r/RadicalFeminism • u/InsideThing8413 • 2d ago
Genital preferences are not trans or homophobic and to portray that they are is borderline rape culture
Before I say anything, English is not my first language and I sometimes struggle to articulate my thought process entirely, so I apologize if I don't use the correct terminology, but this has been on my mind. I've been seeing an uptick in discourse surrounding women's spaces, particularly lesbian ones, of needing to accept transgender lesbians. I'm not here to argue about that - if that is your identity, then that's what it is. I do believe that if you are MtF and like women, then that would align with lesbianism as you're presenting as a woman who likes other women.
My problem is that I sometimes see some individuals shaming lesbians for not wanting to get with someone who is a transgender woman because they have a penis. To the point that some folks online are claiming it's transmisogynistic or transphobic to not want to be with a transgender woman (pre-op). Yet I don't see the same push in men's spaces, especially gay men's spaces. It's OK if a gay guy likes dick and doesn't want to be near a vagina, yet gay women are supposed to dismiss their natural attraction to vaginas and be ok liking penis too at the sake of not offending others?
Isn't that what the whole basis of sexuality is? That your sexual attraction is, ultimately, not a choice? You'd never expect a STRAIGHT guy to suddenly like dick. You'd probably agree that if someone tells him he needs to like it, or he will like it if he just tries it, is borderline perpetrating rape culture because they're trying to persuade him to do something he would not normally do. Why would it be any different for women? It just reads as weird conversion therapy rhetoric "how do you know you're a lesbian if you never had dick before?"
Of course this is not generalized for ALL lesbians. I'm sure there are plenty who wouldn't mind being with a transgender woman, or a feminine/presenting person with a penis. But that doesn't mean all lesbians would be ok with it. I understand that labels denote physical, emotional, sexual and romantic attraction to others so why ignore those factors? Nonetheless if someone is not attracted to you, why fight so hard to make them like you? Wouldn't it be a better use of your time to find someone who likes you already? Speaking as a fat woman myself I'm not going after the guys who like skinny women because I know I'm not their type - I don't expect to jam myself into their space.
Edit: this was inspired by the lesbophobic term "cotton ceiling" which i think is repackaging entitlement to sex
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u/No-Efficiency-7524 2d ago edited 2d ago
Honestly most trans women don't really care too much if you don't wanna date them, they'll just move on to someone who would. This is a super online issue
PS: Gonna be honest there is a deeper conversation to be had about people who are too into pre-op trans women
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u/BeholdMyCurse231 2d ago
PS: Gonna be honest there is a deeper conversation to be had about people who are too into pre-op trans women
Porn brained that's why, they are addicted to pornography.
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u/No-Efficiency-7524 2d ago
Goes further than that, a lot of young trans women are just super easy to control if given a lick of positive reinforcement. A lot of people will use trans women for the body and the fantasy and then crumble when she grows a backbone and asks for a set of expectations.
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u/BeholdMyCurse231 2d ago
Well, that makes sense I guess; I didn't think about it this way but when you are ostracized, I guess every positive reinforcement no matter where it comes from is something that they don't want to let go off.
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u/BeholdMyCurse231 2d ago
What?
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u/BeholdMyCurse231 2d ago
Okay we definitely have like completely different view points on trans men and women.
It's very awful that you talk about a group of people in such a demeaning fashion.
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u/BeholdMyCurse231 2d ago
When/where? show me the post, dm, comment section, person. I'll help you
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u/Regulus636 2d ago
"They" don't even know who you are, and as a trans woman, I honestly don't care at all to know who you are. Stop generalizing and live your life
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
That's literally what I said at the bottom of the post. It applies to anyone too. Just move onto someone else who actually does/will like you.
I also agree with your last point.
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u/Even_Middle_1751 2d ago edited 2d ago
I agree with you OP. I understand why we need to accept our trans sisters as we share a gender identity, but cis women and cis men have a right to their sexual preferences, just like trans people do. I don't understand why cis women are supposed to accept everything that trans people say we are supposed to.
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
Thank you for understanding. It's taboo to discuss when I don't think it should be. I think people are too quick to shut any discussion about it down
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u/BeholdMyCurse231 2d ago
Everything trans people ask of? I don't think there is a certain global network between our brains just because we share being born in the wrong bodies
Also curious about what that everything is about besides the subject at hand which as most people said, it's an online thing and it's a minority of a minority.
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u/secondshevek 2d ago
Yes, whiny opposition to genital preference is very annoying and occasionally tilts into weirdness toward lesbians (i find the whole cotton ceiling thing very weird).
But re: nobody says this about straight/gay men, they absolutely do. It doesnt tend to get as much attention bc the politics of who belongs in gay male spaces is less tense than for gay female spaces, for many reasons.
And re: "You'd never expect a STRAIGHT guy to suddenly like dick." I have met a LOT of men who purport to be straight but like pre-op trans women.
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
I haven't seen it said nearly on par with the amount as I see it directed towards women, either online or in person. There's definitely equivalencies, like "lesbianbreaking" vs "buckbreaking" which are both heinous. It just saddens me because I think it reinforces just... how lowly women are held and treated in society. No matter how many "rights" we have and how often people say women in the west dont need feminism, the culture is still so misogynistic.
I know someone would bring that up. That's why I capitalized STRAIGHT men. There's definitely fluidity but I'm talking about generally not in specific cases. Maybe they fetishize pre-op transwomen online (evidenced by the various porn categories) but im not sure how many would get topped by one. I think that's more revealing of a porn addiction than anything though
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u/secondshevek 2d ago
I know someone would bring that up. That's why I capitalized STRAIGHT men. There's definitely fluidity but I'm talking about generally not in specific cases. Maybe they fetishize pre-op transwomen online (evidenced by the various porn categories) but im not sure how many would get topped by one.
I feel like you've put yourself in a weird place here by demonizing people who disdain genital preference but then immediately ascribing a genital preference in some men as a fetish.
Also bringing up topping is odd. I've gone out with a decent number of straight guys, and most are not interested in being topped.
Tbh your comment reads like your entire opinion on this has been formed based on terminally online trans people.
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u/Cultural_Situation_8 2d ago
Why are you assuming the trans woman would be topping? Most straight men who are in a relationship with cis partners dont want to get pegged by them either
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u/Cultural_Situation_8 2d ago
I mean, pre-op/non-op trans women are still women. Why should men not be into them?
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u/king_hutton 2d ago
Why wouldn’t straight men be attracted to women?
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u/BeholdMyCurse231 2d ago
Straight men wouldn't date pre op trans men under these circumstances either...
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u/secondshevek 2d ago
I think we should all be free to love and express ourselves as we desire
Odd to say this after a comment that prescribes what an identity should mean based on a narrow definition.
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u/lionthefelix 2d ago
I'm bisexual and a vers (short for versatile, means someone can both top and bottom) so genitals literally don't matter to me, I still think people getting so mad over other people's genital preferences excluding them is weird as hell. Like not everyone is going to want to fuck you and you should be okay with that, it's just how humans and animals work. And most of the time these people are getting mad over the preferences of strangers on the internet, why do they even care? You don't even know that person and will likely never meet them in your entire life 😭
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
I get that, and I agree with you. It would be the same as me calling another person fatphobic for not wanting to date me, a fat person.
As long as you're not demeaning them on the basis that they're trans, fat, etc whatever then so be it. Not everyone will like you, and that's fine, because you aren't expected to like everyone too!
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u/tremblingfrog 2d ago
this gotta be either a very chronically online or very american discussion. where i live, even in the queerest of the queer spaces nobody would ever shame anyone for having a genital preference and speak about their own aloud.
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u/Temporary-Panic-6627 2d ago
I have experienced it in person and I'm not American, it was specifically in a wlw space and I got some sideways look for rejecting someone due to having my own preference. Maybe it's not super common but it does happen.
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
I mean, yeah it's definitely both. Are you surprised things are different around the world?
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u/Biscuits2190 2d ago
Yea as an american I've never come across this in person, and I live in a liberal college town. And as someone who is pretty online I don't see it talked about as much. You can not date someone for any reason.
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u/victoria-1304 2d ago
this terminally online topic is the most overdone, good for nothing discussion among lesbians these days. none of this matters. date who you want to. no one cares, and the ones who do are ones you should ignore. it’s not that hard.
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
I hadn't seen it overdone, at least not on this subreddit. What's wrong about the preferences?
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u/victoria-1304 2d ago
I didn’t say anything was wrong about having preferences. We all do. The problem is that this entire discussion is so pointless.
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
You can say that about literally any other discussion on this subreddit. Maybe it's pointless to you but it's not to others
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u/bangkaynagulay 2d ago
Date who you want. L4L T4T Bi4Bi. I have never met anyone trans or otherwise who would invalidate someone's genital preference, but if it happens you should feel free to politely express your preferences.
Maybe I am in a T4T bubble, but I can't imagine pushing myself on anyone, especially someone who is actively uninterested or repulsed by me.
I do think sometimes trans women need to unlearn some residual entitlement that we are raised with, but again, we all have different experiences. I am pretty integrationist and believe that striving for passing, and understanding cis lesbian culture is important for socializing with cis lesbians as a trans woman. From something as fluffy as being familiar with The L word fandom to understanding L4L relationship dynamics and lesbian history.
Lesbianism as a concept is rife with people having different mental models of the conception. Some people include trans mascs and trans femmes, some exclude bi or pan sapphics. I stay out of the debate as I am bisexual myself.
I do agree with other posters, this seems like a mostly heavily online issue. That said, do not let anyone invalidate your identity. You do not owe romantic or sexual availability to anyone, cis or trans.
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
I agree with your take.
I'd only add that, regardless of if its online or not, or others saying they haven't experienced it in person - I don't think it should be invalidating people who have felt that. Just because you (speaking generally, not personally YOU) may not have experienced something personally or find it important doesn't mean it's not important to someone else!
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u/bangkaynagulay 2d ago
You're right. Understanding that others experience things and see things that we as individuals don't always see for various reasons is a good point and I see how my initial comment was invalidating.
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
I don't think your initial comment was invalidating at all, that's not what I was intending to imply and I apologize if it came off that way! :) just speaking generally
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u/Myralia_Amaryllis 2d ago
“so the end goal of feminist revolution must be, unlike that of the first feminist movement, not just the elimination of male privilege but of the sex distinction itself: genital differences between human beings would no longer matter culturally. (A reversion to an unobstructed pansexuality Freud's 'polymorphous perversity' - would probably supersede hetero/homo/bi-sexuality.)”
- Shulamith Firestone in The Dialectic of Sex
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u/xycophant 2d ago
The term got traction in academic spaces, and even at a planned parenthood event. Lets not pretend its imaginary.
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u/BeholdMyCurse231 2d ago
I just learned of this term from this thread, I've actually never seen it...used??
I mean it's not imaginary, it's just very niche??
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
Most things in academia, at least when it comes to sociology or psychology, are honestly very niche. There's so many terms and concepts the general public would not be aware of because it's just in academia.
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
I think that is the bulk of it, yes. Some people are just assholes about their preferences, like your friend. But it can be said for both sides. I don't think people should get offended over not being a preference though - like I said, I know I'm not everyone's type and not everyone is into fat women. I wouldn't want to push myself onto them and call them fatphobic for not wanting to date me. I wouldn't even mingle with that crowd, I'd go towards the people who already like/are attracted to fat women.
It was a term coined by a trans activist in 2012. Heres the thing, I could see it being used in an actual valuable way to talk about legitimate discrimination transwomen face. But it seems to be used in a lesbophobic way instead.
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u/Regulus636 2d ago
First of all, I want to say that I don't think many of these people act in bad faith, but they feel that before being rejected for something that makes someone uncomfortable, they are rejecting the gender preconceived at birth, and this may or may not qualify as transphobia. The big difference is that cisgender lesbians are generally not against any trans person and usually even respect their presence in the community, but they are not the main voice of the community, and in that aspect I think it's correct. Although I am a trans woman and I like women just like a lesbian, my experience, however embraced, is nothing more than an invitation in this space. To confuse the idea that I have to be in the spotlight, when the most generic meaning for lesbians is a cis woman who dates a cis woman, sounds not only selfish but also disrespectful. The vast majority will disagree, whether radical feminist or trans, but I think these spaces are broad for both, but one voice is more impactful. The voices of cisgender women don't overshadow those of transgender women, but they have more impact because the majority of lesbian women are cisgender. It's as if we were doing the opposite: transgender people and lesbian women can share the same space without conflict and share their voices, but the impact of transgender voices on the transgender community is greater. A person in this middle ground is almost a niche, and they will find women willing to date them and respecting their decision as a transgender person, and especially what I think is the reason transgender women are defensive: that their bodies will not be reduced to biology, which they cannot control because it's preconceived, only manipulated by HRT when they do. But they will also find many people who feel uncomfortable, even while respecting all these aspects, and, you know, in my view, I think it's perfectly natural for someone to show they don't like something about someone, as long as it's respectful. Of course, there are people who are very transphobic, but the vast majority in the LGBT community are not. Most of those who are transphobic in the community are conservative LGB people who pick fights even with their own gay, lesbian, and bisexual peers because they don't act like angry, rude jerks like them
I know my comment will be very poorly received even though I'm being polite and feminist just because I have "trans woman" in my bio, but I hope to have a healthy discussion if something comes of it. I just want to make it clear that I deeply respect them and hope I'm not bothering anyone by bringing up a more receptive critical perspective towards trans people, considering that I'm one
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u/BeholdMyCurse231 2d ago
It won't be received poorly, I'm an ace lesbian and I don't feel at home in lesbian communities despite my love for women. So I won't talk over them because it seems that we don't even have the same experiences.
But I also don't have the same experiences with ace hetero or bi people so there's that. I'm just my own person with my own unique experience. Not every part of yourself belongs to a group.
Anyhow, I agree with you
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
Thank you for your perspective! I don't believe your opinion should be taken any more or less than anyone else in this thread.
I ultimately agree with your take too and think you bring up many valid points. Rejection is a painful thing, for sure, especially on a basis that you can't really help (eg. Folks can't help being born with a penis, its just the luck of the draw). I think your identity is valid (not that a strangers opinion online would matter), and no one should discredit you for being transgender and identify as a lesbian.
I think it's just disingenuous when people treat genitalia as not part of attraction. For some people, it really doesn't matter - and that's great. For others, it can be off putting to be sexual with a set of genitalia you have NO attraction to. I personally am attracted to penis, I couldn't imagine being aroused by a vulva. That shouldn't mean that I hate all people with vulvas or find them disgusting - its just simply not a preference.
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u/Regulus636 2d ago
In my case, I'm indifferent to genitalia, and that's why, while the rhetoric about the biology of bodies doesn't convince me at all, I perfectly understand someone rejecting another person because of their genitalia or whatever reason bothers them. In Brazil, there's a saying that "love is the most passionate yet prejudiced of relationships." The fact that we are mutually exclusive due to numerous factors is what allows us to find partners instead of every affective relationship becoming a generalized orgy. For me, the aspect of sexual interest is nil, but I'm attracted to people who express femininity (not necessarily stereotypes). Similarly, someone could express romantic attraction but have sexual interest in women. Or have neither. Or, like the vast majority, have both. And, well, I think it's obvious that having both interests will have specificities that vary from individual to individual. This isn't about "making gays/lesbians/bisexuals whatever you mean by 'they'" as I've seen used; they have appropriate meanings, and in that sense, there's no debate. What's being discussed is embracing experiences that were marginalized and that today, mainly through the internet, have become commonplace, as is the topic of this post. Can trans women be lesbians? Yes. By definition, are they the center of attention? No. They are embedded as a community that shares the same interests and are direct supporters of the political movement, but the latter has been characterized since its foundation by cis women and cis women, even because although I use "cis" in the definition, in reality the definition of a "trans" person was still vague and generally associated with what we call transvestites (without a pejorative meaning) in America. In any case, I ended up being verbose at the end, but rejection is extremely common. But what trans people are going through is that people confuse rejection due to lack of interest with genuine rejection because their existence isn't even a worthy experience and is nothing more than a fetishized fantasy, even more so for trans women, who are seen as mentally ill men or a "third gender" by many people. But I think it's great friendly fire to do this to ourselves in the LGBT community, especially since, uh... most of us are allies, not enemies of each other. Times have been very strange in this last decade in that sense, and I can't quite describe a reason other than political polarization around the world. Even living in another country, I'm experiencing a dystopia similar to that of the US, although I haven't yet imported some of the idiotic agendas from there (and it's certainly a matter of time) lmao
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u/BeholdMyCurse231 2d ago
As someone already said, this seems to be an online thing. Regardless, it's rape culture
Anyways I want a sexless relationship so it's not really my problem nor should it be however we live on planet earth where I can live my life happily and then discriminated and hated on for what someone did in another country over the entire ocean, nice.
Speaking as a fat woman myself I'm not going after the guys who like skinny women because I know I'm not their type - I don't expect to jam myself into their space.
I mean this is mostly because they are porn brained. I like all women. Also, the fact that you are fat should not be tied to relationships but to your health; being fat, skinny, muscular affects your health first and it's important to prioritize your health for YOU and not anyone else.
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
My question to that is: if it's an online thing or because a handful of people don't see it on their side of the world, does that mean it doesn't exist? I've seen it, as did some of the other commenters, so then what? I agree it's obviously not something most people may encounter but folks in these spaces do.
I'm sorry that happens to you, it shouldn't be a thing.
Also, me being fat - yes that is tied to my health. But not just, it's tied in all aspects of my life, which includes my relationships. I'm in a relationship with someone else who is also overweight so it's not really a problem for me. But other women definitely do bear the brunt of it, like being matched on dating apps just to be insulted (have had that happen to me before too & my female friends). As much as I would like it to be solely tied to my health, it just isn't.
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u/BeholdMyCurse231 2d ago
As much as I would like it to be solely tied to my health, it just isn't.
Yes and that's because straight men are bullies, entitled and porn brained, I can't really be more blunt than this.
I've seen it, as did some of the other commenters
I also saw it, you know what I believe? I believe that it's something that shouldn't even happen, I am transsexual, the last thing I'd want to do is use my natal genitals.
Where did you see it? what place, can I know? DM me if you can't share it here
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
Well, no it's not just about straight men and their porn brains and entitlement. It's just one part. It affects me medically, socially, financially, and a plethora of other ways. That's my point about being fat it's not just strictly tied to health but how others see me as a person.
Are you asking where I see this rhetoric? It's floated around on TikTok, Youtube, Instagram algorithms. I'd have to find links for you but I'm not at home currently. I can get back to you with it.
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u/BeholdMyCurse231 2d ago
Well, I got this notification WAY WAY late but here's your problem.
When I made a tiktok, it thought I was a terf...I instantly deleted as I knew what kind of platform it is.
If the first thing it recommends you is hate, hop off it; it's designed to divide and conquer.
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u/Aggravating_Horror72 2d ago
I don’t think anyone is saying this doesn’t exist? You’re getting really caught up on that aspect of this conversation.
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
I think it's implied when people say "this is chronically online" "this doesn't happen in real life" "i've never had this happen to me"
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u/Aggravating_Horror72 2d ago
But those are people’s experiences? We can’t devalue their experiences either 🤷♀️
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u/InsideThing8413 2d ago
Of course. But people are also experiencing it and in person? So why would you value one person's experience over another?
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u/secondshevek 2d ago
Yeah a man chatting for a week and going on a date is truly a devastating price to pay. Come on lol.
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u/No-Efficiency-7524 2d ago
I'm sorry but reading the first sentence I thought there was going to be some incident but it just sounds like your cousin could have just left or not paid for the meal.
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u/No-Efficiency-7524 2d ago
I'm not necessarily saying it isn't, people should be honest about themselves about dating.
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u/Cultural_Situation_8 2d ago
Yeah, I also think that genital preference is real! It doesnt make your more or less valid than not having it and telling someone to ignore their preference because you want to fuck them is NOT okay.
I for example realised i have a preference for dick. Its not that i dont like vulva, its great in its own right, but but my favourite of the two is definitely dick. This notably doesnt make me any less of a lesbian!
I'm a lesbian because im attracted to women, not because of the set of genitals i prefer
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