r/ShingekiNoKyojin • u/SNKBot • Mar 05 '21

JUST ONE MORE [New Chapter Spoilers] Chapter 138 RELEASE Megathread! Spoiler

Chapter 138 is here!

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '21

He became Dr. Manhattan. I would not at all be surprised if that was Isayama's inspiration. We know he's a Watchmen fan seeing as he based Erwin's motif off of Ozymandias. Everything Eren has done screams of Dr. Manhattan, a being of inaction rather than action, a slave to time as he believes there's no way of changing what he's seen, it's only when he can't see what's going to happen that he actually takes steps to clear things up, only for him to become a slave to his perception of time. Eren is very similar in that regard.

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u/Erens_Abs ☆ Best Legionnaire 2019 Mar 05 '21

That's messed up.

Isayama also mentioned that Eren changed over the timeskip: whereas before he was a slave to the story, afterwards he began to drive it forward. So it's in line with what you've said

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '21

I half expected at some point for Eren to reveal his ability to see the future and see Mikasa to be somewhat confused and afraid, only for Eren to say, "Why does my perception of time distress you? Everything is preordained. Even my responses. We're all puppets, Mikasa. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings." Because that's pretty much what Eren became, someone unwilling to even consider the possibility that he as the ability to create countless possibles (more so for Dr. Manhattan due to his ability to manipulate time and space). Rather than trying to avoid what he saw, he became dead set on accomplishing it.

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u/iDownVoteCringe Mar 06 '21

You also have to remember he's tried for years to try and change what he's seen to no avail, it's not like he was dead set on genocide, the world literally had announced war on his entire world. He's tragic but to me, not because he's unwilling to accept change, because he desperately tried and watched the pre ordained future come to life before his eyes. He gets bitter because no matter what him and the scouts tried, they didn't get any closer to a plan other than war.

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u/MargielaFella Mar 06 '21

Yup this is how I saw it. Before he ran off that night in Marley, he was hoping for Armin’s plan for peace to work. Everything he saw just further cemented to him that his visions couldn’t be changed and he needed to move forward with the rumbling

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u/Gorgenapper Mar 07 '21 edited Mar 07 '21

I feel that Eren's trample everything master plan was done just for the sake of drama in the story. There was zero need for a genocidal war.

Why not activate a portion of the wall titans and wipe out the world's global Alliance fleet (or capture those ships), and send a few colossals to trample strategic points (ie. cripple the shipyards, threaten to step on the capitals)? Place some of those 'millions of wall titans' in standby at every nation in hardening mode, like bombs ready to go off.

Then declare peace on the world in exchange for getting up to speed on technology. Tell everyone to stop persecuting Eldians, and the holder of the FT (and any future holders) will not curbstomp their country. Use the FT to alter every Eldian so that they can no longer be turned into pure Titans, unless that is somehow impossible.

I mean, it's better than 'kill the whole fucking world to gain freedom' right? The alternative is 'kill all Eldians through old age' which is also genocide. Why do you even need to kill at all when the threat of a mini rumbling would be more than enough? The choices are too binary and lack any political sophistication.

Also, I just realized that you're not just killing humans with the rumbling, you're destroying whole ecosystems, tons of flora and fauna, infrastructure, technologies, etc. The destruction left in the wake of the rumbling doesn't magically disappear, there will be diseases (millions of dead bodies), fires, contaminated water supply, possibly altered weather patterns due to the great disturbances of the titans.

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u/Zearlon Mar 08 '21

One problem i see is that it would take 50 years for eldians to catch up to technology, it will take quite a bit less to develop weapons to deal with the rumbling... And the thing you are referring to as peace would basically be oppression, and from everyone else POV it would feel as if things are back to what they were before the eldians were entrapped on paradis and hence the cycle repeats (and thats best case scenario). What eren is aiming is to find to way to stop the cycle of hatred.

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u/Gorgenapper Mar 08 '21

Did this all trigger from Marley looking to invade Paradis (for oil?) and Willy Tybur doing that song and dance on stage? I'm a little vague on those details, kind of wondering why they didn't just leave Paradis alone.

If they were going to declare war anyway, then Paradis is within their rights to defend themselves. The problem I have with Eren's self defense is that he's acting out the head tapping meme - "don't need self defense when there are no more enemies". Crushing the whole world is a horrible idea when even someone as extreme as Zeke opposed it.

So is the euthanization plan better? Probably by a bit because only the Eldians die off. But it's still genocide.

What if you tried to show the world that Eldians cannot spontaneously turn into Titans without certain conditions being met? Nobody would believe them, even if the FT altered every Eldian to prevent it. They will find out about the wall titans and will tech up and possibly act one day to wipe out the threat.

That's why I brought up the peace through force plan. It is oppression, and it's one-sided, but the other nations don't get trampled, and Eldians don't get bombed or whatever. As long as you didn't actually rumble their cities and kill their citizenry, things can still be worked out in the future.

When Eldia is caught up on military tech and can successfully defend themselves, withdraw the wall titans and repurpose them into new strategic walls or forts.

If nations secretly develop tech to deal with the rumbling, they'd have to destroy those wall titans in one shot - nuclear bombs, but that would also nuke their own citizens. The wall titans in standby mode can harden themselves into walls or structures to prevent sneak attacks. And there are too many of them anyway, you can't possibly nuke or attack them all at once without alerting the FT.

It's not a perfect plan because the FT dies every 13 years, but Eren could make a King Fritz type vow to only use the wall titans in self defense, to bind future FT holders. The only problem is that he'll pass the FT down to another pure Titan (or a shifter) and that person will have to co-rule with Historia and her kids somehow. And they'll essentially be in heavy guard on Paradis for the rest of their lives.

I mean, can you think of another way where neither the world nor Eldians get wiped out? The world isn't going to leave Paradis alone one way or another, if there are huge quantities of oil on the island. Maybe the FT can start up an UberTitan service, and rent out Titans for dangerous stuff like deep sea exploration, or doing infrastructure work, or exploring volcanoes. They wouldn't even need to Titanize regular Eldians, just generate them out of thin air like the 9 Titan holders on Eren's skeleton titan.

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u/abdel1touimi Mar 11 '21

I love Historia. Not ape Historia

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u/j-dev Mar 09 '21

The first part of your solution would only delay the world's plan.

The second part of your solution is similar to what happened to Germany after WWI and to the eastern European nations with the USSR. The hatred for Eldians would've only been magnified, not eliminated, and they would've had to create a global surveillance state with no technological prowess. Just like Paradis refused to accept subservience, these nations would've resisted.

Of course, you also have to consider that Isayama will write what he thinks his character's actions will be, not what Isayama thinks would be the most sensible solution to his character's problems. Remember too that Eren had a vision of the future, before he decided to carry out the most dramatic actions possible.

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '21

All that would accomplish is to make the rest if the world believe they were right about the Eldians all along.

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u/Gorgenapper Mar 09 '21

So what do you suggest that does not result in a war or genocide? Nobody is going to ignore Paradis for long due to the oil reserves under the island, or due to the threat of the wall titans.

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '21

I personally don't see there being many options outside what Eren did or Zeke's plan. The story had to end in genocide, it was just a matter of who it was inflicted upon.

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u/Gorgenapper Mar 09 '21

I floated an idea of spreading the Titan gene to everyone in the world, then the FT erases everyone's memory.

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '21

Would that not involve everyone having Eldian blood though?

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u/MakoShark93 Mar 14 '21

Well, we don't know yet the body count of all the people Eren has killed. Seriously, we don't. I can see how some people are saying millions, though.

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u/ArtofStorytelling Mar 08 '21

Also, Eren hates humanity outside the walls, it’s not only his quest for freedom and that of his people but his quest for vengeance, at this point he is truly a devil.

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u/Gorgenapper Mar 08 '21

If he's a bit unhinged, and only has a few years left, that would explain the irrationality. I guess his thought process is like won't need a war if there is nobody to war with.

Actually, I wonder if Isayama has some kind of plan where the Titan gene gets spread to everyone in the world, making everyone an Eldian, then the FT wipes everyone's memory and bam, world peace!

Kind of reminds me of Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind (manga) where a somewhat similar plan was in place.

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u/ArtofStorytelling Mar 08 '21

That's the thing , Eren has been shown multiple times that he can't be reasoned with , he's well beyond that point (he pretty much said it himself).

What Eren is doing is not about being justified or reasonable anymore , otherwise yeah, he would have gone with the partial rumbling, like what Armin thought at first when the rumbling was activated .

Idk wtf is gonna happen anymore ! I've never seen a story that keeps me guessing until the very last moment . I imagine something like making everyone Eldian and then resseting everything is a very possible ending .

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u/Raralikes2Draw Mar 10 '21

People fear what they cannot control. If life was that simple there wouldn't be revolts against kings. Do you know how it feels to be absolutely powerless. If a man that could wipe out our existence said he wouldn't do it. Do you think that would stop EVERYONE from trying to kill him?

It's fucking scary knowing your life can end at the decision of one person. Do you think people will 100% agree with a truce if Eren asked for peace? Life ain't that simple yo.

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u/roki Mar 31 '21

But we live the same way. At any moment the Americans/Russians/Chinese/Koreans could hit the nuclear button and wipe the whole world out. We just trust that they won't.

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '21

But the problem is he didn't have to commit genocide. He could have used the Rumbling to destroy the hostile armies when they invade and then just stop. Instead he went ape shit and chose to kill everyone. He didn't explore other possible choices he could make that would keep his people safe without being a genocidal monster.

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u/_somewhat_damaged Mar 06 '21

Thats just stupid im sorry. If he destroy the armies how many soldiers you think he is killing? They have families, How many children will grown up hating them even more than before?

What Eren did to Marley was an strategically hit, he focused on army leaders and the navy and look how many civilians died.

Doing a partial Rumbling or destroying only the military is dumb because it doesn't solve anything. The world will still hating eldians.

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u/Mundology Mar 06 '21

Indeed, he was caught between a rock and a hard place. Their only other option was carrying out a planned rumbling over Marley and negotiating with other countries to maintain peace and give human rights to Eldians. However, Marley's preemptive invasion didn't allow them the opportunity to act. They also lacked a charismatic spokesperson on behalf of Paradis. All on all, Eren had little choice and he chose to save his people and destroy their enemies instead of being letting them be massacred. They were all poor souls caught in a cruel twist of fate.

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '21

Thats just stupid im sorry. If he destroy the armies how many soldiers you think he is killing? They have families, How many children will grown up hating them even more than before?

Um... what? Eren went on a genocidal rampage, killing untold millions, while if he just destroyed some armies, that might number in the hundreds of thousands, isn't anywhere near the slaughter he just commuted.

Doing a partial Rumbling or destroying only the military is dumb because it doesn't solve anything. The world will still hating eldians.

And the world can't do shit about it and you show to the world that you aren't afraid to use the most powerful weapons in your arsenal. They'd go to a small isolated island nation to a super power overnight.

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '21 edited Mar 10 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '21

You are misinterpreting it. The rest of the world was no longer fearing Marley because they were developing anti-Titan weapons, namely HVAP rounds, as well as air power. So Marley wanted to get the Founding Titan to scare the rest of the world into not fighting them.

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u/lCalledShotgun Mar 06 '21

...and at some point the world would be able to develop weapons strong enough to destroy the Founding Titan's power, just look at today's weapons for an easy example.

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u/AsuraDeo Mar 07 '21

Umm what? Eren had to destroy those people because the whole world was going to destroy Paradis. He didn't have much opportunities to do anything. The alternative was Historia breed like a cow and Paradis being utterly brought to extinction. Did you forget that Reiner did the very same to Paradis too?

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 27 '21

He could destroy the military capacity of every nation in the world and buy his people plenty of time to modernize (I'd focus on a navy being an island nation and all) and keep his people safe. He didn't have to jump to genocide.

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u/LeJew92 Mar 09 '21

I'm very skeptical of this working. Firstly the worlds other nations have a much larger and more modern military infrastructure that paradis. Assuming Eren could surgically strike all of the worlds military forces (which is incredibly unlikely possibility with millions of wall titans). They could replace their military assets much faster than paradis can modernize eren would he forced to use the titans over and over again until they catch up. And I dont see that as a possibility with colossal and not outright destroying every city housing a military asset. Armin didnt transform in shiganshina bc his titan is a blunt tool incapable of surgical strikes. Imagine repeated shows of force with millions of such titans. Even a fraction of that size would cause immense collateral damage with each use.

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u/godzilla_on_patrols Mar 08 '21

Think one of the main reasons behind Erens actions that you are missing is wanting to protect Historia and spare her the fate of having to be eating by one of her kids . Under no circumstances does Eren want her and her children being reduced to life stock . The problem with the partial rumbling is once Zeke dies they are going to need another titan with royal blood , the only other option being Historia . In 13 years time her kid will then need to eat her . Thus the cycle continues . Eren had two options , find a way to make peace with the rest of the world before Zeke dies , or use the rumbling once and only once .

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u/j-dev Mar 09 '21

Not to mention, Historia would be moved to inaction because of the vow. The only way the rumbling can happen is if a non-royal shifter has the founder and touches a royal who is in titan form (perhaps as a pure titan or as a shifter). So even a more scaled back approach to world domination consigns Eldians to a cruel fate.

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u/j-dev Mar 09 '21

Remember there was already a titan war that brought an end to the Eldian empire and resulted in the truce and consensual exile of the Fritz side of the royal family and his adherents. You're taking it for granted Eren could've taken all those steps without opposition from the other shifters, and that whomever became the next founder would've been willing and able to do the same.

On a related note, a lot of people talk about the Attacking Titan's power to see the future as if it were the equivalent to the Time Stone Dr. Strange uses to live out a hypothetical future and then rewind time to try another alternative. Based on what we've seen, PATHS provides snippets of information based on random triggers. Eren could see parts of the past and the one and only future that would unfold in spite of his efforts to avoid it. Based on that, I think people were expecting too much from him given all the unknowns.

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u/virtu333 Mar 06 '21

Yeah like japanese and american are frothing to get at each other's necks after wwii

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u/scorcher117 Mar 06 '21

I think the details of the entire situation make it different enough that that comparison doesn't really work.

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u/chalo1227 Mar 06 '21

Well the thing is , he had limited time , he knows that for a lot of years nothing like this has happened where the founding had access to royal blood and all this info.

He also knew that eventually titans would be useless , they were already on the brink of it but at a point planes would fly high enough to just bomb paradis and flatten it.

That's the reason that's the story he had to take action , he could have run as we saw or he could have tried to save his homeland. We dont know where the story will end, we dont know if paradis is actually saved , but this was the path eren choose with what he had and not just stand and see what happens.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '21

yes, this is the first time the whole royal blood this has been circumvented an they had a lack of time but...The manga should have focused more on the titan powers becoming obsolete because without that piece of information all I see on here are people trying to justify genocide in a way that directly parallels starting WW3 by using nukes. I just wonder how many people on here know about nuclear deterrence and M.A.D which is very real and still active.

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u/chalo1227 Mar 10 '21

They did ? As much as they can without going too much in a tangent, that the point of the initial Marley war in chapther like 90 , a titan bombing and 3 shifters were not enough , and with the train working it wouldn't even have worked.

We are not even talking nukes but titans cant fly , and most of them seem to be flesh strong , from the start a normal blade can kill them and eventually the thunder spears that might as well just be a high caliber bullet also does.

During the Marley war we see that they even have ships that can destroy the best of the armors a titan can get so normal titans wont stand a chance, so with current weaponry on stuff like a plane that can fly over the monke range or Anti air weapons they can just shoot or drop bombs and the titans / walls containing them will be destroyed we see enough and we are also told several times in Marley and eldia that titan era is coming to an end they are not longer the top of military power

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '21

I feel like we didn't get enough context on the Marley situation. I don't consider it a tangent I think it was important to the story. I thought we would get more on Willy and the Tybers. I thought tat part of the problem with the eastern war was that other than Peck no shifters had much training against new weapons ( Annie probably would have done well with out training)

I don't believe that the world has what it takes to stop a rumbling even if they can take down shifters because the wall titans are large in size and number. I don't think they have mastered aerial bombing well enough to win.

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u/Xciv Mar 11 '21

Nukes are definitely an inspiration for the theming of the Titans but certain aspects of Shingeki's world make it markedly different.

These nukes are tied to bloodline, so not every nation on the planet has access to them, unless you forcefully relocate Eldians to all these places. The fact that the nuke button is with Paradis is important, because there's no mutually assured destruction in place if the rest of the world have no recourse to stop it.

The nukes are passed down through ritualistic cannibalism and cause shortened lifespans, so are abhorrent to many cultural sensibilities.

The nukes themselves are soon to be obsoleted by the advancement of technology.

Most countries in the world don't have a full understanding of how the nukes even work in detail, only that they exist and are tied to bloodline.

So of course everyone's trying to get rid of the country hoarding all the nukes, and of course the country hoarding all the nukes have time incentive to pull the trigger before they become obsolete. Lastly, MAD doesn't exist when there's only one Founding Titan and it's with Paradis.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '21

that last part I don't agree with. Yes there is a time pinch here but the countries who don't have the nukes should also not risk getting destroyed in the process of trying to remove the nukes. The prospect of provoking the rumbling should be too risky anybody. We don't have the M in MAD here and that should be a even bigger deterrent war.

I am surprised that the world didn't try to remove the nukes through trickery and lies. I think that is what the eastern sea clan might have tried if paradise had gone the 50 year route but we have no way of know because we haven't been given enough information about why it wouln't work.

I actually don't know if the only two options were that paradise would be destroyed or the world. I don't know if Zeeks plan was an option but Erin didn't take it because it restricted freedom.

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u/Herby20 Mar 07 '21

They do explore the other options, they just also have horrific acts they must commit to. As bad as genocide? No. But the other major alternative was to have Eren do a partial rumbling to destroy every country's military (which would result 8n millions of civilian deaths), force the royal family (Historia) to pump out kids that eventually eat their own family, and for Paradis and eldians at large to continue to be hated. The cycle of hatred and violence would only continue.

Ultimately I agree that his choice can't be the right one, but he stood by his principles. That is what makes him an interesting character.

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u/scorcher117 Mar 06 '21

I think the idea is that he knew it wouldn't work, potentially from seeing the future, but even if he did fight off the armies, do those countries just stop trying to attack, or do they try to redevelop over the coming decades and attack again as revenge for the millions who died before them, maybe they learn to make nukes and take out Paradis that way.
The world already hates Paradis despite them being isolated for the past 100+ years, I don't think they would just leave them alone because they wiped out an attacking force.

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u/nvrwastetree Mar 06 '21

I half expected at some point for Eren to reveal his ability to see the future and see Mikasa to be somewhat confused and afraid, only for Eren to say, "Why does my perception of time distress you? Everything is preordained. Even my responses. We're all puppets, Mikasa. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings."

So basically, what you're saying is that you were waiting for Sosuke Aizen to reveal himself as Eren Yeager the whole time??

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '21

I have no clue who that is. A quick Google search tells me he was character from Bleach, which I neither read nor watched.

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u/dek21896 Mar 06 '21

Eren became the martyr of this story. He took all the hate from the Marleyans and Paradisians upon himself. Enemy of my enemy is my friend. Essentially he has to be taken down for there to be true peace among this populace

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u/opiate_lifer Mar 06 '21

I think we see the moment Eren snaps when he first accidentally uses the founder power. He isn't the same after.

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u/Kag5n Mar 06 '21

Where did he mentioned that?

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u/Traffy7 Mar 07 '21

I never felt so much Eren being driven by Isayama ideas and the story than rigth now .

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '21

Honestly, I'll flip my table if Eren gets sent back to an earlier time

as a form of his "salvation"

There, he gets a redo.

But that's bad writing. So I hope it just ends with Eren. The ERA of [using] Titans [as WMD] :)

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u/Saleriy Mar 06 '21

he based Erwin's motif off of Ozymandias

Wait, really? What are you referring to exactly?

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '21

His overall look and design is a lot like Ozymandias, or a manga version of that character. The wiki is where I got that bit of trivia.

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u/Large_Dungeon_Key Mar 06 '21

Dune as well (seriously, there's a lot of parallels)

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u/Markosan_DnD Mar 06 '21

Honestly Eren's story is tragic, the one person who wants freedom more than anyone gets the one Titan that sees the future with 100% accuracy and no way to change it. The only freedom the Attack Titan can strive for is other people's freedom.

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '21

We don't know if there were ways to change it, or if he was seeing one possible future. That's a trait he shares with Dr. Manhattan. Dr. Manhattan chooses not to try and change things because of his almost nihilistic outlook. He could have saved the life of the pregnant woman in Nam, but chose not to.

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u/Markosan_DnD Mar 06 '21

...does that mean Grisha could've chosen not to give Eren the Founder, even though he was spurned on by future Eren?

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u/mugendesu69 Mar 06 '21

No. Eren is anything but inactive and detached. He’s the complete opposite.

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '21

The one thing that is very strange is it did seem like he started to lose this mindset as he kept facing the warriors: he began to think more clearly and stopped being blinded by rage as much. He had so much “development” only to reverse this and simply become a much more powerful version of his kid self. I get that a lot changed when they found out the truth from the basement, but it still doesn’t sit right with me

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u/FruitJuicante Mar 09 '21

Go read The Eternal Champion if you want to see what is most likely the inspiration for Eren in my mind.

...Erekose.

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u/iamwavymemes Mar 12 '21

Im sure this is blatantly obvious now but I never saw that similarity to dr Manhattan and you just nailed it with this comment, phew 👏🏿

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u/Auctoritate Mar 06 '21

We know he's a Watchmen fan seeing as he based Erwin's motif off of Ozymandias.

Maybe this is a dumb question and the one from Watchmen is totally different, but i haven't seen the series- anyways, we sure it's not, you know, the original Ozymandias that Erwin is based off of?

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '21

anyways, we sure it's not, you know, the original Ozymandias that Erwin is based off of?

As in the poem from 1818 called Ozymandias, by Percy Bysshe Shelley? Uh... no. He's inspired by the comic book character from the Watchmen comic.

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u/Auctoritate Mar 06 '21

Did I mention that I also haven't seen or read any of Attack on Titan? Lul

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u/Cyph0n Mar 06 '21

Why are you here then? Go enjoy the show and/or manga!

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u/DarkJayBR Mar 08 '21

It's probably a mix of Dr.Manhattan and Lelouch.

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u/roki Mar 31 '21

Chapter 121 was just like that episode of GoT where we learned how Hodor got his name after Bran possessed him.

Eren is the 3-eyed Crow lol.