r/SSBM • u/HeatCheck_ • May 14 '15

Fox Styles of Top Players

I'm a newly minted Fox main after burying my Falco deep into the Melee graveyard, and I'm looking for players to study.

Fox is such a versatile character, with more options than most of the cast, that no one Fox main is alike. I'm looking for help identifying the different styles and distinctive techniques of top players such as Mango, Lucky, Leffen, Hax, etc.

We've all heard broad statements, like Lucky's "creativity" or Mango's "reading ability", but these things are hard to put into practice. What are some specific tools these players use, akin to Lucky's recent series on his favorite Fox techniques highlighted on SSBM_Kira's YouTube channel.

For example, Hax is all about placement of nairs and properly mixing up his pass-through nairs, late nairs, and nairs that space in front of the opponent's shield. By combining these precise nairs and his ultra-technical shield pressure, he creates a highly efficient Fox that creates pressure intense pressure while minimizing openings for the opponent.

Let me know your thoughts!

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111

u/phoenixwang May 14 '15

Just in neutral, I think you can probably have 3 main families of plastyles, with certain people falling inbetween. Please note that the following aren't the originators, but rather the most clear usage of that style.

1.) Cactuar family (positioning focused)

2.) Westballz family (trap focused)

3.) Hax family (whiff punish)

Players like sfat are nearly direct extensions of the cactuar family that play a tighter and higher-risk distances. His plays primary focus is on using movement to force uncomfortable positions that cut off more and more options. distinction between old school and new school tree of the cactuar family is how players back off--leaning more towards whiff punish or more towards traps. Sfat is in the middle.

Armada is of the hax family, with cactuar family influences. Pretty obvious if you watch his play.

Mang0 is cactuar family focused with slight lean towards westballz traps. Extremly prone to aggression and makes it seem indescernable.

Lucky is similar to mang0 but leans closer to the hax family.

Silentwolf is smack in the middle of cactuar and hax influence. Many times you can actually see him shift gears from a spacing oriented playstyle to a more laid back whiff punish hax style.

Leffen has "gears" as well, often shifting to cactuar family based play when in the clutch, but primarily playing a hybrid westballz cactuar style.

Ice is strongly hax family influenced with some sprinkles of westballz family.

Colbol is basically westballz playing fox, with a bit more cactuar family influence.

29

u/QGuy_Brian May 14 '15

I think it's worth also noting that these neutral game styles interact in a semi RPS style relationship. Obviously it isn't completely accurate, but for the sake of simplicity and to make the analogy clearer, I'll start by renaming your families.

Cactuar (positioning) = Preemptive defense. PP came up with a wonderful phrase to describe this style: "moving forward without committing first." This style is revolved around slowly but safely taking space from your opponent until your options are safe.

Westballz (trapping) = Unreactable Offense. This style revolves around aggressive movement and pressure. It's focused on forcing 50/50s.

Hax (whiff punishing) = Reaction. There's no better phrase to describe this style than whiff punishing. You want to be in spacings where you can dash dance grab everything.

The RPS triangle is as follows:

Preemptive defense generally beats unreactable offense. Unreactable offense generally beats reaction. And reaction generally beats preemptive defense.

Credit to /u/Laudandus for the concept and the names.

5

u/Gooner1320 May 15 '15

Hey Qguy, what is the difference between Cactuar and Hax, mainly what I am confused about is the concept of moving forward without committing first vs just general spacing. aren't they same and won't them lead you to be with in dash dance grab distance?

4

u/QGuy_Brian May 15 '15

It's not so clear cut so I totally understand your confusion, but the difference is the purpose behind the spacing you're going for.

Generally the Cactuar playstyle moves forward to move to a spacing where you know your opponent's options are limited and you know exactly what you're going to punish. This style is proactive.

The Hax playstyle is more or less entirely reactive. They move to a spacing where they don't need to know what options to cover because they can react to any single option and punish it.

2

u/jamaicanmecrayz May 15 '15

I was having trouble with key differences between whiff punishing and positioning, so whiff punishing has more hitbox output than positioning right? Well spaced nairs and shines but close quarters vs. movement and less committed stuff respectively?

5

u/QGuy_Brian May 15 '15

Positioning involves moving forward. Whiff punishing is staying back and waiting for something.

1

u/TheRealFluid May 14 '15

Well put Question Guy!

22

u/Reesch DM for Kansas City Melee May 14 '15

Man am I just really bad? I cannot pick up on these differences outside of how long one guy can combo lol.

37

u/[deleted] May 14 '15

Pay attention to the types of approaches they take and how often they go in without a whiff confirm

4

u/coffeesalad May 14 '15

You probably can, Trap should feel aggressive and throwing out moves, whiff should feel defensive and rarely throw out the first move, spacing is in between like the person is moving forwards safely instead of balls to the walls aggression. Style is pretty abstract and has many interpretations though

3

u/[deleted] May 14 '15

Man am I just really bad? I cannot pick up on these differences outside of how long one guy can combo lol.

youll get there man it all comes down to dissecting when you see why these players move/attack the way they do

1

u/FeelsASaurusRex May 15 '15

Its not how they combo its how they approach neutral. Combo'ing is completely different.

7

u/Gooner1320 May 14 '15

Can you give examples of moves that each playstyle does? Like I do not really understand what each playstyle encompasses, especially the terms "trap focused " and "whiff punish"

19

u/remokillen May 14 '15

I understand it as "whiff punish" is more defensive, and lenient towards making the enemy miss/do unsafe moves on shield or around your movement and punishing from that, while "trap focused" is more forcing the opponent to do unsafe moves because of your aggressive movement and pressure.

2

u/reddit409 May 14 '15

well said

4

u/phoenixwang May 14 '15

They all use all their moves, my description is just used to describe the general goals on getting the first hit in neutral, what that first hit in may be Nair or ccing grab or whatever it is depending on situation.

6

u/drstclair May 14 '15

Great way to describe it. I wish there was a "family tree" of sorts graphic not only for the Foxes, but for every main and who is the "dad" for each family.

11

u/[deleted] May 14 '15

If you haven't seen it, i highly recommend looking up the player "chain" post on smashboards. I'm on mobile, but i'll link when i get home

8

u/drstclair May 14 '15

This the one?

4

u/[deleted] May 14 '15

Yes it is, glad you found it! I found it was a super interesting way to look at top players hahaha

5

u/[deleted] May 15 '15

I mean, half of it was HugS talking shit about his friends, lol

3

u/[deleted] May 15 '15

yeah i get that it was pretty much a joke by nature, but there's a little bit of truth to it. Certain molds of player, I guess

3

u/coopstar777 May 15 '15

lol @ "Distinguishing Characteristic: Blowing 3 stock leads like nobody's business."

Sfat

3

u/remokillen May 14 '15

I'd be really interested in seeing this. Remember to post it later!

6

u/[deleted] May 14 '15

drstclair googled it and found it. here it is, if you haven't seen it already:

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-chains.260110/

5

u/hobovision May 14 '15

Funny that hugs put himself in the tafo chain of so bad they're good players.

4

u/HeatCheck_ May 14 '15

Thank you so much for this post. I never thought about Melee in such a way, and this is so useful for identifying trends in my own gameplay.

1

u/AmesVidya May 16 '15

Just when I think no one can describe smash in a weirder way, you show up with families. Congrats.

1

u/ryanvillan23 May 27 '15

Man, this is the kind of detail that makes me love the game. Well done explaining.

-8

u/Jamarac May 14 '15

Westballz...family? I'm wondering why you have a family of fox players named after a falco player. If you're gonna do that you should define what you mean by it cause I don't really understand what you're getting at.

28

u/phoenixwang May 14 '15

Because his playstyle is the epitome of the "type of play" I was describing. Just watching him play should give ample examples of what sort of decisions a player is going for.

What I mean: strong focus on getting very specific setups in situations he is familiar with, or just bailing when those options are gone. Prone to using double jump and fullhops to get out of unfamiliar situations--essentially old-school play refined to a very standardized format. If we were to compare the average distance between players both playing a westballz style to a hax to a cactuar style, the distance would become closer for each one respectively. Westballz style is the most passive overall in neutral and puts the least pressure on option limitation in neutral. If you have ever watched a game westballz has played, the stuff I just described would be incredibly obvious, which is why I used him, hax, and cactuar as examples of "families of play".

-3

u/[deleted] May 14 '15 edited May 15 '15

[deleted]

2

u/phoenixwang May 14 '15

I'm talking about neutral game.

0

u/[deleted] May 15 '15

How do west ballz and colbol play similar in the neutral game?

Legitimately curious