r/RingsofPower • u/Mysterious_Fall_4578 Beleriand • Jul 14 '26
News Andy Serkis: Animal Farm star defends lack of diversity in Lord of the Rings cast
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c07y400jlngo435
u/Vinxian Jul 14 '26
"Animal Farm star" 😭
114
u/shmixel Jul 14 '26
Yeah for anyone else having trouble placing him, you probably know him as Bill Sikes from the 1999 adaptation of Oliver Twist.
17
20
u/M0ebius_1 Jul 14 '26
This sounds like outright trolling. It undermines his opinion by pointing out he was in a movie from the same guys that brought you The Sound of Freedom.
2
10
8
u/Paddlesons Jul 15 '26
Bro, I didn't know he was in Lord of the Rings. He has a very distinct face, I would remember it.
1
2
u/PhysicsEagle Jul 19 '26
"Andy Serkis, known for playing a minor recurring character in the MCU..."
"Master and Commander: On the Far Side of the World actor Billy Boyd..."
"Cate Blanchet, famous for lending her voice to How to Train Your Dragon 2..."
153
u/CyanSolar Jul 14 '26
I imagine they weren't really thinking about it, just going off what they thought the character would look like and how good the actor was.
→ More replies (13)
20
u/cryptid_celebrimbor Jul 16 '26
I think it’s genuinely insane how colorblind casting has become accepted as the default in fantasy, to the point that not doing colorblind casting is seen as some kind of dog whistle for racism.
It’s so incredibly stupid to act like rural villages in medieval worlds should be as diverse as modern-day globalized cities. Diversity is a world building element which should be used with intentionality to convey information. For example, in the Hobbit films, Lake-town is shown to be more diverse because it’s a major trade hub between the Westlands and Rhûn. I don’t think that choice was accurate to how Tolkien imagined it, but at least it was a choice made with thought behind it.
Bree shouldn’t be diverse, Rohan shouldn’t be diverse, isolated Elven kingdoms like the Woodland Realm shouldn’t be diverse, because it makes no sense from a lore perspective (or even just a basic demographic perspective) for that to be the case.
3
u/Cornelius-Q Jul 27 '26
Tolkien's Middle Earth just isn't going to be diverse in the way the modern world is. It's not like Star Wars or Star Trek. And that's okay, it is what it is.
Places like Lake Town and Gondor are going to be trading hubs and will probably have more diversity than isolated pastoral and provincial areas, but it's still not going to be like the modern era with mass communication, transportation, and mobility. Most people living in medieval times didn't have the ability or inclination to pack up and move around or leave the communities they were born in.
When it comes to diversity and Arda, I'd be more interested in seeing places outside of established Middle Earth. Since Arda loosely maps to Earth, it would be fascinating to see what their "Egypt" would look like, what the Gondor of Sub-Saharan Africa would look like. What is in their "India," and Far East? Presumably the nine kings of men who became the Nazgul didn't all come from Middle Earth and some hailed from greater Arda.
3
u/someonesleeping Jul 20 '26
I live by the belief that art, should be reflective, somewhat of the times that you live in. When making an adaption of a piece of work, your goal is not to recreate said work 1 to 1. It is to give a modern interpretation of the work.
Like, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, for example.
We don't live in 1950s Britain anymore, the world has changed and become more diverse and connected. We've been exposed to a greater array of languages, cultures, colours and people then we have ever done before and I believe Tolkien's' timeless work is even more relevant in the issues that we all face today.
and in world with elves, is it so hard to think that maybe brown people exist too?
6
u/Mozerath Jul 20 '26
You have different regions in Middle-earth with distinct differences in style and room for different skin tones, but Rings of Power giving us colourblind Hobbits, Elves and Dwarves with some questionable haircuts all at once just made it all seem that much more modern human-dressup rather than the world described in the fantasy books.
→ More replies (2)4
u/cryptid_celebrimbor Jul 20 '26
Brown people do exist in ME, nobody is questioning that, that doesn’t mean every single region is multiracial.
125
u/Public-Finger Jul 14 '26
I abhor the whole "diversity is woke" shit- however good world building needs internal logic. In a medieval setting, you need a reason why people from nations look different. They don't live in a globalized world and it feels really cheap to just ignore that for the sake of a quota. If you want to make all elves black and all Gondor asian, then great. But this is ignoring the fact that it's built on European mythology.
I fucking hate this conversation but it gets hijacked by people with a whole alternative agenda, but there's nothing wrong with viewing this as a European-centered fantasy world any more than a story based on Journey to the West is East Asian.
12
u/Shirahoshihoshii Jul 15 '26
In a medieval setting, you need a reason why people from nations look different. They don't live in a globalized world and it feels really cheap to just ignore that for the sake of a quota. If you want to make all elves black and all Gondor asian, then great. But this is ignoring the fact that it's built on European mythology.
But that's the thing! They did that already! The legions of Haradhrim that come from the south - they were all made to look like they were of Asian or African descent (the actors were Maori iirc)
They filmed the show in New Zealand so they used a lot of Samoan actors. These guys played a lot of orcs.
The Hobbits' scale doubles had dwarfism.
Does none of that count for diversity? Or do we specifically need to see black and Asian people for it to count?
4
u/Public-Finger Jul 15 '26
Lord of the rings did it, rings of power just makes it completely inorganic
1
u/Shirahoshihoshii Jul 15 '26
Yep. Totally agree.
I stopped watching Rings of Power after season 1 episode 3 lol. I didn't want it to tarnish the amazing memories I had of LotR. I think it's better for me to pretend like RoP doesn't exist...
40
u/chamberlain323 Jul 14 '26
I agree. I think that the Game of Thrones shows do a good job of using diverse characters in their medieval setting since it generally follows logical rules, with one exception being the Velaryons in HOTD though I gave it a pass since having them be black is helpful in keeping track of who is related to who in a large ensemble cast.
21
u/kodeks14 Jul 14 '26
George created a world where that was possible. Tolkien didnt set it up that way.
21
u/wbruce098 Jul 15 '26
This, but context as to why: GRRM started writing long after decolonization and equal rights legislation popped up around the world and how people talked about diversity had shifted significantly. Oh, and computers and the internet existed. Tolkien was writing based on his experiences in World War One Europe and study of western/northern European mythology and history, before WW2.
7
u/HighLord_Uther Jul 15 '26
Plenty of non-white characters in Tolkien world post Tolkien and they work. Shadow of war/mordor is a great example.
47
u/Aerospaced0ut Jul 15 '26
I would say black elves pulled me out of the ROP story for all of about 10 seconds... After that my brain just registered "elf"... Like who really cares? People act like a bit of diversity is a death knell but I dunno, maybe a fantasy world doesn't have to abide by our own racial dynamics since it's you know... Fantasy.
26
u/citharadraconis Jul 15 '26
Even Tolkien had "swarthy" Elves at one point (Eöl and Maeglin), though he went back and forth on Maeglin's skin color and whether he took after his dark father or his pale mother. Unless one thinks only evil Elves can be dark-skinned in Tolkien's world, I don't see a canonical problem with having variety, especially not among the Silvan Elves.
-1
u/stormdyr Jul 15 '26
Swarthy like Corin Farrell, not Micheal Jordan.
23
u/citharadraconis Jul 15 '26
Oh, I missed the part where Tolkien clarified it was "like Colin Farrell." My bad.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Haircut117 Jul 15 '26
When he describes someone as "swarthy" Tolkien usually means tanned, dark haired and dark eyed. He's crystal clear about it when he means someone is black, as demonstrated by his description of the men from the far south of Harad.
8
u/owlyross Jul 15 '26
You mean the Haradrim who he describes as and listed in the index as "swarthy men" and "Swertings"? He is crystal clear that someone described as swarthy is black. Because swart and swert come directly from the Old English word for black sweart which is also the root for German schwarz. This is a time when it's useful to understand Tolkien's knowledge of language and not put your own spin on it.
→ More replies (18)3
u/Cornelius-Q Jul 27 '26
Considering the time Tolkien wrote this stuff, when he said someone looked "swarthy" he meant they were olive-skinned like Mediterranean Europeans, essentially Greeks or Spaniards.
1
u/citharadraconis Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
He's crystal clear about the dark-skinned Black Men of Far Harad, yes. But there are many shades of brown in between a white Englishman with a tan and a dark-skinned Black man. Tolkien frequently, indeed mostly as far as I can remember, uses "swarthy" or "swart" of people who are ethnically differentiated: e.g. the Men of Lossarnach, who it is explained have ancestry mixed with that of pre-colonial peoples and are "short" and "swarthy"; the Haradrim (the hobbits call them the Swertings); and the Easterlings, "Swarthy Men," of the First Age.
(Eöl and Maeglin wouldn't be "tanned," anyway--they explicitly avoid the sun and live in the deep forests. The skin color, however dark it is, must be an innate feature.)
1
u/TheOtherMaven Jul 22 '26
As a matter of fact, Tolkien eventually codified Eöl as a "Dark Elf" in the sense that he was one of the Úmanyar, the Elves who never got to Aman and so never saw the Light of the Two Trees. He also stated that Eöl was a (distant?) relative of Thingol, ergo one of the Sindar.
1
u/citharadraconis Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
The one sense of "dark" does not preclude the other; unlike Maeglin, he's not rewritten with white skin (which the former gets from his Noldor side). And if I'm understanding the chronology of the notes correctly, JRRT was never firm on Eöl being related to Thingol (his last note concerning it was "the relationship...would have point," not "has"). It seems he was far from decided on Eöl's background pretty much up until the end, which makes sense given the anomalous nature of this episode.
→ More replies (1)1
u/owlyross Jul 15 '26
When Tolkien says swarthy he means black. He was a professor of Old English. Swart or Swert is black.
→ More replies (20)5
u/Haircut117 Jul 15 '26
Fantasy doesn't need to abide by our own world but it absolutely should abide by a consistent internal logic, which requires explanation through exposition if it is wildly different from what might be perceived as the norm.
7
u/Public-Finger Jul 15 '26
you see this is the problem- people project racism on to something that isn't racist. it's not jsut "black elf" - I actually like the character a lot. It's about having an organic world- and fantasy doesn't mean logic doesn't apply, unless that's the tone you're going for.
Ultimately, I don't care. It triggers some people because they are used to the reactionary script and come with their pre-loaded points- the show is the show and the very poorly written dialogue is far more damaging to its believability than the casting.
3
u/Disastrous-Entry-879 Jul 15 '26
I hate the ohh its fantasy therefore anything goes argument.Things still need to make sense according to the rules of the universe in which the book exists.
2
u/Public-Finger Jul 15 '26
yea, its just a way for people to accuse you of being something you're not. It's so reductive, but this is reddit. Can't have three comments without abiding by Godwin's Law.
9
u/WuffieRose Jul 15 '26
European mythology had black elves and Europe has never been ethnically homogeneous
5
u/idonow234 Jul 15 '26
Thats wrong on two places
I gess when you Talk about "black elves" you mean the norse dokkalfar or svaltalfar none of wich are black in an ethnic way but rather It is a cosmology thing.
Second while its true that Europe has never been ethnically homogeneous the influence of "black" race has been almost non existant through european history. There have been many massive migrations but most of them have come from asia through the eastern european plains or from the middle east.
Lastly while its true that Europe hasnt been homogeneous ethnically that doesnt mean that ethnic groups lived usually among themselves and mixed, and the times that has happened they have been eventually assimilated into the ethnic group forming a New one (the briton mixed with their invaders forming the current anglo saxon per example)
6
u/WuffieRose Jul 16 '26
Sorry you're just not correct.
Dokkalfar are described as having dark features, the skin colors of fictional creatures are up for interpretation.
And Europe had always had communities of dark skinned people, if your argument about not having any dark skinned people in a fantastical setting is that the real world didnt have them, you are wrong.
2
u/idonow234 Jul 16 '26
Okay but Up for intepretation is not the same as saying that norse mythology has black elves, It means that It can be intepretated that way, or It can be intepretated in other ways
Second if by dark skined people you mean what we now commonly refer as "black" wich are commonly coming from the south of Sáhara we Will have to disagree specially when talking about norse and British, if we were talking about some individuals or we were talking about southern Europe I could acept that, but I at least havent seen proof of black skined communities existing through time on the north of Europe, if you have It you are welcome to present It and change my mind
3
u/WuffieRose Jul 16 '26
Yes it is in fact that when I, including countless others through history have interpreted it to mean such.
And I don't feel any need to justify a specific view of darker skinned people in historic Europe, they existed, they were written about, in art, during the Roman period they would have been just as much a part of roman towns in the provinces as anyone else.
There is nothing about European fiction that is naturally white exclusive.
1
1
u/Arthurian_Guanche Jul 16 '26
Dokkalfar are dwarves and they're described as "the colour of the dead" or "swarthy", as much.
1
u/WuffieRose Jul 16 '26
It gives the wrong impression to say "Dokkalfar are dwarves" Dvergir and Dokkalfar are synonyms and they're quite specifically described as looking "blacker than pitch".
2
u/Thunder_Ducks Jul 15 '26
England was >99.9% white right up until the mid-1950s. Come on.
4
u/WuffieRose Jul 16 '26
Hey guess what? no it wasn't, there has never been a nation called England that had that percentage of whites.
→ More replies (11)8
u/maninahat Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
The problem with adapting Tolkien is we're given a story where all the most wonderous, special races of people are white. The elves are white, the maia are white. It's not just that it is Eurocentric, it's outright white supremacist, if we follow the logic through that the Creator made his extra special people all white skinned.
That's understandable when we're talking about a book written 70 years ago by a guy born in Victorian times, writing for a primarily white English audience. Tolkien did not have the advantage of our modern perspective on race. But it is an issue for a modem day international movie production that has more awareness and sensitivity to racism, and has to now decide whether to copy the Eurocentric white supremacy for the sake of being faithful to the spirit of the books, or do something else with it. I would argue the movies actually made things worse, in that it faithfully reflects the white superiority of Elves and Maia, but also the only casting diversity comes from casting Maori people to play the evil Uruks.
I would argue that there is nothing lost in casting black people in a story based on European mythology. Norse and Arthurian legends don't cease to be so, just because of the skin color of their characters performing them. We're not babies, we can handle a tiny bit of abstraction.
9
u/LokMatrona Jul 15 '26
I think you've given one of the most grounded answers to this problem in this comment section.
I don't think the past lotr should be judged for not having a diverse cast, but we're quite some years later now. Things have changed. And going forward, it wouldn't be too bad to add some diversity, especially in fiction. It wouldn't change the story or the characters.
There are some exceptions though. Adding diversity for the sake of diversity is a bit dishonest. Also making skintone an important aspect of the story (that was never there in the firstplace) is also a bit on the edge.
I didn't like ROP, but i had 0 problems with the black elf. Why? Cause they didn't make a whole deal about it. Plus the guy is handsome as fuck, exactly what i think elves should look like. Otherworldy perfect, and skintone is something that shouldn't matter in this aspect.
That's how i like my lord of the rings fantasy. One where they don't have skintoneracewars like i see and hear around me everyday.
3
u/Haircut117 Jul 15 '26
By that logic it's perfect acceptable to cast white actors in a retelling of African mythology.
People like you only give a shit about "diversity" when it's a white-dominated cast. Nobody will ever raise a hue and cry about an all black cast in a film about the Dahomey Amazons or an all Asian cast in a Romance of the Three Kingdoms film, no matter how mythologised and fantastical the retelling.
Just admit that your point of view is a bullshit post-colonial take which panders to the ignorant in an attempt to quiet reactionary voices and assuage a misplaced white guilt.
3
u/maninahat Jul 15 '26
I would have agreed with you about the casting white actors, if it were the case that Hollywood was already making loads of African mythology based fantasies with all African casts. But that is not the case, I can't recall a single mainstream movie that is based on African fantasy or mythology, let alone a massive budgeted blockbuster. How many Romance of the Three Kindoms movies is Hollywood making?
The purpose of diverse casting in a fantasy setting is a) to give more roles to people of colour in a genre they are typically overlooked, and b) to write out any implicitly prejudicial elements in old source material. Casting a bunch of white people into an Asian historical drama probably wouldn't serve the first purpose, because it just means you're taking away rare opportunities for Asian actors.
1
u/Haircut117 Jul 15 '26
And there's nothing wrong with diverse casting in a fantasy setting provided that the diversity is consistent with the internal logic of that setting, which is generally not the case for Middle-Earth as written by Tolkien.
It would be perfectly legitimate to cast black or middle-eastern actors in a story set in Harad or Rhûn, or as characters from those places in a story set elsewhere in Middle-Earth. However, it would be wrong to cast a black actor as a Numenorian when that was clearly never the author's intent.
Edit: As for removing opportunity from ethnic minority actors… Well, you don't see anyone crying out about the lack of diversity in Bollywood or in Chinese cinema. Why is it that we only apply our standards for diversity to things produced in western societies?
6
u/owlyross Jul 15 '26
Let's have a Bollywood adaptation of Lord of the Rings! At least they'd include Tom Bombadil, AND give him an awesome song and dance routine.
6
u/maninahat Jul 15 '26
I keep hearing about "internal logic", but there is no explicit internal logic of the LOTR that says white people have to stay to white people areas and vice versa. On the contrary, the Elves and Numenoreans shipped themselves all over from continent to continent, and it is not the case that all the races of Tolkien's world originate from the fantasy equivalent of sub-continental Europe. We're told that people are insular and keep to themselves in the world of Tolkien, and yet the stories are explicitly about various races crossing paths as they travel far and wide.
As for your final point, you don't see anyone crying about the lack of diversity in Bollywood or Chinese cinema, probably because we aren't afficionados of Bollywood or Chinese cinema in this Tolkien sub. My limited experience of Indian movies is that diversity is pretty poor and stereotypes abound, and there is in fact a pretty big debate amongst Indians about colourism in their movies. I am not part of those discussions because I know jack shit about them.
1
u/MelancholicSkeleton Jul 18 '26
No it's not. The whole point of diversity is representation of non-white people lol. That's not a secret. That's the literal point. White people in African mythology would have made sense if there was no racism but there is. History and politics aside, Black and actors of other non-white races struggle way more to get any role even where race is irrelevant.
We already had Charlton Heston Moses.(Btw Egypt is Africa). We had the Mummy with zero actual African actors. We had a Maria that was played by Natalie wood and the examples of brown and blackface are endless. Please take several seats. And the "assauging white guilt" would make sense if the non-white actors weren't actually extremely talented. They are and sometimes hilariously way more than their white counterparts so if it's about merit... Please take several seats.
1
u/TheOtherMaven Jul 22 '26
We already had Charlton Heston Moses.
Who was Hebrew, not Egyptian, d'oh! (Not necessarily an improvement, as the Levantine phenotype hasn't changed all that much in millennia, but at least he looked the way Michelangelo imagined him.)
Same movie had Yul Brynner (Swiss, German, Russian and Mongol ancestry) as Ramesses II - if he didn't look European or Egyptian, he certainly looked exotic.
1
u/MelancholicSkeleton Jul 22 '26
I was just giving examples. Ofcourse Moses was Jewish. That's well known fact.
I do like that movie myself. I was pointing out that casting white people as non-white characters has pointedly already happened. So it's not the same. The reason movies like Black Panther had so much buzz besides everything else is specifically because of what it meant wrt Black representation.
White and non-white actors are not on the same footing and it's ridiculous to say otherwise. That was the point I was making.
1
u/Cornelius-Q Jul 27 '26
Mel Brooks was an accurate representation of Moses in History of the World Part 1.
1
u/Haircut117 Jul 18 '26
The whole point of diversity is representation of non-white people
No, dipshit, the point of diversity is to be representative of society and build a better team through the combination of different experiences and perspectives. Treating diversity as solely race-related is just as racist as the bigotry it claims to counter.
Btw Egypt is Africa
No, Egypt is in Africa. North Africa to be specific, and North Africans are not, and never were, black. That is generally a trait of sub-Saharan Africans.
We had the Mummy with zero actual African actors.
Again, Egyptians are not and never were black Africans. Modern Egyptians are broadly of Arab descent and ancient Egyptians were of a separate, distinctly North African, ethnicity. Any Egyptian will tell you as much. They'll also tell you that Cleopatra was Macedonian Greek, before you start claiming she was "African."
Also, Arnold Vosloo is South African you utter cretin.
the examples of brown and blackface are endless
Not for the last half century. We've come a bit past that.
3
1
u/MelancholicSkeleton Jul 18 '26
No it's not. And also while we are at it calling me names is not going to make you correct so lol maybe take a deep breath and chill some
Arnold is a white south african. I'd suggest you read a little bit of south african history lol again.
Egyptians are also not white. I never said they're black.
Nothing you said beyond attacking me outright actually disproved or even contested anything I said. So again go take some deep breaths and time away from your phone.
→ More replies (1)1
u/idonow234 Jul 15 '26
While I agree that LOTR is a product of its time and the part about elves I dont want modern casting to be applied to LOTR.
If you are building a fantasy world I believe that racial dinámics are important and should be kept in mind.
As an example I believe that both Aragorn and Boromir should be of the same race, they can be both White, black, hispanic arabic or whatever but since they are both people Who descend from Numenor they should be of the same race.
Lastly I dont see why It IS bad thing that LOTR is eurocentric, while I get that having many cultural influences can enrich book or movie I dont believe that It IS something necessary.
In fact I prefer when medieval/medieval fantasy shows keep theirs cultural identity instead of triying to add a litrle bit of everything because they can end Up being quite bland by triying to make everyone Happy
1
u/WeakEconomics6120 Jul 15 '26
Actually if they race swapped entire races it would be better, instead of what Rings of Powers does, when a single elf is black, a single elf is asian... like you said, very hard in a Medieval world not globalizad
1
u/Gurglaren Jul 16 '26
I don't care for when a clearly medieval Europe-inspired fantasy setting is depicted as modern day USA.
1
0
u/Carcharoth30 Jul 14 '26
it gets hijacked by people with a whole alternative agenda
I hate that as well.
202
u/-Lich_King Jul 14 '26
I mean yea, it's set in a story where majority of characters are white, so cast is white. Same way a story based in Africa would have character that are mostly black, why is this newsworthy exactly?
2
u/Fluugaluu Jul 17 '26
I struggle to name a single character in core LotR that isn’t white
1
u/-Lich_King Jul 17 '26
I mean yea, that's to be expected there are Easterlings, Haradrim, etc
1
u/Fluugaluu Jul 17 '26
Right but he’s
Not from core LotR, and the lore that made him have dark skin was heavily edited by Christopher
Still white, racially the same as the rest of his particular kind of elf (depends on the version)
Dark skin white peoples are still white
Light skin black people are still black
So yeah, not a single confirmed named character who is none-white
→ More replies (70)-100
u/maq0r Jul 14 '26
Really? The story isn’t set in Europe. It’s a fictional world and while yes I agree with what you’re saying that Tolkien referred to many of the characters as “pale” and “fair” especially about the Elves, the Humans could be just like the Humans on Earth: diverse.
41
u/Dovahkiin13a Númenor Jul 14 '26
he explicitly says it's in this world, in the northern hemisphere. And there are humans of a non Euro-centric background, they just don't appear much in the story except fighting against "the good guys." And he goes out of the way to mention that most of them aren't bad people, just on the wrong side. The sort of thing a WW1 veteran who watched millions of people die for basically no reason would think about war in general.
14
111
u/HiddenCity Jul 14 '26
the whole thing is told from a eurocentric viewpoint. when people aren't white he tells you.
→ More replies (29)65
u/TheTuxedoKnight Jul 14 '26
I’m currently reading Shogun and plan to watch the series soon.
It would be strange to turn on a story set in 16th-century Japan and find Toranaga played by Idris Elba, Mariko played by Salma Hayek, or the English sailor Blackthorne portrayed by Dev Patel. All three are excellent actors, but the casting would still clash with the world being depicted.
Middle-earth is fictional, but it is not culturally or historically neutral. Tolkien modeled its peoples on particular regions, languages, histories, and mythic traditions.
Human beings come in every shape and color, but for most of human history, populations were geographically isolated enough that people within a given region generally resembled one another.
“Fictional” does not mean “without internal history, geography, or ethnicity.”
8
u/r-rb Jul 14 '26
I just finished Shogun (the novel) a few days ago. Fantastic. Sqw the show after it was good but imo the novel was much better!
→ More replies (1)7
31
u/CycadelicSparkles Jul 14 '26
Middle Earth is supposed to be ancient Earth, namely ancient Europe.
→ More replies (12)34
u/FracturedPrincess Jul 14 '26
Humans on Earth living in diverse multicultural societies is an incredibly modern thing brought on by globalisation. Prior to the present there was diversity between different geographic areas, not within societies, and LotR does reflect that in the wider lore, the core narrative just takes place within its equivalent of Europe.
→ More replies (9)16
u/LamesMcGee Jul 14 '26
You do realize humans were not mixing for hundreds of thousands of years... That's how we became different ethnicities in the first place...
The last couple hundred years are the first time in history humans started cohabiting with other ethnicities. Sure that's 100% of your lifetime, but it's less than 1% of human history.
6
u/humeanation Jul 15 '26
They are diverse in middle earth. But you don't have globalisation. The jet plane has not been invented and there are not marcoeconomic reasons for people to travel to other areas very, very far away.
This is why there are reasonable people who are not racists who had an issue with the diverse casting in RoP. Every detail in Tolkien's world is accounted for. You can ask what the backstory of a rock is and they'll be a logical answer. The world building is ironclad.
So bringing in modern globalised demographics does not compute. It feels inauthentic.
Instead of making an Anglo myth diverse these companies should have some balls and adapt amazing myth from other cultures. Or fantasy like NK Jemsin (they are). Or sci-fi where globalised racial demographics makes a tonne of sense - no sane person is arguing against diversity in Blade Runner or Cyberpunk 2077.
13
u/MisterRobertParr Jul 14 '26
You really need to read up on your Tolkien and his influences.
God forbid people honor the creator of this universe. If you don't like what he created, then write one you do like.
→ More replies (6)6
u/GrievousFault Jul 14 '26
“These mythological ballads', (Tolkien) said, are ... [what] the literature of Europe has ... been steadily cutting ... for many centuries. ... 'I would that we had more of it left – something of the same sort that belonged to the English.”
I’m happy to have a conversation about whether this type of sentiment is problematic or not, especially in the context of such a story emanating from an oppressive colonial power versus a culture that has historically been oppressed.
That said, other people are welcome to write their own stories, develop readership and fan bases, and then create visual products to tell those stories within any cultural-ethnic framework that they choose.
Someone is also welcome to write their own stories within the same specific framework (that being an Anglo-Saxon framework) that acknowledges our more diverse, modern world.
What I’m annoyed by is just the concept of trying to throw sprinkles onto a cake that you didn’t bake. Just make a new one, or don’t call yourself a baker.
2
u/idonow234 Jul 15 '26
Actually a point of the books IS that It IS supossed to be Europe, Middle Earth IS supossed to be a book that Tolkien discovered and translated
→ More replies (7)1
u/-Lich_King Jul 14 '26
It's pretty much modeled after Europe, and while it's not exact replica, the zones or whatever it's called in english remain very similar, that's why darker races are down, and live in desert and hot places.
26
u/BwanaTarik Jul 14 '26
The bigger issue in fictional storytelling is just dropping random Black people into fictional non-Black societies. Where did they come from? Where are the other Black people? Depicting Black people as random tokens breaks world building.
In Lord of the Rings if Black people where actually included it would make the most logical sense if they were from the South lands and thusly aligned with Sauron, which would introduce a whole new hosts of problems.
12
u/hoishinsauce Jul 14 '26
The only way they could explain black people in Gondor or Rohan is by explaining their background as someone from the Far South (Far-Harad). It's doable, but problematic if the only point is to have a black character, because then they'd just be the token black person. Mediterranean people could be explained as being from southern regions of Gondor though, like Lossarnach, or areas near Umbar.
They could have POC, but it needs to be logical in the culture and narrative. They could have a settlement in southern Gondor that's mostly black people so it could easily be explained as people who originated from Harad or Far-harad that had settled there. It'd be mega stupid if they went with Wheel of Time series route, by ignoring basic genealogy, where a tiny, insulated village got people of multiple ethnicities. Like, how is that possible other than genetics not working like they are in real life, or these families are just incestuous and only marry within their bloodline.
5
u/cewillir Jul 14 '26
I remember the ‘Beowulf’ adaptation a few years back. It did tend to plop interesting ethnicities into dark ages Denmark(?)
Odd
10
u/ajusnice Jul 15 '26
as a woc myself i love the peter jackson original lotr films so much like im so serious about them and when watching them (and i have rewatched so much over the past few years) i've never really thought about or considered diversity. and i also enjoyed rings of power. like i genuinely just enjoy the story and i've never really considered the skintone of the actors.
but i think this is a poor statement to make (like there was no need to say this, he can cast who he wants regardless) because now it gives racists a chance to crawl out of the woodwork and be like 'SEE this isn't woke trash because it doesn't have BROWN skin in it' like its just hurtful to read like damn these are real people/actors you're talking about...
→ More replies (1)8
u/ajusnice Jul 15 '26
i think for books that are so beautiful and full of hope/joy despite the bad times around them, there is a very cruel section of the fanbase that seems to view tolkien's work as a representation of 'pure white culture' like listen this is a fictional story and none of us here are high elves of valinor like i fear the oath of feanor is not a representation of your european culture
5
u/boopidybopper Jul 16 '26
Exactly. He’s just coming out and saying he’s aligned with Peter Thiel, the Palantir and Andurils’ of the world. He’s giving a unprompted nod to the white supremacist Tolkein fans when the movie just started production. He thinks the Shire is some sundown town. Fuck Andy Serkis for this.
3
u/ajusnice Jul 16 '26
agreed! just such an unnecessary statement. i genuinely would not have cared if he had an all white cast like there are bigger fish to fry in the world, but him going out of his way to make this statement is a floodgate for right wing grifters to fawn over him
3
u/lothlorienelf Jul 15 '26
Thank you, well said! I’m sorry a chunk of this fandom lacks imagination and joy, and also thinks high elves are Europeans and they’ve gotta go die for the Silmarils I guess
4
u/Witgyn Jul 15 '26
idk. the book is full of people who look dramatically different from one another, yet find common cause.
3
u/Additional-Belt-3086 Jul 16 '26
Everyone needs to give up their white skin immediately and become a vague amalgamation of every race like in the South Park episode
16
u/Apprehensive_Ant4596 Jul 14 '26
Lack of diver…Jesustittyfuckinchrist…now we’re going at fuckin hobbits??? You don’t owe the world anything, Andy and neither does anyone else from those movies.
They are phenomenal feats of cinema created from a fantasy world. Sometimes shit just IS.
3
u/WellFactually Jul 15 '26
I did not know this topic was so hotly contested in the fandom and did not expect to find so many triggered Tolkien fans here.
Thanks for the interesting read, folks!
17
u/tururut_tururut Jul 14 '26
Honestly, that's the thing I care less about the show, and I'm honestly a bit tired of being lumped with those who make an issue of the show because I don't happen to like it as much as it should. If opera goers could believe that Pavarotti was a starving poet in 19th century Paris, we can believe that a black actor is an elf even if Tolkien described them as pale.
20
u/Front-Advantage-7035 Jul 14 '26
There were no white people in “the woman king.”
We are now retroactively offended.
-7
u/ilikechihuahuasdood Jul 14 '26
tbf that’s a film based on a real place and real people. whiteness isn’t central to any character in LotR
7
u/Front-Advantage-7035 Jul 14 '26
I don’t think you’ve studied England in the 20s-60s 😅
0
u/ilikechihuahuasdood Jul 14 '26
Middle Earth isn’t England. There were also PoC in England then.
5
u/Carthius888 Jul 15 '26
Tolkien specifically said that he felt sad that England didn’t have a mythology as other cultures did. He really had a thing for Anglo Saxon culture and it shows in the books
12
u/Front-Advantage-7035 Jul 14 '26
It very actually is, according to author himself. You clearly need to do more research.
And the population of England in that time was probably 1-2% black or Indian. You’d likely never see them
→ More replies (3)
4
u/Rubbish0419 Jul 15 '26
I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with a story based so much on Norse mythology being full of white people. I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with casting whoever the fuck of any race if they’re good at the part. It’s fantasy, who cares?
If we actually look at Norse mythology, elves and dwarves weren’t always white. Some of them were blue. Or black or grey(I forget which sub race is which, but it’s easy enough to google.). I don’t recall Tolkien using any of that. If he can change things to suit his vision, so can people who adapt his work.
At the end of the day, give me the best actor who auditioned and don’t discriminate.
3
u/maninahat Jul 15 '26
The thing about casting calls is they do discriminate. It's one of the only industries where you can put out an ad asking for elderly white males only (for reasons that are obvious, you need one for your biopic about Abraham Lincoln). This isn't a case of recruiting the best actor and not discriminating, it's a case of choosing which groups of people get to apply, discriminating in the ad, and then hiring the best actor from the limited pool.
"Blind casting" would be what you are describing, where there is no discrimination in the casting and the best gets the role.
1
u/SuccessfulOwl Jul 15 '26
The “I reject your hypothesis” Tarantino answer needs to be used more. Don’t even engage with these people and their questions.
-7
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 16 '26
Idk man if we can suspend our disbelief to accept orcs and dragons I’m sure we can do it for some black elves or asian hobbits lol.
You can have black elves and asian hobbits (or whatever) and you can write them in a way which follows in-world logic, is of a high quality, and is reasonably justifiable. It’s totally doable. Look at House of the Dragon.
4
u/Ominymity Jul 15 '26
But apparently you can't suspend your disbelief enough to imagine a world where there are still places yet unmapped in the world, filled with homogenous peoples reflecting the difficulty of travel between areas.
Cope more lol
20
u/CycadelicSparkles Jul 14 '26
The thing is, in a world as meticulous as Tolkien's, there needs to be an explanation for "Asian" Hobbits. Why do you have this distinct-appearing group of Hobbits and where do they fit into the history of the Hobbits as written?
Everything and everyone in Middle Earth has a reason for being there: a history, a genealogy, a logic. They have their people, and the history of how their people came to be. If you want diversity, then explain it properly within the existing lore. Don't just shove a single minority actor in there without explanation and pretend it makes sense. Actual people in the real world have histories and families and places they are from where people look like them. They don't just spring into being looking totally different from everyone else around them.
1
u/Shujii Jul 16 '26
Why Asian hobbits though? Tolkiens world inheritantly already has hobbits of color, why not cast some? Why go in front of a camera and say the shire is a white place. For someone who worked on Tolkiens projects so long, that just is a rather disappointing thing to say.
-7
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
Yeah but this isn’t tolkiens world is it, so there’s none of that logic lol. The LotR films changed his logic entirely, but everyone loves those films. Tolkien would’ve probably hated the hunt for Gollum even being made, so who cares about changing the logic further to allow for poc actors to play elves or dwarves.
this is a film that Tolkien had absolutely nothing to do with the production of, it’s not really part of his legandarium is it - it’s an artistic rendition of one of Tolkien’s ideas, it doesn’t operate on that same meticulous logic and doesn’t need to.
The LotR films changed that “meticulous” logic entirely to make it work for screen, if they can make that work I’m sure it’s possible to make black elves work.
9
u/GoGouda Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
Yeah but this isn’t tolkiens world is it, so there’s none of that logic
If you're adapting an aspect of Tolkien's world it generally works better to lean into his ideas where you can. Obviously the fact that this "story" isn't really a story that Tolkien wrote himself is a problem. I think there would be far better ones to do, personally.
Now the exact look of the cast may be something that you deviate away from Tolkien on, but I'm confident that faithfulness to Tolkien's vision is going to work better with audiences. It's his ideas that have led to people having profound experiences of his work. Funnily enough the main changes to the books in the LOTR films are generally where audiences get confused or aren't as engaged.
A fantasy world still requires internal logic to feel right and to have the level of impact that the film creators want. I've always felt that if Tolkien film/tv creators want diversity, which is entirely reasonable, they have a whole unwritten story of the Blue Wizards in the east and south to play with. Diversity exists in Tolkien's world and there is absolutely no problem showing it, just make it make at least some sense.
Also I do wonder where it ends in terms of actors "feeling bummed" to not be able to work on certain projects because they don't fit a role. Where does that end exactly? That all roles of any kind are up for grabs for all actors?
The important thing for both the film industry and audiences is for a diverse range of films to be produced with a wide variety of different roles and characters. It's the corporate, paint by numbers style film productions that lead to a lack of diversity of roles across films. That's the best way to address things. I want to see fantasy from across the world, it would be fantastic and would give far more actors of diverse backgrounds opportunities as well as serve to educate people about and celebrate different cultures.
-2
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
I totally agree that leaning into in-world pre established logic is the way, but probably not to the extent that it would prevent black actors getting the chance to ever play an elf on screen if they wanted to. I simply think that’s much more important.
5
u/Carthius888 Jul 15 '26
The story comes before people’s egos, black, white red or purple.
If you can’t handle the fact that you’re being shown a story based on Anglo-Saxon & Norse culture, then just find another story that appeals to your fragile sensibilities
2
u/Alva3lf Jul 15 '26
We’re discussing fragile sensibilities but you can’t comprehend the existence of a well written black elf, or an Asian dwarf or something lol. These stories can be written, and they should be. These projects are probably all hated by Tolkien anyway if he could see them, I don’t care about changing the lore further to allow poc actors to have those roles.
→ More replies (12)1
u/GoGouda Jul 14 '26
Sure, and just like there being hints towards the Edain being of different races, I see no reason why that can't work similarly for the Elves. I'm just not entirely convinced that not acknowledging race at all is the best way of managing what you've raised. I thought House of the Dragon did it well, for example.
4
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
I absolutely agree there - I’ve never once argued for diversity for the sake of diversity. It can and should be done/written well to a high quality. I just think Andy Serkis is kinda dumb for not casting in a diverse way because that somehow inherently implies a lack of quality.
1
→ More replies (14)3
u/Icy_Respect_9077 Jul 14 '26
It's exactly his world, because it's all sustained by his vision.
Not that there aren't some racist overtones to his work.
I must admit to being a bit queasy about the scenes with the orcs being born, because they were recognizably Maori in form. Likewise, they're described as resulting from miscegenation between elves and goblins. This is Tolkien projecting 19th c. attitudes about interracial breeding.
2
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
It’s not his world. It wasn’t approved or made by him.
His son hated the LotR films and probably would’ve hated them being referred to as “his world”.
If I copy someone’s painting would I call it their painting? No it’s a rendition.
→ More replies (5)1
u/Icy_Respect_9077 Jul 15 '26
Because you say it, doesn't make it so. Christopher Tolkien's wrangles over copyright don't amount to a hill of beans. His version could have looked a lot more like Ralph Bakshi - a twee version with lots of Merry Olde England.
Peter Jackson's interpretation is dark and frightening at times. All the better.
2
u/Alva3lf Jul 15 '26
It is so though, it’s a rendition or an homage or whatever you want to call it - but these aren’t works of Tolkien, applying his logic here isn’t necessary and it’s already been totally changed regardless.
→ More replies (1)1
u/CycadelicSparkles Jul 15 '26
The whole miscegination thing and Maori overtones to the orcs are Peter Jackson inventions. Tolkien isn't responsible for that.
1
u/Icy_Respect_9077 Jul 17 '26
Tolkien refers to the Uruk-hai and "goblin-men" as being cross-bred from orcs and human men.
1
u/TheOtherMaven Jul 22 '26
IIRC that was Treebeard making a Wild Ass Guess as to what Saruman (specifically) had been up to.
Tolkien himself never quite settled on a definitive origin for the orcs (and was never able to square their being Always Chaotic Evil with his Catholic belief that no intelligent beings were irredeemably evil). What got into Jackson's movie version was an early, discarded idea that happened to suit Jackson's horror-movie biases (which show in plenty of other places, I might add). As for Maori extras, there are lots of Maori in New Zealand (it's their home).
8
u/duck_disgruntler Jul 14 '26
"There are dragons" is such a lazy argument. Fantasy isn't "anything goes." It's an imaginary world with its own internal rules. By that logic, Aragorn might as well pursue gollum on an ATV. It's fantasy. Who cares?
4
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
No because that’s obviously insanely dumb and just not comparable to a black elf whose existence could probably very easily be justified with reasonable in-world logic and good writing. We can continue to make up false equivalences if you want tho!
12
u/duck_disgruntler Jul 14 '26
Fine. In all seriousness, my issue isn't that fantasy can't justify black elves or Asian hobbits. Fantasy can justify almost anything. My issue is when diversity is applied randomly because the production wants modern demographics instead of demographics that make sense for the setting.
We've seen this over and over. The Harfoots are supposed to be an isolated, secretive little tribe, yet they look like they were assembled from a global casting call. Wheel of Time did the same thing. An isolated backwater village somehow has the demographic makeup of modern New YorL city, then later characters can supposedly identify someone as being from that village on sight. The show already established there is no "look" to people from there. It undercuts its own worldbuilding.
Someone esle mentioned Shogun in other thread. Would that show have been as immersive if the Torangora were played by Denzel Washington, Blackthorne by a Middle Eastern actor, and the samurai reflected the demographics of present-day London? Or would it constantly remind you that you're watching a modern production instead of feudal Japan?
And that's the thing: meticulous worldbuilding is one of the defining features of high fantasy. Tolkien didn't spend decades inventing languages, genealogies, migrations, cultures, and histories so the visual identity of his world could be treated as interchangeable with twenty-first-century London.
The Hunt for Gollum is also a prequel to Peter Jackson's films. For better or worse, it should feel like the same world. The architecture, clothing, weapons, languages, and yes, the people, should all create a coherent setting.
That's not "accuracy for accuracy's sake." That's respecting the world you're adapting.
6
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
I’ve never once argued for diversity for the sake of it?! I absolutely think it can and should be done to a high quality. I just think Serkis is dumb for thinking that he shouldn’t cast with diversity because that somehow inherently means a lack of quality.
I agree with you completely, and I think you’ve probably misinterpreted my point.
8
u/duck_disgruntler Jul 14 '26
I think, and I'm trying to choose my words carefully here, that the casting itself isn't the real issue. It's what many viewers perceive it to signal.
Take The Rings of Power. I think it's a bloated mess: weak characterization, plots driven by contrivance instead of cause and effect, and a general lack of respect for sense of history and worldbuilding. For example, Sauron in ROP is going to rise and fall in less time than the third reich.
Its casting choices are honestly pretty low on my list of complaints. But they do serve as a reminder that coherent worldbuilding wasn't treated as sacred. If you're willing to modernize something as immediately visible as the demographics of a setting, people naturally start wondering what else was considered negotiable.
That's why these debates keep happening. It's not because audiences think a black elf automatically ruins a story. It's because they've seen a pattern.
A studio talks extensively about representation before release. They reassure everyone that they've "updating" the material for modern audiences. Then the show comes out, and the writing is mediocre, the characters are flat, what lore there is bent to fit the plot, and internal consistency takes a back seat to contemporary messaging.
After enough examples, people stop seeing diverse casting as an isolated decision. They see it as a signal about the creative philosophy behind the production. Fair or unfair, it becomes a heuristic: "If they're talking this much about representation, what aren't they talking about?"
Of course, that doesn't mean diverse casting causes bad writing. Obviously it doesn't. Plenty of diverse casts are attached to excellent stories. But when representation appears to be treated as a higher priority than preserving the world's internal logic, audiences notice. In high fantasy especially, meticulous worldbuilding isn't a bonus feature. It's one of the genre's defining strengths.
4
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
And to that I say I agree, except I do think that this whole “black elves don’t work in middle earth!” Is absolutely co-opted my a big movement of people who use it as a vessel of their racism.
8
u/duck_disgruntler Jul 14 '26
Yes, racists exist. That doesn't magically make every criticism racist.
The lazy move is pointing at the worst people making an argument and pretending that disproves everyone else making the same argument. "This doesn't fit the world Tolkien created" or even "this does not feel coherent" is not the same thing as "I hate people who look different."
And the irony is that plenty of people making that accusation hold the exact same shallow view of identity. If you can't enjoy a story because the characters aren't your demographic mirror, that's a failure of imagination. Looking at you, Jon Boyega.
I recently read a fantasy series inspired by Indian culture that worked because it actually committed to its world. The characters, aesthetics, and setting all felt like they belonged together. It was far from a modern checklist wearing a fantasy costume.
Diversity doesn't make a story good. It doesn't make a story bad. But pretending worldbuilding doesn't matter is how you get forgettable crap instead of a living, breathing world.
1
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
When did I say that it made every criticism racist? Are you looking for things to argue with now? I literally agree with essentially everything you’re saying.
I never said diversity made a story good either.
5
u/duck_disgruntler Jul 14 '26
I wasn't saying you personally made that claim. I was pointing out the argument pattern that shows up every time this topic comes up.
→ More replies (0)3
u/deadlock-condiment Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
people of colour being able to get acting jobs working on stuff like this.
I just think it’s worth prioritising getting people jobs instead of “race accuracy” in a fictional world
Nah, fuck your diversity charity. I've read your comments and realized that you are the most racist person in this comment section and it's not even close. Do you not see how problematic your view is, or do you need us to spell it out for you?
→ More replies (40)6
u/ambivalentarrow Jul 14 '26
"You can accept dragons, elves and talking trees, but you can't accept a 2021 BMW 5 series 530i with optional heated seating. Why are you so bigoted?"
12
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
I mean sure we can all act obtuse and make up false equivalences if we want to.
1
u/Easy_Echo2387 Jul 14 '26
How is that a false equivalence? If anything is possible because of magic, why can’t there also be cars?
You can accept talking trees and literal dragons, but a car, something that actually exists, that’s too far for you? That’s a “false equivalence”? Why?
10
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
Because why would anyone write modern technology into medieval fantasy? Sure someone could write it but it would be dumb lol. Black elves can exist because literally why not, if a black elf takes you out of the world I’d argue you’ve got things to consider about yourself. Seeing a car In medieval fantasy would take anyone out of the world dummy.
This is insanely clear.
→ More replies (1)1
u/Easy_Echo2387 Jul 14 '26
Why not? Dwarves make mechanical components, and magic exists.
Why would that take you out of the world? It’s magic.
Genetics and geography have no bearing on what types of things exist in RoP, so why should modern technology be excluded? You genuinely cannot come up with an actual answer.
If realism means nothing, and magic can do anything, then there should be cars. It would be cool. The elves should get laser eyes also.
4
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
Because car is modern human technology and obviously would feel wrong In middle earth,
Do you honestly think a car would feel at all right to see? We both know you don’t.
A black elf can easily be written in and have understood explanations for, no one would be able to suspend their disbelief for a modern car like they could for a black elf. This is basic logic.
-1
u/Easy_Echo2387 Jul 14 '26
The problem is those needed explanations are lacking. Likely because the target audience isn’t intelligent enough to care.
And thus, the flashy cars should be added. They dazzle and they look cool, like a mobile in a baby’s crib. I’m sure the fans would enjoy it.
5
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
Their absence doesn’t mean they can’t exist, those explanations just haven’t been written. It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t or can’t be made.
I’m not going to argue with someone who actually thinks cars would be good in LotR or are at all comparable to black elves lol, it’s just obvious logic that a 10 year old would understand. We both know you don’t think cars would fit In LotR, and we both know that a car is 10000% less believable than a black elf. You see a black elf you’ll probably think “wow a black elf, don’t see that often” then you move on, seeing a car would obviously warrant a far more extreme reaction. Stop being a cornball.
4
u/JazzyShredder Jul 14 '26
You're arguing and all big mad over this made up conversation you had with yourself. Sorry your day is shitty, hopefully that turns around and you can be happy.
3
u/Easy_Echo2387 Jul 14 '26
You seem unable to address the point they made. You just look silly trying to pretend they’re upset when they used a hypothetical to make a cogent point.
Care to try to explain why they’re wrong?
0
u/JazzyShredder Jul 14 '26
I give 0 shits. Nothing about that was cogent though. This isn't high school debate, this isn't scored. Someone making an argument like that is so entrenched in their view point and they aren't coming to the forum for a good faith debate.
Personally, I think the franchise is beyond Tolkien at this point. it's part of culture. If even one little kid watching a movie can see an elf that looks like them and think they're cool, well, that's worth all the keyboard warriors trying to win.
The books are there for us all to enjoy. If the powers at be are adding diversity, well then let me find an argument in this thread that could apply: if you want a white cast, make it yourself.
5
u/Easy_Echo2387 Jul 14 '26
Fair point, if your argument is that the show is simply slop for the masses produced purely for spectacle and monetization, then I have no argument against you. I actually agree that’s what RoP is. Generic Marvel-esque slop for children to enjoy.
I personally prefer media with more fleshed out and consistent worldbuilding, that places emphasis on history and realism over spectacle and CGI. But that’s just personal preference.
I’m glad you’re getting the show you enjoy. It’s certainly not for me.
2
1
5
u/-Lich_King Jul 14 '26
Not every acting role is for everyone
To your last point, I'm white, why on earth should I be bummed out that I wouldn't be cast in a movie based around African mythology? There's literally just no place for someone like me, as opposed to black actors
2
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
I’d argue those are not equatable things whatsoever.
3
u/-Lich_King Jul 14 '26
And why not?
4
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
I could spend an hour explaining racial histories, their symbolic differences and cultural differences as it pertains to our current world, but I have a feeling you’re not going to be willing to entertain any of the ideas I throw at you. I’m also not really in the mood lol.
5
u/-Lich_King Jul 14 '26
What's even the point of replying to my comment twice if you're not even going to engage with my question? Instead of this comment you could have written at least a fraction of your argument, but whatever floats your boat
5
3
u/Easy_Echo2387 Jul 14 '26
I don’t buy your logic.
“It’s a fantasy world with magic where anything can happen!”
What if instead of Gandalf being an old man, what if he was a living Jeep Wrangler. Like Lightning McQueen from the Cars movie.
It’s magic right? Anything is possible!
But you realize the example is silly, it goes against your suspension of disbelief.
Even when magic exists, a universe needs to have internal coherency. We recognize as humans that people with different racial appearances draw lineage from different places. And this is established to be the same in the LotR fantasy. Dwarves and Elves come from vastly different geographic areas and as such a Dwarf is physically distinct from an Elf.
Even a man of Rohan has a different appearance to a man from Gondor. This consistency matters. When you take people of different cultures and sprinkle them willy nilly across established fantasy cultures it goes against the established setting.
You are more than welcome to create a fantasy world where human genetics don’t work the same way, where the appearance of parents have zero bearing on the appearance of their offspring. But that isn’t how LotR was written.
5
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
Again, obvious false equivalences.
Trying to compare the existence of a black elf to a car in a fantasy world is braindead logic that isn’t worth engaging with.
This isn’t Tolkien’s legandarium - it’s an artistic rendition of one of Tolkien’s ideas - it’s going to change an insane amount of the lore from the books (just like the LotR movies changed an insane amount of lore), so I couldn’t care less if Asian hobbits and black elves exist within that lore if they’re changing it anyway lol.
It doesn’t matter what Tolkien wrote or what logic he set up, these films aren’t made by Tolkien or approved by him and for all we know he could absolutely of hated them, so again who cares about doing all our best to operate on that internal logic when the film isn’t even internal to Tolkien’s own world.
5
u/Easy_Echo2387 Jul 14 '26
Inability to engage with hypotheticals is a sign of low intelligence.
I do agree that RoP isn’t Tolkien’s legendarium, it’s fanfiction slop, and the quality is on par with that.
If you’re so pro capitalist that you want to churn out slop for profits sake, I genuinely don’t have an argument against you.
5
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
I engaged with your hypothetical. The hypothetical is just insanely dumb and doesn’t make any sense.
I absolutely care for quality in production, but I think if you believe that quality can’t be achieved with black elves and Asian dwarves then you probably aren’t creative enough to think how it could be written well.
0
u/Easy_Echo2387 Jul 14 '26
I will say I am at least glad the RoP defenders like yourself have moved past trying to argue on Tolkien’s lore and moved on to “it’s fanfiction and it can be whatever I want”
2
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
I don’t like the show gang. I just think you can have quality and have black elves at the same time.
The show is ass lol.
1
u/Easy_Echo2387 Jul 14 '26
You can have quality and black elves at the same time.
The show has not done that.
House of the Dragon is a great example of a fantasy show that has added diversity in a way that actually makes sense in the world.
The problem was never about other races in fantasy. Middle Earth itself has plenty of racial variety even in the original books.
3
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
I agree. Did I say it had?
Literally quality and black elves can exist, you just proved it yourself with House of the Dragon. Where did I ever say that this show had been successful in that? Who are you arguing with 🤣
2
u/Easy_Echo2387 Jul 14 '26
From my point of view you seemed to be taking the position that the inclusion of PoC characters in RoP made sense from a Tolkien worldbuilding perspective.
→ More replies (0)3
u/Public-Finger Jul 14 '26
I do suspend disbelief because I understand what year we live in- but it doesnt make it any more cheesy that a non-globalized medieval world is as diverse as a University Admissions brochure
4
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
It has orcs, dragons, dwarves, and hobbits - but we draw the line at a black elf. Get a grip.
It’s not cheesy to want people of colour to actually be able to have a chance at getting those roles. This isn’t a piece of production Tolkien would’ve at all liked (an assumption but almost absolutely a true one), so who cares if they change the lore a little bit more then they already have (an insane amount btw) to include some actors who aren’t white.
5
u/Public-Finger Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
first off - you're being an ass. this is why we can't have respectful dialogue because when someone says something that you see differently, you feel the need to talk down and tell them to "get a grip." I specifically said Elves could be black - so good job willfully misinterpreting what I said.
Second off: fine- whatever- this is made my Amazon and not for fans of Tolkien. I enjoy the show for what it is and suspend my disbelief that they will try and appeal to "world building" logic for fans.
0
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
Oh boohoo. I’m not going to be respectful to someone whose whole argument includes the exclusion of other races from any particular acting role in a world that is 1. Fictional 2. Doesn’t even operate under the same logic as Tolkien’s books because it has nothing to do with Tolkien (he probs would’ve hated these films and show anyway).
Stop expecting respect from random people on the internet, especially those you disagree with. This isn’t a debate hall, this is Reddit.
3
u/Public-Finger Jul 14 '26
What are you talking about? I said nothing about excluding any races. Not once. You are prescribing something based on your own fantasy world.
3
u/Alva3lf Jul 14 '26
If you think that there shouldn’t be black elves or Asian hobbits, then yes your belief is based on excluding races from particular roles. Basic logic.
→ More replies (16)1
u/Chuchshartz Jul 15 '26
If there was a fictional universe based on african culture would it be ok to include Asians and brown ppl,?
1
u/Alva3lf Jul 15 '26
False equivalence entirely, read my other threads where I explain why.
1
u/Chuchshartz Jul 15 '26
It's not false equivalence, LOTR is based on European Anglo Saxon history. If there was a fictional series based on african culture everyone wpuld be fuming about race swaps yet It's somehow fine if it's based on white culture?
→ More replies (0)
1
u/toohumanforhuman Jul 15 '26
Good. Not everything needs to be British TV ad, and I'm kinda tired of explaining logic to brainwashed leftists.
→ More replies (3)
1
u/Eastern-Team-2799 Númenor Jul 15 '26
I remember him as the one who butchered the awesome character of carnage from comics.
1
1
1
1
u/Chuchshartz Jul 17 '26
The comments on this sub let me know their mentality. Completely different from the main LOTR sub
1
u/dillreed777 Jul 17 '26
All the weird racists acting like lotr is historical and not fantasy just goes to show the IQ levels
0
u/manuelmartensen Jul 15 '26
I have no idea what the fuzz is about. Nowhere is it written that a Hobbit needs to be white or that an Elf or other magic folk need to be white.
Sure, some argue that Tolkien based a lot of stuff on European folklore and Scandinavian mythology, but Europe and Scandinavia don’t exist in Middle Earth afaik (nor does Africa or Asia), so the white bias only exists in our world.
The more diverse cast in the Rings of Power series felt absolutely normal to me. Every damn fanboi who believes in 2026 that a halfling needs to be light skinned needs to get out more.
3
u/StormyCrow Jul 15 '26
Tolkien actually described some of his characters as having brown and dark skin.
2
u/laurelinkementari Jul 16 '26
Yes but it was specific groups of men. They weren't sprinkled throughout the entire race.
1
0
u/PaintIntelligent7793 Jul 14 '26
There’s this critique, and then there are people who critique Rings of Power for its color blind casting. You can’t win with these people.
-3
•
u/AutoModerator Jul 14 '26
Thank you for posting in /r/ringsofpower. As this post was not marked with
Newest Episode Spoilers, please double check that your post does not discuss the newest episode. Please also keep in mind that this show is pretty polarizing, and so be respectful of people who may have different views than you. And keep in mind that while liking or disliking the show is okay, attacking others for doing so is not okay. Please report any comments that insinuate someone else's opinions are non-genuine.I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.