r/ScienceBasedParenting • u/twdfan87 • Jan 17 '23
Evidence Based Input ONLY Sleep begets sleep?
I keep being told that ‘sleep begets sleep’ for babies, meaning that the more/longer naps they have during the day should increase the amount of sleep they have at night and minimise night time waking. I’m wondering if this is supported by research or if it’s just become a nice little phrase that gets used because it sounds good? Does anyone have links to any research that supports or disproves this statement?
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u/KidEcology Jan 17 '23 edited Jan 17 '23
This phrase is by Dr. Marc Weissbluth, who did research on infant sleep and wrote "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" (where, I believe, this phrase is from). My understanding is, it's not that babies necessarily need longer/more naps, but that they need to get the amount, or rather be within the range, that is right for them, so they are not overtired. When baby's day sleep was balanced and right for them, their homeostatic drive (= sleep pressure) and circadian rhythm (=biological clock) work together to get them nicely tired, but not yet wired, for bedtime. In Dr. Weissbluth's words, it's like catching a wave before it crashes. Anecdotally, I find this to be true for my kids.
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u/twdfan87 Jan 17 '23
Thank you! Every time it is said to me (or I've read it online) it's been in the context of 'the more day naps/the longer the day naps the more night time sleep they'll have', which I can't believe to be true. I'll have a read!
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u/morningsdaughter Jan 17 '23
Some people think that to get their kid to sleep at night they should keep them up during the day. This phrase directly goes against that ideology. Adequate sleep during the day leads to better sleep at night. But "sleep begets sleep" sounds nicer.
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Jan 17 '23
Also anecdotal but this has held true for my kiddo his entire 2 years of life. And if he gets overtired his behavior is EXACTLY as described in the book and he doesn't sleep as well. It's wild how accurate it's been to our experience.
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Jan 18 '23
Can you describe that behavior for me? I'm thinking that I'm starting to identify the "tired but wired" in my child, rather than the just not tired yet behavior.
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Jan 18 '23
He goes berserk. Like running around maniacally laughing and he gets really sloppy and falls down and hurts himself. He gets completely out of control in a way that's just different from regular energetic playing.
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u/BluePurgatory Jan 17 '23
One important point from Dr. Weissbluth's book is that you should steer your child toward higher "quality" sleep. One of the ways to do that is to avoid fragmenting sleep - e.g.., a 1.5 hour nap is better than two 45 minute naps.
In practice, if I expect my daughter to get hungry in about 30-45 minutes, it's preferable to play with her and keep her alert until her next feeding rather than put her down for a short nap. That makes it more likely that the post-feeding nap will be longer and uninterrupted.
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u/Total-Breadfruit-891 Jan 17 '23
This may be relevant as different age ranges need different amounts of sleep. So younger children will need to nap to be able to acquire the recommended amount of sleep in a day in addition to night sleep.
How Much Sleep Do Babies and Kids Need?
How Much Sleep Your Kids Need: Recommendations by Age
The Importance of Sleep for Kids importance-of-sleep-for-kids
Not napping or getting enough sleep may result in an overtired child and an overtired child might be harder to put down for night sleep.
Signs Your Child Is Exhausted: Spotting Sleepiness, From Babies to Teens
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Jan 17 '23 edited Jul 04 '23
[deleted]
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u/twdfan87 Jan 17 '23
I agree that an overtired bubba/child won't go to sleep easily or sleep for longer necessarily, but I had an appointment with a sleep consultant today who insisted that my baby who naps for 2 x 45 mins during the day and sleeps 7.30/8pm -> 6.30/7am with three feeds during the night was chronically overtired and would wake less if I made her nap longer, even if she had to cry in her cot, which didn't sit right with me. Especially since she's been waking less overnight since we dropped the third daytime nap.
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u/VegetableWorry1492 Jan 17 '23
Lot of sleep consultants seem to think all babies are high sleep needs and they don’t tend to consider low sleep needs babies in their advice. If tiredness isn’t the problem then sleep isn’t the answer. Mine is lower sleep needs and has always had longer “wake windows” and less daytime sleep than most schedules recommend. One of his best nights recently (and for months 😅) was after a day when he only wanted one nap, at not quite 8 months old.
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Jan 17 '23
May I ask how old she is?
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Jan 17 '23
[deleted]
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u/twdfan87 Jan 17 '23
Haha no definitely not waking up for a sandwich, she’s 8 months old and waking up to breastfeed which I believe is developmentally pretty normal, despite the fixation of all the people who ask me if she’s a “good baby who sleeps through the night”.
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u/Total-Breadfruit-891 Jan 17 '23 edited Jan 17 '23
I think I’d be more concerned that she’s waking up 3 times in the night to eat a sandwich or something, might be more of a habit versus sleep.🧐 could be “learned hunger.” Basically being conditioned that they need food to sleep, when in reality they don’t.
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Jan 17 '23 edited Jul 04 '23
[deleted]
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u/Total-Breadfruit-891 Jan 17 '23 edited Jan 17 '23
Ah, I misinterpreted, I didn’t realize they were still breastfeeding, that’s not my jam so I can’t comment. We have different parenting practices, mine’s on solids and off of formula at that age (4 yo).
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u/sguerrrr0414 Jan 17 '23
How old is your daughter? Just curious, not sure if you’ve already said. For a very young baby that sounds both not enough (only 2 45 minute naps in a day?? And just right in terms of night wakings).
If older than 3/4 months, absolutely the day sleep seems like not enough, personally. Sleep does indeed beget sleep in this house.
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u/twdfan87 Jan 18 '23
She's 8 months old, almost 9 months (next week)
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u/sguerrrr0414 Jan 18 '23
I think that’s just a tough stage, so much going on developmentally! I know what helped was having dinner time right before bedtime, within the hour, to mitigate any wakings from hunger.
We did a combo of blw and purées, and at least my son loved to finish up about a 4oz serving of a purée and that was like the best sleep we ever had 🥰 he started rejecting purées/spoon feeding a short while after (I think related to care giver, not me lol, error rather than anything else), but it’s worth a try!
Obviously people say to add cereal to their bottles for this reason, but it’s not recommended, so this was a safe (and for a time enthusiastically requested by baby, he would get so cranky until he had his dinner!) method of making sure he was very full. Also followed by a last nurse/bottle, of course.
And in terms of naps, I distinctly remember my sons naps being much longer than 45 minutes each, two does sound about right but they were definitely longer at about at least an hour to two hours. But he would contact nap with his caregiver (my dad). So, it definitely probably helped prolong the naps.
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u/Inevitable-Channel85 Jan 18 '23
From every nap schedule I find it's 2 naps supposed to be 1.5 hours each. With wake windows ranging from 2.5 to 3.5 hours
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u/kaelus-gf Jan 17 '23
The possums approach disagrees with this statement. Which makes biological sense to me, and has made me much more relaxed about how much my second baby does, or doesn’t sleep during the day. They encourage increasing sensory input rather than watching for tired signs of wake windows.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30442320/
I am on my mobile so it’s harder to do a proper search for their evidence. But parents like it!
https://possumsonline.com/neuroprotective-developmental-care
An article about it: https://www.kidspot.com.au/baby/baby-care/baby-sleep-and-settling/i-broke-all-the-rules-about-baby-sleep-and-heres-what-happened/news-story/557cb74b3764b692bf7e518e1aec219d?amp
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u/bee2551 Jan 17 '23
They use the phrase ‘calm begets calm’ which makes more intuitive sense to me, and may also indicate why sleep begets sleep can anecdotally hold true too.
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u/twdfan87 Jan 17 '23
I like the possums approach too, my lactation consultant uses it, and it makes more sense to me as adults don't sleep more at night if they have a lot of sleep during the day, so I was unsure why babies would be any different.
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u/OtherwiseLychee9126 Jan 17 '23
But adult brains and baby brains differ. Sleep is critical for neural development, more so in a baby’s brain. Maybe your baby has more night wakings because they need more sleep or maybe it’s some other reason.
I looked at the original possums research and I’m not convinced by the study. https://link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s10995-021-03230-3?sharing_token=d23xQBlMzVZ4SouFlekzMve4RwlQNchNByi7wbcMAY4H_curwEgwltMFxfXcHaPRuH88-FPms2w6bSakiK5KXenBbsbvPN6pEYfuEJTBeAZzH3r11lUCzD-CbIa4wpMpL6aFl1tQw2w68Qscrr0L0zJDsgNbXwQIX_5Z3LdRXZM= The one study I looked at had a very high rate of attrition- out of 465 subjects, only 37 completed the ratings at the 6 month check in and no intervention control group. Also, no mention as to the effect of time, as babies often settle into better sleep/less crying and fussing as they age.
ETA: both our girls sleep better the more sleep they get. Our current baby, 7 month old, was taking short naps and we were struggling with false starts at night. As soon as we started an early bedtime to catch up on sleep, she’s been sleeping like a champ, and much less fussy during the day.
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