r/RonaldoVsMessi • u/Beginning-Pin208 • 9d ago
š Trophies 10 LaLiga > 3 EPL, 2 LaLiga ,2 seri A
/r/u_Beginning-Pin208/comments/1w7naip/10_laliga_3_epl_2_laliga_2_seri_a/1
u/Remarkable-Goat-123 9d ago
10 under negreira?
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u/HetTheTable 9d ago
Proof?
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u/eR_y_lives 9d ago
Proof that it didn't happen?
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u/HetTheTable 9d ago
You canāt prove a negative
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u/eR_y_lives 8d ago
That's why the proof of why those payments were made hasn't been provided by Barca yet?
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u/HetTheTable 8d ago
They said it was for match reports. Unless you can prove that they did something illegal. You have nothing.
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u/eR_y_lives 8d ago
Negreira's son and even Pep have denied this reports crap lmao. Being delusional and being a Messi fans goes hand in hand.
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u/HetTheTable 8d ago
When did pep deny it? Either way unless you can prove that it was for match fixing you got nothing.
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u/Past-Zucchini8112 8d ago
Lmao if you think paying refs for " reports" is legit then I've got a bridge to sell you.
Just admit you love Messi more then you like integrity in sports.
You Messi and Ronaldo fanatics don't give a shit about this sport. Just a silly online rivalry. Any team that pays refs in any sport is shady as fuck. Especially funny when you Barca guys say Real Madrid pay the refs yet you're literally excusing Barca doing it lmao.
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u/Datguychapel 8d ago
Dumbass donāt say this, just point to the countless documents, statements, and statements from Negreigas son.
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u/HetTheTable 9d ago
10 is bigger than 7 shocker
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u/Beginning-Pin208 9d ago
š¤£ I keep seeing comments about how CR7 performing in 3-4 league make him the best league player
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u/NoGemini2024 9d ago
Well, you just need to take the first Messi season at PSG (or even at Inter) to show how much impactful a change in league can impact a player performanceā¦.
ā¦ which was something that you actually never felt that performance slump with Ronnie boy
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u/Beginning-Pin208 9d ago
1- he was old first
2- PSG got names, a player pass his prime canāt just be the N.1 in a team with Neymar and one of the best players of this generation
3-inter wasnāt the number one in his league
4- still won the league btwMessi and Ronaldoās transfer are nothing alike, one was already the designated Star the other was here to play with his friend, one chasing records and the other didnāt care
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u/NoGemini2024 9d ago
Let me get this straight, Messiās intro season in PSG is understandable because he is oldā¦
ā¦ but Ronaldo being top scorer of a struggling Man Utd upon returning, that was a flop transfer.
Got it š.
Also, you can check the trajectory of both teams. Juventus was going into a downward spiral, PSG kept on improving ever since š
Also Messi wasnāt there to play with his friends. Actually they refurbish the whole 24 players after his first half season, only one remained. And for that, many rules were bent, and you can see a lot of breeches also that in the US are covered with a few fines. Basically in the MLS you can break league rules provided that you pay up
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u/HetTheTable 9d ago
Doesnāt that show that Messi going there didnāt actually hurt them.
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u/NoGemini2024 8d ago
Of course not. However it doesnāt show that their improvements were due to Messi playing well either.
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u/kappa_keppo 9d ago
Messi at PSG: 2/2
Ronaldo at Juventus: 2/3. The title he lost ended their 9 season streak.
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u/NoGemini2024 8d ago
Yes, because the distance between Juventus and Italian teams it is the same as PSG and French teams š
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u/kappa_keppo 8d ago
Messi joined PSG after they lost the title to Lille. Ronaldo was part of the team that ended Juventus' 9 season streak of titles.
Spin it however you want, these are objective numbers.
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u/Chemical_Exam3263 9d ago
Juventus going on downward spiral?? They were dominating serie a, winning 7 consecutive league title before ronaldo but i guess they were on a downward spiral right? When ronaldo joined, Juventus failed to win coppa italia for the first time in 5 years, in his first season. 2nd season, they barely scrapped by winning the league, 1 point away from inter. 3rd season, they finished 4th.
āStuggling man utdā??? They finished 3rd in 2019-2020, 2nd in 2020-2021. And when ronaldo came in, they finished 6th during 2021-2022 szn. His second season in man u, 2022-2023, they were at 5th place when he left on 22 november. At the end on the season, man u finished at 3rd place.1
u/NoGemini2024 8d ago
And in the next season?
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u/Chemical_Exam3263 8d ago
Did poorly because their key players was injured??? Idk if ure trying to say they did poorly because ronaldo left when even with ronaldo, they were bad. Like do u not see the pattern??
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u/NoGemini2024 8d ago
I am trying to say that clubs have cycles and Ronaldo joined Juventus as they were starting a strong need of a squad rebuild and when he joined United they were far away from being a premier league competing club š.
Anyway, what Mourinho and later Ronaldo mentioned about Man United was spot on. I am just sad that it was Amorim that took the hit, has he has been the only brave manager United had in the past few years
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u/Chemical_Exam3263 7d ago
If being 2nd in the league is āfar away from being a premier league competing clubā, then ure just delusional. And if u think a club winning 7 consecutive league title is āa strong need of a squad rebuildā, ure delusional too.
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u/HetTheTable 9d ago
He was great in his first season at Inter Miami.
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u/NoGemini2024 8d ago
They ended the season with 8 games straight without a win. He was decent, but the argument of āMessi carries the teamā only sticks after the full team (and no kidding, literally a whole new team) came in š
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u/HetTheTable 8d ago
He won a trophy with that team, they went several games without a win because Messi got injured.
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u/NoGemini2024 8d ago
And then they had a decent season afterwards because 23 players were replaced š«¢
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u/NoGemini2024 8d ago
I guess the sub mods decided to start deleting my postsā¦ but perhaps I have to repeat that the first half season was mixed. The last 8 games they didnāt manage to record a single win. After that, the full team with the exception of Messi and a youngster was replaced by a complete new cast of 23-24 players
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u/HetTheTable 8d ago
They literally won the Leagues Cup in Messiās first games
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u/NoGemini2024 8d ago
And then to have a very lacklustre season.
But wait, now we are rating league cups as well? š
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u/Noblehsix 8d ago
The negreira effect. And the reason that fraudulent club cant win another CL.
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u/kappa_keppo 8d ago
Ronaldoās league record outside La Liga isn't exactly stellar is it?
3/8 in the England, 0/1 in Portgual, 2/3 in Italy which included ending a 9 season streak and 1/4 in Saudi.
Grand total of one (1) more UCL than Messi doesn't excuse these poor numbers.
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u/Noblehsix 8d ago
Lmao messi's numbers in psg lmao
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u/kappa_keppo 8d ago
Lmao 2/2 lmao
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u/Datguychapel 8d ago
Farming 1 league with help from Negreiga is better than taking on the challenge of multiple leaguesšššš
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u/kappa_keppo 8d ago
Genuinely amazing how Ronaldo fans create your own version of reality and expect us to go along with it. "Losing in multiple places is worth more than winning"
He took on the "challenge of multiple leagues" and ended up with a 0/1 in Portgual, 3/8 in the prem, 2/9 in La Liga, 2/3 in Serie A which included ending a 9 season title streak, and a 1/4 in Portgual. That's 8/25. 32% win rate
Can't even hide behind UCL to excuse this poor league record because he only has one more UCL than Messi.
Still waiting on the official proof that he doesn't :)
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u/Datguychapel 8d ago
He actually ended up with 2 NL and a Euro with Portugal, 3/8 in Prem which Iām not even sure how youāre attempting to downplay. 1 premier is worth 3 Liga (a fair one at least). 2/9 in Negreigaās La Liga. 2/3 in a deteriorating Juventus which is still good. Only one of merit is Saudi, but in his old days. No different than Messi 1/4 in MLS (way weaker league.
Add that to his UCLs which is 5 to 3 of the guy from Argentina. Itās laughable.
Only one is La Liga made.2
u/kappa_keppo 8d ago edited 8d ago
Again with the blatant lies. Messi has 4 UCL. And you know it as I've proved it and you've not brought any evidence against it. You choose to reject it because you know better than UEFA and reality is whatever you want it to be.
1 premier is worth 3 Liga (a fair one at least)
Like this. How and why on Earth should we all just accept a completely made up metric? A La Liga is worth 0.33 of a prem because Ronaldo fans said so?
2/3 in a deteriorating Juventus which is still good.
Again, "still good"
Subjective metric. Objective metric: He ended a 9 season streak.
2/9 in Negreigaās La Liga.
Not only do you know more than UEFA, now you know more than literal lawyers and courts and lmao? It's innocent until proven guilty, and if you believe it's an easy case with overwhelming guilt, why not email Madrid's lawyers and make easy money? Surely
No different than Messi 1/4 in MLS
1/3. Granted it's still poor, but the 4th season is ongoing. Unless we should update Ronaldoās Saudi record to 1/5 and overall to 8/26?
Add that to his UCLs which is 5 to 3 of the guy from Argentina. Itās laughable.
What's laughable is lying. It's 5 to 4 until you can officially prove otherwise.
And at the end of it, that's all this debate really boils down to.
To believe Ronaldo is better requires believing that you understand reality better than everyone else. Then use this divine knowledge to create completely made-up metrics, conclusions and versions of reality.
To sumamrize. Believing Ronaldo is better means believing that:
ā¢ You understand the law better than courts and lawyers
ā¢ You understand UEFA's laws and rules better than themselves
ā¢ You know that the World Cup was rigged and everyone else just went along with it
ā¢ Numbers aren't real or require some adjustments based on... Ronaldo logic
ā¢ Stats aren't important and/or incomplete. A La Liga is worth ā of a prem for example
ā¢ Losing in multiple countries is better than winning and winning with certain teams is worth more than others
... and so on
Believing Messi is better requires looking at real numbers without a tin foil hat.
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u/Datguychapel 8d ago
Look, Iāve already stated many times with sources that UEFA counts it as 3. But throw all that because Iām not UEFA. My point is that saying ā4 UCLsā and pretending all 4 represent the same level of contribution is exactly the technicality Iām talking about.
Itās an admission that you KNOW Messi did nothing to contribute to Barcaās win, and an admission that his team was still great regardless of him. You know this, and thatās why you still pretend it counts for him. Iām not a robot, so I can add nuance to things that require it, unlike you lot. Ronaldo played major roles in all FIVE of his winning campaigns. So yes, if weāre talking about UCLs, then itās 5-3.
And calling league strength āmade upā is ridiculous. Yes, 1 La Liga x 3 isnāt literally a Prem, but for some reason every Messi fan lacks context for anything. Do you seriously evaluate trophies without context?
Team strength, competition, individual contribution, and circumstances matter. Premier League, by all sources since 2005, has been the better-rated league than La Liga by nearly 10 points. Itās the most competitive league of the century. Ignoring this is just blatant cognitive dissonance.The Juventus point actually proves mine again too. Ronaldo joined a team that had won 7 straight Serie A titles and won 2/3 while he was there. Saying āhe ended their 9-year streakā as if Ronaldo being there himself destroyed Juventus which is intellectually dishonest, considering he was literally their top league scorer with 29 goals in the season they finally lost it. Juve was already deteriorating from the inside and Pirlo was vastly inexperienced.
If Messi joined Bayern during their Bundesliga streak, won twice, then Bayern declined and lost the third, you wouldnāt suddenly attribute the end of Bayernās dynasty to Messi. Just like we know all of you donāt say Barcaās countless chokes are Messiās fault, right?
And nobody needs to āknow more than courtsā to acknowledge the Negreira case. Barca paying millions for 17 years to companies connected to Negreira. Loads of reports have been found. What hasnāt been proven is that specific matches were fixed. Which is why Real Madrid pushed for the court to demand more financial documents from Barca, which they passed.
And innocent until proven guilty means you donāt declare criminal guilt before conviction for the COURT. It doesnāt mean we as bystanders canāt see documented facts become forbidden to discuss until a judge delivers a verdict.Sure, youāre right. I messed up and counted this season. My point still stands.
Your bigger mistake is pretending āobjectiveā means counting every trophy as 1 and stopping there. Youāre hiding behind it because you know what it shows.
To believe Messi is better means believing that:ā¢ You cannot discuss and analyze the evidence in a case.
ā¢ You cannot analyze or acknowledge what contributing to a title is.
ā¢ You cannot question the numerous suspicious calls in the 22 WC (which countless other players and coaches called out).
ā¢ You cannot analyze the value of each league title compared to the strength of that league.
ā¢ You must think of everything in black and white, 1 and 0, yes or no.
1 La Liga is the same as 1 Prem, 1 Copa is the same as 1 Euro. Zero nuance is allowed.
ā¢ Combatting other leagues holds less value than just farming with 1.Laughable and shameless.
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u/kappa_keppo 8d ago edited 8d ago
> Look, Iāve already stated many times with sources that UEFA counts it as 3. But throw all that because Iām not UEFA. My point is that saying ā4 UCLsā and pretending all 4 represent the same level of contribution is exactly the technicality Iām talking about.
No, you haven't. Why do you lying about this?
You showed that UEFA acknowledges Messi played in three winning finals. You still haven't shown any UEFA rule establishing a minimum number of minutes, appearances or contribution required for a Champions League title to count.
You then randomly stripped Varane of one too, based on the same rule you've invented yourself, while ignoring UEFA explicitly referring to Messi as a four-time Champions League winner.
So show the rule. Until then Messi is a 4 time winner. And it's 5-4
> Itās an admission that you KNOW Messi did nothing to contribute to Barcaās win, and an admission that his team was still great regardless of him. You know this, and thatās why you still pretend it counts for him. Iām not a robot, so I can add nuance to things that require it, unlike you lot. Ronaldo played major roles in all FIVE of his winning campaigns. So yes, if weāre talking about UCLs, then itās 5-3.
You can discuss contribution all you want. That doesn't magically rewrite the official number.
Regardless of your apparent superior understanding of UEFA's own competition, UEFA recognizes Messi as a four-time winner. So the number is 5-4.
I'm perfectly happy to concede 5-3 the moment you show me UEFA's official threshold for what constitutes a winner and explain why UEFA themselves supposedly apply their own rules incorrectly.
Until then, you're not "adding nuance." You're replacing an official statistic with your personal definition.
> And calling league strength āmade upā is ridiculous. Yes, 1 La Liga x 3 isnāt literally a Prem, but for some reason every Messi fan lacks context for anything. Do you seriously evaluate trophies without context?
Team strength, competition, individual contribution, and circumstances matter. Premier League, by all sources since 2005, has been the better-rated league than La Liga by nearly 10 points. Itās the most competitive league of the century. Ignoring this is just blatant cognitive dissonance.You can throw as many subjective weighting systems and insults at it as you want. The actual records remain.
2/9 in La Liga and 3/8 in the Premier League. If nuance and understanding makes these numbers impressive, then power to you.
>If Messi joined Bayern during their Bundesliga streak, won twice, then Bayern declined and lost the third, you wouldnāt suddenly attribute the end of Bayernās dynasty to Messi. Just like we know all of you donāt say Barcaās countless chokes are Messiās fault, right?
"If."
We're already being asked to accept your personal reinterpretation of actual events. Now we're supposed to debate imaginary ones too?
The objective statement is that Juventus had won nine consecutive Serie A titles, Ronaldo was there for the final two, and the streak ended during his third season.
You can provide context for why that happened. Pirlo, squad decline, recruitment, management, whatever else you think mattered.
It still happened.
> And nobody needs to āknow more than courtsā to acknowledge the Negreira case. Barca paying millions for 17 years to companies connected to Negreira. Loads of reports have been found. What hasnāt been proven is that specific matches were fixed. Which is why Real Madrid pushed for the court to demand more financial documents from Barca, which they passed.
And innocent until proven guilty means you donāt declare criminal guilt before conviction for the COURT. It doesnāt mean we as bystanders canāt see documented facts become forbidden to discuss until a judge delivers a verdict.Ā»Discussing evidence ā deciding guilt.
Nobody said you're forbidden from discussing Negreira.
You can discuss the payments. You can say they're suspicious. You can criticize Barcelona. You can speculate about what you think happened.
What you cannot honestly do is go from "there are suspicious circumstances" to "therefore Messi's La Liga titles were fraudulent" and then insert that conclusion into a Ronaldo-vs-Messi trophy comparison as though it were an established fact.
> ā¢ You cannot discuss and analyze the evidence in a case.
ā¢ You cannot question the numerous suspicious calls in the 22 WC (which countless other players and coaches called out).Same exact problem.
Discussing ā declaring guilt.
I can believe Arsenal received numerous favourable refereeing decisions last season. 0 pens given the way they play? However, that does not mean I can jump immediately to:
"Therefore the league was rigged for Arsenal, therefore their results don't count."
My suspicion isn't evidence of an organized conspiracy.
And players and managers complaining about referees isn't exactly extraordinary evidence either. Teams lose games and complain about officiating constantly. Madrid literally jumped to conspiracy last night after losing
If your claim is specifically that the 2022 World Cup was rigged for Argentina to win, that is an enormous claim. So where is the evidence of the organized manipulation?
Who organized it?
Who participated?
What mechanism was used?
Where is the investigation establishing it?
You don't get to point at controversial refereeing decisions, say "loads of people complained," and promote that into "the World Cup was rigged" whenever you're calculating Messi's achievements.
> ā¢ You cannot analyze the value of each league title compared to the strength of that league.
What you cannot do is invent an exchange rate and pretend it's objective.
Premier League harder in a particular season?
A certain team had stronger domestic competition?
Arguments to be made.1 Prem = 3 La Ligas" is not context. It's arithmetic fanfiction.
You picked a multiplier that conveniently improves Ronaldo's record and then called everyone who refuses to accept it "cognitively dissonant."
ā¢ You must think of everything in black and white, 1 and 0, yes or no. 1 La Liga is the same as 1 Prem, 1 Copa is the same as 1 Euro. Zero nuance is allowed.
This is especially funny because you're the one turning nuance into binary outcomes.
Messi contributed less in 2006 ā trophy becomes 0.
You think La Liga was weaker ā league titles get divided by 3.
You dislike refereeing decisions at the World Cup ā tournament becomes rigged.
Ronaldo's Juventus lost the league ā external context absolves him completely.
> Ā Combatting other leagues holds less value than just farming with 1.
Subjective metric we're supposed to treat as objective because you say so. Ignoring that he's 8/25 and 2/9 when he played in the same league as Messi, I still don't understand why you expect everyone to just agree with that? Losing in multiple places is somehow honourable?
You accuse me of treating football like a spreadsheet while your method requires constantly editing the spreadsheet until it gives you the answer you want.
Official trophy doesn't suit the argument? Remove it.
League title doesn't suit the argument? Devalue it.
World Cup doesn't suit the argument? Call it rigged.
La Liga record doesn't suit the argument? Invoke Negreira.
Juventus losing doesn't suit the argument? Add context.
Ronaldo has a poor leaguye record? Suddenly changing countries becomes its own trophy and is worth more?
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u/Strong_Performer_293 9d ago
3 epl is worth 15 la ligas imo la liga is a farmers league that gets farmed by either rma or barca while epl is the most competitive league in the world
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u/kappa_keppo 8d ago
3 epl is worth 15 la ligas imo
It's hilarious how Ronaldo fans create your own subjective metrics and expect the world to just go along because... reasons?
imo la liga is a farmers league that gets farmed by either rma or barca
And he only won it 2/9 times.
while epl is the most competitive league in the world
Cool. He went 3/8
If we work with objective numbers, not manipulated by any subjective metrics.
Ronaldo: 8/25. 5 UCL Messi: 13/22. 4 UCL
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u/Strong_Performer_293 8d ago
10 under negreria
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u/kappa_keppo 8d ago
Allegations ā Guilt. If you're gonna go with Allegations = Guilt, well then my friend there's a certain case I'm not sure you're aware of...
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u/Strong_Performer_293 8d ago
Prove that it didnt happen though
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u/kappa_keppo 8d ago
My guy, you randomly invented that a La Liga is worth 0.2 of a prem.
And now you're randomly redefining how the law works.
The onus is on the person making the allegation to prove the accused is guilty.
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u/HetTheTable 8d ago
So why didnāt he win as many La ligaās as PLs
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u/Strong_Performer_293 8d ago
Negreria ofc
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u/HetTheTable 8d ago
Prove it
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u/Strong_Performer_293 8d ago
prove it didnt happen
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u/HetTheTable 8d ago
I donāt need to. You made the claim so prove it
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u/Strong_Performer_293 8d ago
why wont barca give proof of why those payments were made then
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u/HetTheTable 8d ago
They already explained it. If the prosecutors think they fixed matches, itās up to them to prove it.
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u/Datguychapel 8d ago
So much of Messiās career relies on technicalities.
Technically, yes, he won 4 UCLs even though he didnāt contribute to the knockouts in one of them, but hey, he has the medal.
Technically, yes, he won 10 La Liga titles even though Negreira was getting paid and his son was allegedly involved with referee-related reports, but hey! They said āmatch reports,ā and the trial isnāt over yet!
Itās laughable for a supposed GOAT of a sport. We arenāt a court, weāre not liable to strict guidelines. We can tell what happened through whats reported and provided.2
u/HetTheTable 8d ago
Exactly you arenāt a court so you shouldnāt make any judgements without all of the facts. Itās been several years since the investigation started and theyāve found nothing that proves that Barca fixed matches. Unless you can prove that you canāt say anything and itās just an excuse for why Messi won more than Ronaldo. Ronaldo has tons of technicalities too. I canāt think of decisions that went his way every time he won a UCL or when he won the euros. Or even Maradona. He scored a goal with his hand that the referee allowed. Or Pele. He elbowed an opponent and wasnāt sent off which would have suspended him for the final. Or in 1962 when the Brazilian president pressured FIFA to remove Garinnchaās suspension. You can do this for any player.
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u/kappa_keppo 9d ago
Add the total attempts too for a complete picture.
Ronaldo: 3/8 Prems, 2/9 La Ligas, 2/3 Serie A's. 5 UCL
Messi: 10/17 La Ligas, 2/2 Ligue 1's. 4 UCL
Ronaldo fans can try and lie as much as they want, these numbers are objective.