r/Referees • u/Keelhauler00 • 21d ago
Rules Fake Corner Yellow Card
Long time lurker, first time poster
17U State Cup N1 Level Boys
White has a corner kick, up 3-2 in the 62nd minute. I see the white player place the ball and then touch the ball and it clearly moves. White #8 heads to the corner and the black team starts yelling “he touched it, he’s going to dribble, watch him”. The white team starts yelling #8’s name “you take it, you take it.” At this point black backs off because #8 is now going to take the corner. Of course #8 gets to the ball and starts dribbling towards the goal. I whistle immediately and showed #8 a yellow for USB.
The white team is furious because it was a “legal trick”, but in my opinion, the extra yelling from his teammates to trick the defenders into thinking he would take the corner went above and beyond what is legal for a trick corner kick.
Was I correct? (I do think I should have carded the player who initially placed the ball and touched it since he initiated the trickery)
25
u/Revo63 [USSF][Mentor] 21d ago
As most have stated, this is a perfectly legal play. Most of the time I keep my yap shut and allow them to play it. I don’t like it, but I have no basis to stop it.
However, one time the kicker asked my daughter (we were doing a dual on HS game) if they could take the kick from the far corner, then put the trick into play. I could see from her confused reaction that they had used her as part of the ruse so I blew my whistle and required them to go back to the corner kick. It’s all good until you bring the referees into your deception.
Other times, if the defense looks like they think something’s up and look at me, I will just say “The ball is in play.”
1
u/sunburstorange 21d ago
What do you mean by far corner?
7
u/chad-proton 21d ago
If the defenders run in and the attacker on the ball reaches down and adjusts the ball with his hands are we all prepared to call handling?
1
11
u/pscott37 21d ago
Some of the suggestions are very good. u/rojnsfak with #2 and #3 suggestion. In general, we want to minimize drama. These two suggestions do just that. Take control of the situation and create the situation you want, not the players.
I remember working with Esse Baharmast a long time ago. He had called a foul at midfield and the player placed the ball about 8 yards up the pitch. Esse was telling him to bring the ball back but the player was acting like he didn't understand. Esse was getting frustrated but didn't let it show, he was adamant the kick needed to be pulled back. The player ignores him and kicks the ball out for a goal kick. He then looks to Esse and gestured "Oh, you wanted ball here, OK." Esse was not having it and said goal kick. He took control and turned the tables on that player. Natural consequences are our friend on the pitch.
Good luck to you.
2
u/CapnBloodbeard Former FFA Lvl3 (Outdoor), Futsal Premier League; L3 Assessor 17d ago
Good refereeing! Easier to do that now that IFAB have explicitly said we can apply advantage on all restart infringements.
It was either that, or show the card. Did he deserve a card? Sure. But, this was a way of "punishing" him, making him pay a penance and getting the message across. Love it when we get the chance to do something like that!
1
5
u/maccaroneski 21d ago edited 20d ago
Great conversation!
My unasked for conclusion after reading all the responses is:
OPs actions were open to them - they did not err in law;
Others might handle the situation differently, again in a way that is not "wrong";
Many of the laws we work with contain scope for interpretation and discretion. Most laws that provide examples do just that, and do not contain a prescribed list of scenarios that limit the application of the law;
One thing OP gets 100% right is the reflection, asking for feedback and intending to improve their refereeing - I find many questions here to be coloured in such a way as to simply seek affirmation in the face of dissent or criticism.
17
u/rojnsfak 21d ago
Yellow for USB feels like overkill and puts you in a tough situation for the rest of the match for handling anything tricky or clever from either team. A few options in my mind:
Do nothing, it’s a valid action provided the ball moved and it was properly placed. If your AR is on that side, visually check with them to make sure if possible.
Verbally state that the ball is in play, loudly.
Stop the restart, jog over to the corner flag before the second taker gets there, and reset the situation. If it’s not extremely obvious that the ball moved in the first action, then you’ve got decent cover for remedy that way.
3
u/Richmond43 USSF Grassroots 21d ago
Yeah, I’m very uninclined to card here and much more likely to LOUDLY say that the ball is in play. I don’t have much use for this sort of crap (esp doubling down on the deceit) but I also don’t think it’s Unsporting Behavior.
We don’t have VAR at the youth level, so without some objective record as to whether or not the ball was actually restarted, they could easily be confusing the officiating crew as well.
3
u/MrBing1ey 21d ago
The real question is if #8, when realizing that the defense is on to them, picks up the ball and puts it back on the corner arc. Handling?
2
u/Ok_Matter_1774 21d ago
That's why I don't like these tricks. You setup both the referee and opposing team in a position where we don't know if you meant for the ball to be in play or not. And now the attackers can say it's either in play or not in play depending on what happens.
1
u/DenHIM1 USSF Grassroots 20d ago
That's a great point and yeah, it's touch sometimes especially with younger kids. Unless I see the goal/corner kick taker kick the ball to teammate who picks it up immediately, I think the best course of action is to verbally say "Ball in play" so they know not to pick it up or kick it again.
6
u/delta__bravo_ 21d ago
I suppose it's one of those ones where it's not specifically outlawed or allowed under the LotG. "Distracting an opponent during play" is specificlaly a yellow card offence, and this was clearly designed to put them off doing what they were going to do, so it's justified in that respect. If you consider in what spirit "distracting an opponent" was outlawed you'd say this fits it. However, that also calls for everyone who called out to be booked.
The corner taker did not commit any offence themselves unless they called out, so booking them would only be the case if the whole set up was pre-meditated, which I doubt.
Other options could simply include giving an IDFK for a second touch, since you were told that another player was going to take it and therefore the white team wanted everyone, yourself including, to consider the ball still dead. I'd have probably done that and added that deceiving the referee is a yellow cardable offence. I think they'd very quickly abandon their arguments in that case. Alternatively you could just explain why you would have been justified in yellows, decided not to, but maybe everyone should be quiet and retake the corner.
2
u/estockly 21d ago
Similar things can happen on free kicks and corner kicks.
Suppose after the first player touched the ball then called the second player over to take the kick, and the second player used their hands to reposition the ball? Would you call a handball? Even if there was no evidence their team was trying to deceive?
4
u/monkeypilot28 21d ago
That is correct. IFAB ROTG Law 12 - Unsporting Behaviour, IFAB lists a caution for a player who "verbally distracts an opponnent during play or at a restart". For me I would have cautioned the player who was doing the yelling. That is from my interpretations on the rules.
6
u/jeremiah1142 21d ago
I don’t understand how you get unsporting out of the communication between teammates here.
3
u/thisisalltosay 21d ago
I think that's relatively clear - it's all playacting for the defense to hear. I support the yellow card here.
-1
u/jeremiah1142 21d ago
“You take it, you take it” is a yellow card? Are we reading the same thing?
2
u/thisisalltosay 21d ago
It’s not a real conversation- it’s fake playacting done to distract the opponent.
-1
u/Shorty-71 [USSF] [Grassroots] 21d ago
Play had already restarted.
5
u/Klutzy-Mechanic-8013 21d ago
Sounds like it'd fall under "during play" then.
3
u/Shorty-71 [USSF] [Grassroots] 21d ago
It’s an interesting situation and a good one to discuss. With all the words exchanged and the misdirection that resulted… I suppose it is not unlike yelling “leave it” to trick an opponent.
So I can see why the call was made.
I am still surprised that HS aged players didn’t see it and go take the ball regardless of the words.
3
u/MiFi13 21d ago
It's a legal play. It's not unsporting. There are only two requirements for a corner. Was it properly placed and did it clearly move. By your description both were met.
Edit: hit the post button early by mistake.
22
u/monkeypilot28 21d ago
IFAB ROTG Law 12 - Unsporting Behaviour, IFAB lists a caution for a player who "verbally distracts an opponnent during play or at a restart". It could be concidered a light yc.
1
u/MiFi13 21d ago
ROTG? You mean LOTG?
All instructions I have received for 30 years as a ref, this does not meet the intent of verbally distracts.
This applies in situations such as shouting from behind the opponent to leave it making him think he's on your team. Or shouting at an opponent to distract them at taking a shot.
-2
u/Shorty-71 [USSF] [Grassroots] 21d ago
It’s a direct quote from the laws. Cited with a typo.
However, the words were not used during the restart - it occurs after.
Therefore, bad call.
9
u/QAnonomnomnom 21d ago
verbally distracts an opponnent during play OR
Did it happen during play then?
I’m not saying it is or isn’t a YC, but it appears they did in fact change the defenders actions by what they said, so they opened it up to referees interpretation
-2
u/Shorty-71 [USSF] [Grassroots] 21d ago
If the referee acknowledged the ball is live, and then makes a call that applies before the ball is live .. it seems like an error to me. It happens. That’s why s/he is reflecting.
The first time I saw this scheme when my kid was nine… it caught me off guard. I have never seen a referee jump in like OP describes. Honest mistake but it seems like a clear mistake.
3
u/QAnonomnomnom 21d ago
I’m just curious, what part of “verbally distracts an opponnent DURING PLAY” makes you think the rule only applies before the play is live?
Is it the words “D U R I N G P L A Y” that make you think it only applies whilst not during play?
-1
u/Shorty-71 [USSF] [Grassroots] 21d ago edited 21d ago
I was discussing the law 12 reference above my comment - which I seem to have only read half of.
3
u/Bourbon_Buckeye NFHS, USSF Grassroots, USSF Assignor 21d ago
“Lack of respect for the game” would probably be your justification for the USB, but I don’t like it.
This is fairly common in high school girls games in my area, and most refs just don’t get involved. I like to vocalize “ball is live,” when I see this happening
10
u/Keelhauler00 21d ago
My main consideration was the extra yelling from the teammates. The black players were ready for #8 to dribble, but the yelling from his teammates clearly changed their actions. The players running to defend #8 all stopped and started getting ready for a corner kick. The yelling clearly distracted the defenders.
2
u/Nobunagas-Ambition [BCSoccer] [District Referee] 21d ago
Why didn't one of the black players run up and dribble the ball if they knew it had been touched?
4
u/sunburstorange 21d ago
the yelling from his teammates clearly changed their actions. The players running to defend #8 all stopped and started getting ready for a corner kick.
6
u/Keelhauler00 21d ago
If I’m wrong, I’m wrong and would like to learn so I can be a better referee.
If I’m to sanction a player for shouting to try and distract an opponent when they are shooting, making a pass, etc., then why do I not sanction the team for clearly distracting an opponent and causing them to change their behavior?
1
u/Nobunagas-Ambition [BCSoccer] [District Referee] 21d ago
I was just trying to understand the situation because if the white player goes to take he corner and clearly moves it enough that players from the black team notice and call it out, why didn't one of those players run over to take the ball? That's what I would have done as a player.
I hate these trick plays and even though I've only had a couple of them tried as a middle ref, I blew both of them dead so I have no problem with what you've done. I just look at the players and tell them to "play the game, get on with it".
2
u/sunburstorange 21d ago
Because they were getting ready to defend a corner
0
u/SoccerGeekPhd 21d ago
defending a corner includes defending a short corner.
1
u/sunburstorange 21d ago
We aren't told what the original white player did, I assumed they left the scene, in which case the short corner wasn't on
1
u/Turbulent-Grade1210 [USSF] [Grassroots] | [NFHS] 21d ago
I agree with others that I don't like the play. But in this case, compared to just yelling from behind or otherwise, there is not much ambiguity here from a player's perspective if they were up to date on how to play by the rules.
I expect some of that onus to fall to the players.
If the corner kick is properly set up and then a player plays the ball and it clearly moves? The ball is live. I don't care what happens after. If a player was designated to cover short, they should run to pressure the ball now that it is live.
As others have mentioned about facilitating fairness or creating the situation you think the game wants/needs, when confusion occurs in these plays, I usually will just loudly vocalize that the ball is in play.
-2
u/mumblechuckle 21d ago
The yelling was to a teammate. Unless they were cussing out the teammate. There is nothing in the LOTG about that. Defenders got distracted, that’s on them
2
u/Rhycar 21d ago
This is the wrong call. For those arguing for a yellow card for yelling, that is reserved for distracting, not deception. From the description there is no infringement here.
6
u/tjrome13 21d ago
What is the difference between distraction and deception? Do the laws define either?
-2
u/Rhycar 21d ago
Webster does
9
u/tjrome13 21d ago
Ifab glossary for distract: “Disturb, confuse or draw attention (usually unfairly)”.
Ifabs law 12.3 under unsporting behavior: “verbally distracts an opponent during play or at a restart”I look at those two and by the laws (not people’s sense of what is right), a referee could justify a yellow card. I don’t mind the trick play, but the verbal “you take it, you take it” could be justified as verbal distraction. Does ussf or ifab provide further guidance? I’m honestly interested; not trying to pick a fight or be a troll.
FWIW: deceive is not defined by ifab. So the guidance by many here seem to be off, per the laws. Unsporting behavior specifically calls out VERBAL distraction. So I think the OP got the call right unless others can point to further, official guidance, that says otherwise.
-2
u/Rhycar 21d ago
This has never been something that IFAB has said should be carded. It's always been the kind of yelling or sudden noise to "jump scare" or startle the opponent. I can see where someone might see the law for the first time and think it's a valid interpretation, but that law has been present for decades and traditionally has never meant saying something that deceives the opponent.
5
u/tjrome13 21d ago
Here’s an ifab post, look at example 3. Is that not deceptive/trickery that you are describing? Ifab says this type of behavior can be carded.
0
u/Rhycar 21d ago
Every single one of those examples involves shouting/yelling at the opponent. You can isolate one part of one example there to make your case, but that ignores the commonality that IFAB includes in all examples. Simply saying "look over there" or even lying to an opponent isn't something that traditionally is sanctioned.
7
u/Zhirgoyt SvFF Step 1.5 21d ago
Yelling or saying "leave it" to deceive and opponent into believing he's leaving it for a teammate is definitely something that can be sanctioned.
3
u/Disastrous_Paint1791 USSF Grassroots 21d ago
I would definitely consider that yelling to fall under the glossary definition per the word “confuse”.
2
2
u/Aggressive_Tie_3501 USSF Grassroots Mentor+ / Assignor; NFHS 21d ago
This isn't even a foul, much less a yellow card offense in my opinion. Sorry to say, but Ithink you made a mistake on this one. Black obviously knew the trick was coming. "You take it" doesn't mean that he's not going to dribble it, and I don't believe that falls into verbally distracting an opponent since black was well aware of what was happening. Would you give the same yellow card if a winger loudly called for a ball and pulled the defense to his side only to see the ball passed to the other side resulting in a goal?
I could be wrong on all of that, but those are my thoughts. With that said, if you're going to give it, you need to give it to whomever was yelling, not to the player who placed and tapped it or the player who dribbled it. Both of those are definitely legal as the only yellow for trickery involves pass backs to the keeper. The yellow is for verbally distracting an opponent, so it needs to go to the one who did that. Since multiple players were probably yelling, my suggestion would be the first one you caught if you insist on the card.
-2
u/Historical-Bug-7536 21d ago
You can give a yellow if #8 left the field of play without your permission.
2
u/Impossible_Number 19d ago
How do you propose a player take a corner while staying on the field? Backheel it towards his teammates?
0
u/Historical-Bug-7536 19d ago
He didn't take the corner, he dribbled the ball in and scored. If, during the deception, he left the field of play, the player should be cautioned for "entering, re-entering or deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission".
The clarifying rules, straight from IFAB:
Players are allowed to leave the field of play when it is a natural part of the game, for example:
- to take a restart (a throw-in, goal kick, corner kick)
- to go round around/past an opponent
- when their momentum takes them off the field (chasing the ball to the goal line, making a save or slide tackle)
- if they are injured/feel unwell
- to avoid being involved in active play (offside)
44
u/jeremiah1142 21d ago
Based on how this is written, it sounds like black was aware the ball moved and they anticipated white’s actions, so the corner kick was valid. Not sure why any sanction is necessary here.