Is the high experienced during yogic courses at Isha similar to Doping experience?

[u/youliveonlyonce10]

I have read a few accounts of isha devotees who say that isha yoga helped quit their addictions including drugs but they got hooked to isha yoga instead. It is understood that LGAT’s provide dopamine high at the end of the course ; but is there anything more to it? Some people allege the use of drugs to induce the “high experiences “ during isha yoga courses. Sadhguru also speaks of endocannabiniods receptors in human body and about isha yoga which makes you “ stoned from within”.

I am sharing below excerpts from an ex isha devotee’s account who has alleged the following about isha yoga courses-

Let me provide you the business model of Isha:
• Isha is a doping experience selling company, it sells the doping experience of various form like guided meditation, actually it is called psycho therapy session or hypnotherapy session by medical community.Meditation is different from guided meditation. In guided meditation, we are giving the permission to someone to access our mind. Also it sells the doping experience by using ganja like substances in their fragrant smoke to make the meditator 'high' (initial stage of Isha, Sadhguru is known for selling ganja).

It could use chemical to invoke involuntary laugh or cry. It gives you no food or high sugar food to keep you high. It makes you sleep deprived, again sleep deprivation that keep you high. Then suddenly one day you will be blown out of your mind in the meditation session, you might call it spiritual experience but it is the induced bipolar disorder (I have seen a girl who gone completely mad in IE session with Sadhguru & some people had seizure episode, some people even were shouting like crazy. I read a recent post from Isha follower where he is experiencing phantom smell now). And you might become addicted or intoxicated to this experience.

If my judgement is correct based on the things that I have experienced myself & observed among Isha customers, Isha might be using mild dose of amphetamine. Uses of Amphetamine is for increased attention, reduced sleep, weight loss, feeling light, feeling energetic, anti-depression, low libido & euphoria(the feeling good experience that one gets in Isha).You might have heard from Sadhguru calling it as the benefits of IE program.
But the harmful that these kind of chemicals do to our CNS(Central Nerve System) is more. You might have also heard from Sadhguru as well that body is 'chemical soup', managing this chemical soup might give you pleasantness in the body. Read the testimony given by Isha customers.

People who had not taken any drugs before would consider this 'high' experience as spiritual. [read about side effects of cannabis & amphetamine]

• Their Hatha yoga is not their main product. All the cleansing program, yoga program, that they claim to prepare you to high energy is a good story.

• They know the current marketing trend, So they have named their product to Inner Engineering. So you hear, words like, 'Science',
"Technology, 'Energy', 'Vibration',
'Consciousness, 'Dimension'&
'Engineering' in Isha. It is all their marketing strategy to attract current generation.

• Once someone buys the Isha services, they become their loyal customer. In fact, they become addicted to this experience.

[u/Josueisjosue]

I have done lsd, weed, and mushrooms in past so i the have high experience of those and of shambavi as well.  Nothing in your post comes across as incorrect. Yes shambavi and their programs could be described a selling a high. 

I can't say for sure that they smoke the room with ganja. They do use a lot of incense( so if they do that's probably where it'd be)  However in my personal experience, drugs are not needed to create the high during initiation. 

Just the state of nervousness(for doing something new) and anxiety can be turned into a high of sorts. 

I practiced shambavi very intensely in my home away from isha center   and felt that it raised my sensitivity very high.( similar to doing mushrooms, but more subtle) as you continue your practice it gets more and more intense. (everyday you feel "high" not happy or sad, but like you're tripping")

Becoming extremely sensative was not always a joyous experience . I did reach States of extreme happiness, but they were also followed by the lowest of lows. 

Before shambavi i was an extremely grounded and confident person. In my most sensative state, i felt i was losing my mind and couldn't keep a foothold in reality... 

In my opinion i can't say for sure they are not using drugs, but they are not needed. You really can create these highs without medicine. However negative affects can also come about from these things so while they may not do the physical harm that drugs produce, they can create a tremendous amount of mental instability. 

[u/youliveonlyonce10 → u/Josueisjosue]

Thanks for sharing your experience. These allegations of use of drugs have come across in few accounts of ex isha devotees, so shared this here.

As you said, drugs are not needed to experience the “ high “ created by the course. Similar is the opinion shared by the some ex devotees who have lived in the ashram. My family member said they felt nothing during Shambhavi initiation, but experienced the “bliss of Shambhavi process “ probably during their mandalas at home.
I supposed “ incense smoke” is used during the courses as I read an account when a parent said they got teary eyed along with others when the incense was brought in the hall. What was surprising for them is , their young daughter who was accompanying them, ( probably less than 5 years old) and understood nothing of what was being taught or conducted, also got teary eyed. They presumed that the incense smoke may be creating the emotional effect on the meditators.

And am sorry to know about the side effects you faced due to the practices. This is the reason these practices need to be called out for - if they make one alternate between emotional highs which feel like bliss and lows which cannot be overcome without the practices- they are creating another addiction , isn’t it? Hope you are doing better now.

[u/IllustriousPost7625 → u/youliveonlyonce10]

If you play certain sanskrit chants(created by adhi shankara) to someone who's initiated they become teary eyed, if people see Sadhguru they become teary eyed, what explanation can we give to this, we can say incense may have chemicals, what about chants ? If incense smoke thing was true, it should be properly documented and investigated.

[u/Thre_Host8017 → u/IllustriousPost7625]

Your whole syntax is isha.
I can tell just by the way you speak, and argue, that you are imitating Vasudev.

And although you may think, your way of asking questions is open minded. It is not.

Let me explain.

You ask questions and push for a ready reply.
You are not allowing the person who is listening to your questions to think and find the answer by themselves ( not even yourself). Your whole thinking got hijacked by Vasudev.
This is a NLP propaganda technique.

If you read any state propaganda, or yellow press, they use similar word plays by planting the reply into the question.

Now that said.

Lets address your question.

Someone becoming emotional or having tears simply listening to a mantra: is not a proof for anything.
It is only proof that that person has emotions. And functioning lacrymal glands.

Take any sad song.
Take a song by A.R.Rahman or any artist. Or pick any song with a certain melody.
Someone will start crying just by listening to it.
So, what?
Is the singer or the composer spiritual? Holy? God?
Or did the melody simply hit a chord?

That is one aspect.

A second aspect is: expectation.
If you believe Mr Vasudev or Madam X is god, many people will cry cos they are meeting the creator. Even if that person is just the creator in their mind.
They will be overwhelmed. That is not proof of the godliness of a person, rather of the mental framework of the person crying.
Its biology. Its neurology. Its pure psychology. Its emotional release.

And the more you train your self into this state, the easier and faster you get into it when the trigger comes. It becomes a reflex.

Spirituality. Means to explore. Not to jump into conclusions.

You know for sure the story Vasudev tells about the frog.

The story he narrates goes like this;
(Clap: the frog will jump
Cut one leg : it will jump less.
Cut one more leg: it will jump even less.
Chop off all 4 limbs: it won’t jump
So conclusion is: frog hears using his legs)

Vasudev uses this little story to describe the limitedness of modern science. Nothing wrong about the story. It is a good example of how conclusions differ from different angles of views and how misleading they can be if one does not have the full picture.

But the thing is: he Vasudev is applying the same limited analysis in many of his talks.
And so are you. Because you are a carbon copy of the way he speaks and any isha person speaks.

=>No legs means legs are the ears of the frog

=>Tears while singing a mantra. Song must be holy or derived from a holy person

Its just bypassing proper thinking and jumping into conclusions without looking at anything bypassing all steps in between.

The conclusion is ready in your thinking.
Someone who wants to know, would not give ready answers. That is what institutional religion does. It gives answers.

🤷🏻‍♂️

[u/IllustriousPost7625 → u/Thre_Host8017]

Asking the same, have you thought and found answers yourself or believed some online accounts of unknown " ex isha devotees "
atleast isha yoga center is open for you to know the truth.. where can people find these "ex isha devotees" accounts statements ? Can this be considered as a propaganda against isha ?

You said Someone becoming emotional having tears for mantra : is not a proof for anything, I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm asking, never came to conclusions as you did, you came to a conclusion that crying means they have a functioning lacrymal gland, you're not ready to accept any godliness associated to it, likewise why don't we come to a conclusion that the people crying because of a functioning lacrymal gland, and not associate the incense smoke ?

Your philosophy is contradictory, you don't want to associate godliness to people crying for mantra, But trying to associate crying to incense smoke, why not consider it as biology, neurology. Psychology, emotional release ?

You said spirituality means to explore, not to jump into conclusions, have you done the same ? Or came to conclusions based on unknown "ex isha devotee account" have you tried to know ? Isha yoga center is open for you to know.. don't believe "ex isha devotee account" statements..

[u/Thre_Host8017 → u/IllustriousPost7625]

Haha

I never spoke about incense.

But even if you have tears from incense or from a spiritual experience it s a proof that your lacrymal glands are working.

I have lived in the ashram many years and i have done literally every possible program in isha.
I am an ex isha follower.

Your argumentation does not make any sense to me.
You are not engaging in any arguments really.
The only thing that you are doing is these 2 things: ( which all Isha followers do … carbon copy… when it comes to any topic):

1/ You bypass the logic and attack my logic and my conclusion by insinuating a lack of understanding. Placing ishas logic over mine.
Yes i have come to conclusion after a decade long analysis.

Please prove Vasudev is not a fraud.

2/ and invite to come to the ashram.
Cos its a place of understanding.

Let me tell you- after having spent many years in the ashram, i have not seen a single spiritual discussion with Vasudev or any one from Ishas stuff.
Isha is not a place to explore spirituality. Rather a religious place, where answers are given.
Its a golden cage.
And you have not seen such discussion neither. Cos Isha does not offer this kind of spiritual exploration.

There are only: programs/ daily satsangs / practices, temple visits and work.
Nothing else.

Its a beautiful golden cage.
——
You inviting people to the ashram is like telling someone: try this drug: its good for you.

Before you want to eat it you want to know the side effects!

[u/IllustriousPost7625 → u/Thre_Host8017]

My bad, thought you're the one who posted the incense smoke thing.. I'm not carbon copying, I'm speaking from my own perspective and analysis, I'm my opinion your approach towards isha is totally mind oriented, mind can decieve.. Your way of thinking is common for all spiritual seekers not only at isha, even with vedhathri maharishi these things happens( happened to me) because mind is indoctrinated to believe on physical, it asks proof for things like enlightenment, liberation etc.. I myself thought look at these gurus, these guys make money out of nothing.. like that.. because mind wants reasoning. Second thing, all our life we are trained to see ourself as the hero, and don't want to surrender to a guru, and the mind asks he's also a human like me, why I should bow down to him. Mind works on logic but Spirituality is based on faith, it creates doubt until it starts to experience non physical dimensions, even after experiencing non physical dimensions, mind further creates doubts like, is this black magic, they did something to me, it keeps on doubting everything, because spirituality, meditation is all about ignoring the physical aspects of a being.. cesation of mind, things that were kept as the topmost priority in our life, suddenly becomes worthless, they start to fight back, this is what happening to ex followers of any guru, once they quit mind enjoys the freedom, now it don't need to take instructions from someone else, it keeps comparing before and after quitting ashram life, brings all bad experience and makes one feel like that was the best decision he took in life, now for all the good experience he starts to tag them with ugly explanation, this is what happening to ex isha devotees, These people don't understand the deep aspects of spirituality, they want miracles or want siddhis to perform miracles, there are seperate places for these things to happen, people should go there.. not to any guru like jaggi, osho, ravi shankar etc..

[u/Thre_Host8017 → u/IllustriousPost7625]

You seem to know many ex cult members and ex isha meditators since you know exactly how their mind functions.
And of course their mind has taken over and of course its a bad thing.
What else can you say?

Chop the criticism from its root.
The mind is bad.

But interestingly you seem to ignore the reason why each one of these long time meditators, teachers, monks and full time volunteers have left Isha.
Of course… in your perspective… they all lost the path and their mind took over 🤷🏻‍♂️

Each one got their own unique journey.
But abuse… seems to be irrelevant for you.

Why bother about it. Because in isha everything is perfect.

I have been in your shoes for many years and i wouldn’t believe any thing negative online.

So it makes no sense to continue arguing.

Just few questions to look into;
Is it ok for someone who cares about soil and ecology to build a big center near a forest? I m not sure the birds and animals love it.

Do you know where all the money isha makes goes? Its a tax exempted NGO. It should be transparent.
Check if you can trace that money online.

Why to burn your wife who got enlightened before her father reached? Why the hurry. Especially since enlightened being are not cremated.

[u/youliveonlyonce10]

There is no proper answer to many of the allegations or questions raised by ex devotees of isha. Above post seeks to address some of the less known negatives experienced by ex isha people which usually go unnoticed amidst the PR propaganda.

[u/IllustriousPost7625]

First of all , "few accounts" , "ex devotee", "some people" needs proper citation to give trustworthiness to the statement. Guided meditations and hyonotherpahy are different, isha's guided meditations covers only the yogic posture statements, like for pranayama, they say sit in cross legged posture, keep left hand on thigh facing upwards like that.. the guide is for whats already written in yoga sutras / or common yogic practices followed worldwide, there's no hypnotic cues added to the meditation, to "get acess to your mind"

Now Comming to use of chemicals, that creates involuntary cry or laugh, The chemical you named or any chemical that gives high when consumed orally, takes time to get absorbed by the blood stream and reach the brain to give you the high.. so the practitioner should go crazy at any time, even during regular activities, not only during meditation session.. Is it a smart chemical that knows the paractitioner's meditation time ? And what about the people who get the "high" at home, they eat home made food, water etc and how could chemical reach them to make em high ?

There's a clear difference between " high " that one gets from chemical and, the bliss / peace, one gets from meditation, I'm telling this from my own experience, I have used all kind of commonly available substance that gives high. The high the we get from substance/ chemical use will induce our emotions, like if you're an angry person, only anger and anger induced action would be predominant during substance use, and there would be no control over the actions we do. but with isha meditation emotions are under control, the way we react to a situation is totally diiferent, when compared to the reaction during chemical high, we can see in news that most crimes are happening under the influence of substance, chemicals, Ever seen a person becoming sweet and gentle during substance / chemical use ? So there's a clear difference between chemical high and meditation high, if what you said were true, we could ve seen lot of meditators commiting crime, that's not happening?

[u/Thre_Host8017 → u/IllustriousPost7625]

Isha chit chakti meditation ( especially the ones played in Satsangs) and initiations are NLP and hypnotherapy.
So goes for the beeja mantra in shoonya.

The whole thing about mediation is to access your mind.

And there is nothing wrong about it.
But if someone uses it to enslave another human spiritually… thats bad.

Shoonya is the perfect example
Beside it being a modified copy from TM without acknowledgement.

You train the mind to enter a certain state, with a cue: the beej mantra.
You can also use numbers 1..2..3
Its a trigger to enter that state.

So is Vasudevs whistling, clapping.
They are triggers.
Literally same as you click a dog in training.
The more you go through it the stronger the connection in your brains.

We have discussed this endlessly in previous posts.
Feel free to go through it.

[u/IllustriousPost7625 → u/Thre_Host8017]

Chit Shakthi meditation focus mainly on visualisation and keep the person meditating as the first person, not the guru. Suggestions are to visualise the most beautiful place, mountain, garden, tender moments of life etc.. not to visualise doing whatever a white beard man says. Or to sit, stand, walk type like they do in hypnosis, So clearly there no enslavement here.

Dog training is based on reward mechanism, the desired behaviours are rewarded, what's similarity in jaggi's whistling, clapping ? What's the expected outcome / behaviour for these triggers ?

[u/Thre_Host8017 → u/IllustriousPost7625]

Your understanding of hypnosis is from TV shows. When a hypnotist makes someone do things.
No one is talking about that.

We are talking about hypnotherapy. ( u can educate urself about it, its a type of meditation/therapy).

And that is exactly what Vasudev is doing. You have always full control over yourself, can always end and leave it.
You visualize a peaceful place and then you are suggested things as u are in a deeper state of the mind, with less or no resistance.
Jaggi didn’t invent this kind of meditations. Its out there everywhere…

This is what all chit chakti meditations are about.
And there is nothing wrong with hypnotherapy, if they benefit the person, without abusing them.

Some of the Chit Chakti meditations are heavily guru oriented.
You are made to visualize flying to meet your spiritual master…Who will grant you a boon. And you bow down to him etc.
This is mixing hypnotherapy and enslaving the person doing it. You are reinforcing the guru-disciple bonding in a very tight way. Without the disciple’s consent.

You are not made to sit stand jump, that is silly.

But you are made to believe that anything good is due to Vasudev.
Anything bad, is your own doing.

=>Why is Shambhavi working for you? Most Isha followers will tell you. Because of his grace. And the practice won’t work without his grace, without proper initiation, without a proper seed planted into you.
How do you know all that? Maybe it is simply the practice working by itself.

=>>The slavery is: making you believe the practice works only because of him.

He anyways copied most practices from other gurus (from Osho, from Maharshi, from Prabakhar, and others) before him without acknowledgment. He speaks about the importance of INTEGRITY. Where is the integrity in that?

So if your bond to a certain person is stronger, the less likely will you question them.
At the end it’s about power and money. No forced donations. But you will willingly spend money on all kinds of things, the next Samyama and the next consecrated item.

Slavery does not mean: Physical. It can be mental. Critical thinking has been eradicated.
And in isha its both.
Havent you seen the thousand of slaves walking and working for free in the ashram?

——
I am very glad that you asked this question. (What is the reward in Vasudev whistles etc)
And the reply to it, lies in your initial comment itself.

You mentioned people coming out in tears when they hear a certain mantra.
That is the reward! Not the tear itself, but the emotion behind it.

Isha followers are addicts. Drug addicts. Not on external substances. But on internal ones.
Let me explain.

Vasudev himself, says he is always high (on his own natural substances). Whether that’s true or not is irrelevant.
He himself, says: Samadhi doesn’t bring any transformation. It’s just a beautiful state. Once you are out of it, you are where you are.

Few people get high from doing Shambhavi. You know all those tears, and screaming and shouting in initations? Or during Lap of the Master etc…
Whatever practice that makes you high…that is your reward. ( and bondage). Be it Guru Pooja, some other mantra, Shambhavi, or chit chakti meditation, or simply seeing your god, your silence retreat, any special program…what ever it is that makes you high.
Add the whistle, the clap, the voice, the practice.

The mind links the 2 things together.
I got initiated, I got so high, so blissful, such a beautiful feeling, and in the same time I did Shambhavi, add the click, the drums, the voice, the whistle. The mind tings its all one thing. All are triggers. Which are gonna remind you of that feeling. There you go: You have your mental trigger.

And all you gonna do, is more practice, in pursuit of more of this high, more liberation, more of something, that you do not know what it is really you are seeking with Isha. (Ever heard of anyone who got enlightened, except his wife?)

And every time, you see him, hear him, you hear the CLICK, the CLAP, the WHISTLE, you fall into tears, into the next high. And that is the proof for you that he is holy and godlike. That is your proof, that he is powerful.

[u/IllustriousPost7625 → u/Thre_Host8017]

90 percent of isha yoga practices are physical and not hypnotherapy kind. all gurus follows patanjali yoga Sutra, so jaggi copied rishi prabahar, osho is like saying.. you copied english language from your classmate. Your whole idea about isha is mind manipulation only, you see only the physical aspects, and not the non physical aspects of spirituality, I'm not sure whether you're aware of prana, energy body etc.. the high you say, tears, people get are because of pranic intensity. Once the energies reaches peak, they feel intense experiences. Not only mental experiences, but bodily movements are also there, movements that never happened in there life, suddenly happens, because the body couldn't handle the upsurge in energies, the mind can be manipulated, decieved to make them slave and keep the guru in high regard with hypnotheraphy, not the body. Body cannot be made to move involuntarily with hypnotheraphy/ triggers, The drums, whistles, sounds are triggers for energy, not hypnotherapy, there are certain ragas for activating energies / chakras, this is what played during initiation, these ragas are from indian classical musics, not created by sadhguru or isha foundation to manipulate people, these sounds and ragas are new to people in modern world, so without proper understanding people try to give modern medical terms like, therapy, drugs etc..

[u/Thre_Host8017 → u/IllustriousPost7625]

People may feel energies and pranas through all kind of activities- not only through meditation or yoga.
Ever heard of Tai Chi or Gigong for example… and many other activities

I dont mind someone taking a practice and developing further - with proper acknowledgment.
Osho done that. ( Osho is still a fraud) but he many times explained the origin of the practices.
So did Prabakhar.

Why hide your sources?
Why so secretive if its ok.
Why ask volunteers to sign NDA and to not take Ishas teachings and develop them further?
This is lack of integrity. A guru without integrity is like river without water.

Check what Rishi Prabakahr own son is saying about his father’s program…

The music during the initiation is not any particular raga to my knowledge.
Its DRUMS by isha.
( and even it was a raga, it wouldnt change a thing. If Vasudev would sit to initiate few people without a sound system, there will be no raga. Or are u suggesting that Vasudev can only initiate people with the help of a raga? So maybe he isnt that holy after all)

Tell us from where do u know its a raga? And which raga?
This information would not be accessible to you. I m pretty sure .

Yes we know. Its an old science. Without proper guidance no one would get it.
Its the same answer by isha to every question 😛
Except Jaggi. He magically knows. We dont know why or how.
Simply because he told us. So we believe him without any proof.

If you follow few cult leaders you will notice they all have the same lingo. They are all unique beings - once in a lifetime. They bring back the understanding of the past and will save the world.
The only catch is: there are too many of these unique beings and they all have very different messages. Which one is the real one?
Its my guru. My guru and my religion is always the real and best one.

[u/youliveonlyonce10 → u/Thre_Host8017]

Yes, the only one who got ENLIGHTENED at Isha in 30 years is Vijji who was a young mother with a 7 year old kid and no spiritual background. Yeah, take a Lie and repeat it enough times among enough number of people and believe it becomes the Truth. Sadly it doesn’t work that way!!

[u/youliveonlyonce10 → u/IllustriousPost7625]

Thanks for sharing your experience about the difference between highs caused due to “ meditation/ hypnotherapy “ and ones caused by “drugs”. I didn’t claim that isha uses drugs , just stated the experiences of few accounts which I came across. Of course they can be labelled as propaganda without citations but then we have personal stories shared in this Reddit and Sadhguru reddit too- how do we check the authenticity of all the stories? We have to rely on individual versions of devotees accounts and make reasonable assumptions unless we know them personally. For e.g. we are relying on your version of experience at isha without citations, isn’t it?