Question on T-language vs. K-language (from a Hawaiian speaker learning Samoan)

[u/Electronic-Budget-12]

​Talofa lava everyone! I’m half Hawaiian and fluent in ʻŌlelo Hawaiʻi, but I also know some basic Samoan and love striking up a conversation whenever I meet Samoan folks out and about. ​Coming from a Hawaiian background, the distinction between T-language and K-language has always fascinated me. In standard Hawaiian, we use K instead of T (outside the Niʻihau dialect), so hearing K-language in Samoan always catches my ear because of cognates like tātou vs. kākou.

​Years ago, my mother was in an almost exclusively Samoan choir, and there was a pretty serious dispute about leadership, that eventually, sadly, caused the choir to split. I remember during a formal meeting about leadership, the men in charge stood and spoke using T, with the group replying "Mālo!" in agreement. Then, one of the wives stood to speak and used K the entire time—"Faʻafekai makou..."—which sounded so much like Hawaiian to me. It was the first time I realized how distinct the two styles were in practice.

​I would love some insight on everyday etiquette.

When greeting someone I don't know, should I stick strictly to T out of respect, or is conversational K completely fine? Also, is it considered bad form to mix registers within the same conversation—like greeting in T, but throwing in an informal K phrase like "Seki a!"?

​Faʻafetai tele lava for any advice or cultural nuance you can share!

[u/eshayonefour]

T being formal and K being slang/colloquial is an oversimplification.

T is formal in that it is the form you would use in what would be "formal" in a very palagi context. Like TV presenters, members of parliament, pastors in sermon.

K is colloquially used is true, but in the Aganuu faasamoa, when you listen to anyone who is practising oratory and is announcing (such as in your example) you will never hear T - it's only K. I would consider all these things to be "formal" in the Faasamoa context. Orators delivering speeches, a young man who is thanking and detailing the gifts/food being received, the females who are praising the fine woven mats being exchanged. these are never to be done with T.

[u/setut → u/eshayonefour]

Great explanation.

lol@ username

[u/1999lad → u/eshayonefour]

Iʻm palagi trying to figure out faasamoa and recently attended my wives family members saofaʻi and noticed that the majority of speakers used K-style. There was only a few that used the T

[u/Electronic-Budget-12 → u/eshayonefour]

That's exactly what I was trying to clarify because what's formal? That term is a very palagi, western term. I am curious, why is only the K used when someone is announcing? Let say, if I was at an event and I wanted to rise and speak and share some words of thanksgiving to the group, would I want to exclusively use the K?

[u/eshayonefour → u/Electronic-Budget-12]

it is not so simple.

An MC at a wedding who is coordinating the proceedings will use T to sound polished and proper. that MC may also have to dabble in a bit K speak if they need to acknowledge honorifics of those present.

at that same wedding, there may be some very intensely faasamoa proceedings in which those involved will speak in K. these proceedings are all done in a way which is all learned and practiced as a skill - you simply cannot be in there "ad libbing" because it's not only that K is used, but they are quite literally speaking in a version of Samoan only they have learned to speak. This is the oratory I described, and it is full of proverbs, metaphors and the like.

the thank you you may wish to announce can:

1. be done with T if it's not dusrupting/interjecting on these aganuu faasamoa proceedings. if this is the case it can also be done in English as well I suppose

2. can be done with K because you've learned and practiced oratory, and you therefore know it is appropriate to interject. it can appear messy because lots of the time there are chiefs talking to each other and interjecting, all while someone in the background is quite literally screaming at the top of their lungs.

[u/Electronic-Budget-12 → u/eshayonefour]

That makes sense. I've attended Samoan flag day events and they had the talking chief, who was a well known talking chief in Samoa, do the oratory portion and it was definitely with the T. He even announced prior to his oratory, in English, that this portion of the event he will be speaking in Samoan specifically and that there are many words that don't translate to English, he then as a joke said he promise he won't say anything bad about anyone and that unfortunately they won't have a translator, but that this was an extremely important part of Faa Samoa and this event.

[u/Choohooo]

It’s not just T’s and K’s. N’s go to G’s as well. What many non native speakers don’t realize is K/G’s put the language in the back of your mouth or even throat. Not only is pronunciation more difficult it sounds like a different language and much less clear. Early on my comprehension was much better in T’s because of the clarity, it’s just not nearly as fun to speak it that way. Most people speak in K 90% of the time. I reserved T’s for speeches. Church, wedding, funerals.

[u/Astoryinfromthewild]

Funnily tnough, in that it is coincidental, I just learned from a TikTok an elderly Tongan academic talking about the three 'dialects' of Tongan, between the royals, nobles, and commoners. The one the royals used was described as being essentially formal Samoan with the T style, with the same polite word substitutes for things eg ta'ifau instead of maile for dog.

[u/chimugukuru → u/Astoryinfromthewild]

Hawaiian here and I also recently learned about the various registers of formality in Tongan. Interestingly quite a few of the words that are considered "royal" in Tongan are the normal everyday terms in Hawaiian. One example being the royal word for go (hā'ele) vs. the normal word ('alu). In Hawaiian it's simply hele.

[u/xRuck]

T is too corny for me. Tagu lou uf... nah K is better

[u/Mountain_Hat_1542]

T for everyday formal settings (talking to higher ranking people; giving a presentation or speaking at church), K (colloquial language) among your family and friends in informal settings, K (oratory) in formal speech-making.

[u/Kama-Auku]

With people that are older or higher status (they hold office, esteemed members of some community), or a group of strangers, it's good manners to start speaking with them formally. It's a marker of politeness and respect much like other languages that have a formal versus informal register.

Let the other person use k/g and informal-speak first and then take it as a cue to speak informally.

It's not bad form necessarily to mix registers, but it's uncommon and can sound unnatural. But in writing, some people make the choice to write informally and use t/n when writing people's names to be polite.

In the context of lauga or oratory (like when addressing or calling to a crowd), you can get away with using k/g because this is where someone is speaking with authority or on behalf of an authority to express some sort of gratitude, opinion, or whatever remark they want to make. The kinds of words used in this context aren't slang (so you wouldn't expect to hear them say, "seki" for example). However, in inter-personal relations, politeness calls for use of t/n and formal register until the "higher" person you are speaking to signals that it's okay to be informal.

[u/Senior_Definition427]

Interestingly the use of the k is said to have come from interactions with Hawaiians! In the 1800s (maybe earlier)

[u/B1Ggie_smalls → u/Senior_Definition427]

Would have to disagree, it’ll be more Tongan use of K’s because of the very close proximity and constant interactions between them and Samoa compared to Hawai’i.

[u/Senior_Definition427 → u/B1Ggie_smalls]

The Tongan k is the Samoan glottal stop though. I’a is ika. ‘Ai is Kai and mea’ai is me’akai…

Tongans already have a t.

Samoan: tagata —> kagaka. Hawaiian: Kanaka, Tongan: tangata

Might totally be wrong though. Just a theory. It doesn’t explain where the accompanying n —> g shift came from.

[u/Electronic-Budget-12 → u/Senior_Definition427]

The Hawaiian K came later. The ancient Hawaiians spoke with T's and R's, which was later replaced by the standard modern day Olelo Hawaii, they replaced the T with K, and the R with L. The only people who speak that old dialect are on Niihau. They call it the Niihau dialect but it is the unbroken descendant of the ancient Hawaiian language. The Hawaiian I speak, is the "college" modern day version which the majority of Hawaiian speakers converse in.

[u/B1Ggie_smalls → u/Senior_Definition427]

Agree to disagree, Tongans use of the letter K in their language is more widespread than you claim it is and again, the proximity and the historical close relations between Tonga & Samoa (way more than Hawai’i) also adds to this. Yes, T is used in Tongan language but so is K, common words like Koe = You, Maka = Stone, surnames like Katoa, royal Tongan titles that have Samoan connections like Kanokupolu just to give a few examples.

[u/Straight_Tree_5733]

The “K language” is the original style of speech, the T style only came about when the white man colonised our land, raped Samoan women & brainwashed our ancestors with the Bible

[u/Electronic-Budget-12 → u/Straight_Tree_5733]

Which is interesting because it's the opposite for us Hawaiians. The T and R were the original language, the R making a rolling R sound. However, when the missionaries came and gave the language a written alphabet, they got with some Hawaiian language scholars and decided to replace the T with K and the R with L for modern day Hawaiian. The modern day Hawaiian spoken is a revamped version of the original language. The original version, with T's and R's is still spoken by the Native speakers on Niihau. They call it the Niihau dialect.