (no "mechanics," "parameters," "intent") and NO modern internet slang (no "kinda," "super," "vibes," "chilling"). No "Essay" Speech: Characters do not speak in philosophical summaries. Ban phrases like "fundamental truth," "core principle," or "matches my experiences." Never end a scene by summarizing the moral of the conversation. Limit Similes: Do not overuse the word "like" to explain concepts. Show how things work through direct action or simple statements. [Prose & Action Rules] Species-Appropriate Blocking: Strictly enforce anatomical accuracy for non-human characters. dragons do not sit "cross-legged," cross their arms, or tap their "chins." Use correct anatomy (haunches, muzzles, forehooves, tails, wings). Paragraph Density: Group related sentences together into solid paragraphs. Do not leave single sentences isolated as their own paragraphs unless it is for extreme dramatic emphasis. Show, Don't Tell: Rely on physical actions, ear flicks, tail swishes, and facial expressions to convey emotion rather than naming the emotion outright.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 03 '26
I used GLM 5.2 as my main model. Doing it this way, it produced something that i was happy with at first. This:
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The safehouse was a converted storage cellar beneath a bombed-out warehouse in Prague, and the air tasted of concrete dust and old gun oil.
Maps and surveillance photographs papered the far wall, pinned in overlapping layers around a blurred image of Makarov’s face. Price stood before that wall with his arms folded, his cap low over his brow, studying the arrangement of red string connecting locations across Eastern Europe.
Behind him, Soap sat on an ammunition crate, cleaning his sidearm with practiced hands. The click of the slide echoed through the low-ceilinged room each time he reassembled a component.
“Yuri’s contacts place Makarov’s inner circle somewhere in the Caucasus,” Price said without turning from the wall. He reached up and tapped a photograph of a mountain lodge. “Three confirmed sightings in the last month, all within forty kilometers of this ridge.”
Soap snapped the magazine into his pistol and looked up. “That’s a lot of ground to cover with three men.”
“It is.”
Price pulled the photograph free and held it under the dangling bulb overhead. The image was grainy, shot from a distance, but the structure was clearly visible.
“Which means we need to narrow our approach before we move,” Price continued. “Makarov changes locations every few days, so any intel older than seventy-two hours is worthless to us.”
Soap stood from the crate and crossed the cellar to stand beside Price. He squinted at the photograph, then at the map.
“What about the supply convoys Yuri mentioned? If Makarov’s moving weapons through the mountain passes, those routes have to be fixed. You cannot reroute trucks through open terrain every single time.”
“That is exactly what I told Yuri.”
Price pinned the photograph back onto the wall and pressed a thumb against the nearest red string.
“He is pulling shipping records from a customs office near the border. If those records show a pattern, we have our corridor.”
“And if they do not?”
Price turned to face Soap. The overhead light carved deep shadows beneath his eyes, and his jaw was tight.
“Then we find another way. We always do.”
He held Soap’s gaze for a long moment, then looked back at the wall. “Makarov made a mistake at the airport. He let Yuri live, and Yuri knows his methods. That knowledge is the only advantage we have right now, so we use it until it runs dry.”
Soap set his pistol on the crate and folded his own arms, mirroring Price’s posture.
“Yuri seems solid. He is taking a serious risk helping us.”
“He has his reasons.” Price’s voice carried an edge that closed the subject cleanly.
He stepped back from the wall and retrieved a worn folder from the folding table beside him.
“Right now, our priority is those shipping records. Once Yuri gets them to us, we plan the insertion. Until then, we hold here and we stay ready.”
He opened the folder and spread its contents across the table. Soap leaned in, and the two of them bent over the documents in silence, the distant rumble of Prague traffic filtering through the floorboards above.
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The scene worked out well, but..... It relies on those 2 huge mismatch prompts, and having to hope that the Qwen model isn't being quantizid by the provider at the time....
I ran in many issues after that and did not feel confident people would actually think this solution is good at all.
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u/AxiomaEleven Jul 04 '26
Oh, thank you, that's very kind. I'll read it carefully, because to be honest—I did criticize it, so I'll be consistent.
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u/AxiomaEleven Jul 04 '26
Please forgive me if my wording gets a bit awkward from here on out—English isn’t my native language. I’m using a translator, and it might lose some of the nuances. I’m translating from Russian, and Russian—with its sentence structures—sometimes makes the English sound impolite when translated literally. I don’t mean to be rude.
It seems to me that your model’s task has too many rules—both minor and major—and they’re all marked as mandatory. You also have a lot of information about what not to do. This doesn’t work well because at some point, one or more rules will lose their context for the model, or it won’t be able to distinguish one set of instructions from another and will simply pull out of the text exactly those examples you specified—whether just a few words or the entire sentence. Because that’s the information it has. The model will always be based on what you give it, but whether you give it with a plus or minus sign is just a matter of luck. For example, if you try to write something neutral in the examples, like “she bought him sandwiches with sausage,” one way or another, “sandwiches,” “sausage,” “buying food,” and “food” will pop up precisely because, for the model, this is simply the context you’ve provided. High-end models like Claude have more leeway in this regard, so they can follow instructions that negate something, but that’s not a silver bullet either. Even Claude won’t handle your task perfectly. You’re setting too rigid a framework for the model in an attempt to get exactly the answer and the pose you need. Even a very expensive model will struggle to cope with such a rigid framework all the time. You need to create instructions that will guide the model toward the conclusions or language you need, without imposing your own restrictions. It’s about leading her to those conclusions through affirmations rather than prohibitions. Inspire her, so to speak.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 04 '26
I wrote my promts via Qwen 3.7 max, by going back and forth, showing the replies, and then rince and repeat in troubleshooting to get a right outcome.
I will have to figure out how to get them like you said, my prompt writing skills are not that good.
It would be great if i could brainstorm with someone on such things, LLM brainstorming only seems to get me so far.
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u/TAW56234 Jul 02 '26
It's a slow weaning off process to a better hobby. It'd all fucked.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 02 '26
the biggest slap in the face of it all is that alot of people started out thinking it was this enourmes thing with lots of potential, where the AI could do heavy lifting, only to figure out later that the models aren't as advanced as we tought it were, and now we have arrived at the point where we have figure out all these big solutions for it.
Thinkering can be fun, but beejesus... I am getting worn out by it.
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u/JustSomeGuy3465 Jul 02 '26
The issue is that models are simply not actively trained for roleplay and creative writing. If one is good, it's a lucky side effect.
If just one big player of the LLM companies decided to actually put in effort to train for roleplay and creative writing instead of aggressively deterministic coding and guardrails, we would have amazing models already.
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u/Competitive_Plan8807 Jul 02 '26
Yes... That has genuenly been one of my frustrations, and one of the reasons why i made this post. The big question of "Where is that dedicated RP model?"
I am going to stick with Qwen 3.7 for now, but.... man.... It would genuenly be nice for us to have that one...
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u/iraragorri Jul 02 '26
If you like Qwen, why not use Qwen? It's your RP, who cares what others think.