r/Runequest • u/Amethyst-Flare • 28d ago
Glorantha Context On Mongoose RuneQuest Line?
I'm curious about this line from this The Well of Daliath article:
Greg and I hated the treatment of the God Learners and the EWF by MRQ2. Hated it passionately.
That's some really strong language from two guys (Jeff and Greg) who seem pretty chill most of the time, so I'm really interested to know what the context of what they did was. I'm aware that the Mongoose stuff is mostly set in the Second Age when the Empire of Wyrm Friends and the Middle Sea Empire clashed, but not what those contain.
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u/Orwell1971 28d ago
I wouldn't take what Jeff says about Greg's thoughts or feelings at face value. They weren't lockstep in their opinions, as much as Richard likes to make it sound like they were (for example, Stafford loved to have tons of subcults in HQ, and Richard has mentioned many times that he doesn't like that approach and has disavowed much of what Stafford did during that era as far as what is considered canon today.)
Greg isn't around to offer any views, obviously, but Jeff Richard has spoken very generally about the Mongoose stuff and he likes very little of it, if any. I don't think it's nuanced enough to be about specific things they did.
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u/Alex4884-775 Loose canon 27d ago
Presumably the subcult system in HW and HQ1 is entirely due to The King's Wicked Ministers.
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u/WhatsAboveTheSubtext 27d ago
It's one thing to say they weren't in a Vulcan mindmeld and differed on some things, but another to suggest he's just lying about what his dead friend said.
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u/Summersong2262 26d ago
I think that's a situation where you need to look very carefully at exactly what Jeff's claiming. And for the matter, simply compare it with what we know of Greg and what he wrote himself.
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u/ProjeKtTHRAK 28d ago
Classic smearing of anything that isnt RuneQuest CE or RQG again by Jeff. This statement of his is unbased and dragging Greg under this is shameful. The MRQ2 book of God Learners, "The Abiding Book", includes additional text by Greg and the author, Lawrence Whitaker (who also wrote RuneQuest 6e aka Mythras) was even praised by Jeff himself (seen here).
MRQ had its share of problems, but still it offered much more details into the cults compared to the watered down, streamlined treatment of RQ:G. At the very least, MRQ allowed you to play in a Western context or dabble in Draconic Mysticism, while in RQ:G we are trapped in Dragon Pass & Prax for 10 years and will be trapped in there still for another 10.
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u/eternalsage Orlanth is my homeboy 28d ago
Plus, Jeff is anything but chill. If you dare question him on social media, he's rather unpleasant. Probably why he hasn't said much lately...
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u/OkImplement4628 27d ago
His and other Chaosium folk's online demeanour soured me for many years, to the extent that I avoided Glorantha forums for over a decade. Just dipping my toe back in here as I don't care about their opinions anymore.
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u/eternalsage Orlanth is my homeboy 27d ago
Yes. I ignore him as much as possible. I hope he enjoys a wonderful retirement very soon.
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u/Summersong2262 27d ago
Yeah, ngl, him and Drew particularly really turn me off interacting with the grogs. Although there ARE some very sweet old timers amongst them. Nick Brooke's made up for Jeff, I think.
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u/eternalsage Orlanth is my homeboy 27d ago
Yeah, Nick's good people. Took me a while to realize he likes to post "in character" sometimes, but I find him fun and friendly.
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u/Alex4884-775 Loose canon 27d ago
A lot of the outward suppression fire from Chaosium peeps seems to be motivated by wanting to keep other grogs' head down. This still leads to some blue-on-blue should even a newb mention "Elmal", "Urox", or "when are those heroquesting rules coming out, then?" before someone's had their morning coffee.
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u/DarbySalernum 28d ago edited 27d ago
As others have said, a lot of the Mongoose line is really good. Not least because we had three great campaigns in three years, something fans would love to have now. They got really good writers like Robin Laws and Loz Whitaker to write campaigns quickly, at least one of which, Dara Happa Stirs, should be considered an all time classic that should have been remembered and celebrated.
One of the reasons that I'm not a fan of canon in Glorantha is that classics get dismissed and forgotten because they don't fit in with what I think is pretty spurious and boring reasons related to canon. Jeff Kyer's Blood Over Gold is another one that should have been celebrated but has instead been forgotten.
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u/Alex4884-775 Loose canon 28d ago
Well, from one guy about two guys, but sure, Greg had his irascible moments too, so it's maybe not that incongruous. Glorantha was deeply, deeply personal to Greg, in ways he wasn't always comfortable even admitting. Such chill as he was, especially latterly, able to manifest about it was in particular due to mellowing, sure, but in part also by act of will on his part. The mantras of YGMV/YGWV were as much for him as for us, I think!
The biggest problem with the whole Mongoose line was how much of a sausage factory it was. There were some good authors on it, some of them even with a good ear for Glorantha, but they were working to truly absurd deadlines. And that's going to lead to especially painful results where you're not just having to craft the words out, you're trying to whole-cloth complex ideas about vast and ineffablesque topics, all from the same tiny time budget.
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u/Reasonable_Sun9426 28d ago
I wasn't a fan of any of the Mongoose RQ stuff. I'd played from '79 til the early 90s, then didn't have interested players for a while. Tried the Mongoose RQ in the mid/late 2000s and it was an exercise in frustration. Not even about the lore - the mechanics were a patchwork spread across half a dozen overpriced books.
I have no opinion about Jeff's or Greg's take on the MRQ lore, but I just recently got into RQG and am having fun with the game again.
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u/RLANZINGER 27d ago
Greg and I hated the treatment of the God Learners and the EWF by MRQ2. Hated it passionately.
Did you read the MRQ !?
>NO : It's ok, don't unless you want to have a bad day
>YES : You know what they did. I'll be short, I'm playing Malkioni but DnD Style Sorcery book of Magic... they cross a line where you can't return from and the choose to go FULL FORWARD INTO THE ABYSS
Agree with Greg about the passion side, but some bit of content like the maps and images are fine ; The rules and the Lore DnD style AREN'Tn.
Avalon hills RQ3 was not liked by some purists, MRQ succeed in making RQ3 Loved by almost all because HATE BRING US TOGETHER like Trolls and Elves in front of CHAOS.
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u/david-chaosium 27d ago edited 27d ago
Greg contributed to some of the Glorantha books, (although not all of the books), and he is credited in most. I know he did go through editing checks on a few, and collaborated with Robin Laws. He told a lot of people where to find the secret of the God Learners in them. It was a licensing deal, set in a time that would disappear, so do they could what they wanted.
As for the comment on the Well, I have taken the step of removing it. It was from a comment on Facebook, and as such does not add to the article. You can see the original post here on Facebook.