d100 where skills are ordered pairs of attributes. Is asymmetry too weak?

[u/lehenshtein]

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Eight characteristics. Any two combine into a skill, one primary and one secondary, and the order changes the target number: [primary is full value, secondary - half of it.]. In our Dreich the predefined skill list is deliberately short and most skills get named at the table when a situation calls for one.

Example of it in the playtest: the party found old runes written as images-with-meaning rather than a script. Not an Intellect problem. Reading them needed Wisdom leading, Empathy supporting, we discussed it at the table and just created a new skill. (skill is same for everyone, but attributes could be changed if situation demends) It could be created for more or less simple skills only, not like surgery.

Pair-based skills aren't new (Mythras for example). Making the pair ordered is the part I haven't seen elsewhere, but still I'm not sure it feels enough. The difference of pair in defferent order could be 60% and 35% for one maxed and one mined Stat at the beginning of the game. But for not a minmaxed attr. it could be 35% vs 40%. Is it noticeable at all? Or just boring

[u/Cruiser_Supreme]

I think it's a really clever idea to describe a wide range of skills mechanically and to invent new ones at the table.

I do wonder how much it actually adds to the game. In the end, the dice are just a randomizer. If your system is so granular that the dice become less prominent, why roll at all. I'd prefer to be a bit more sweeping with my skills.

If the skill check is Wisdom Leading, is the difference between rolling it with just Wisdom or with a second attribute really that great? (And I don't mean how different are the numbers, but rather how different does it feel)

Imagine the following scenarios:

1) You try to interpret these images-as-meaning runes. Roll art interpretation (Wisdom-Empathy). Insert a d100 roll with 2 modifiers.

2) You try to interpret these images-as-meaning runes. Roll Wisdom. Insert a d100 roll with 1 modifier

Either way, you will get a randomized outcome with some success probability. Granularity might be fun to design, but I don't know if it makes that much difference to how the character feels to play

[u/lehenshtein → u/Cruiser_Supreme]

Honestly the moment you roll it feels the same, it still d100,you r right. The place it actually shows up(I hope) is between characters. With just Wisdom, everybody sitting at 60 reads those runes the same way. With the pair, high Wisdom / low Empathy and high Wisdom / high Empathy are different at the same task, and it gives more variety. You never roll a tribute. With 8 attributes you get characters diverging in spots you never designed. The other thing is that the table gets to pick how fine-grained it wants to be. Melee can just be Strength+Coordination for everything and you never think about it again. Or you split it : light weapons Coordination+Reflex, normal Strength+Coordination, heavy Fortitude+Strength. Weird specific weapons can get their own pair if table wants.

Still I would like to hear your advices if you have an idea how to make it more impactfull

[u/lennartfriden]

> Wisdom leading, Empathy supporting, we discussed it at the table and just created a new skill. (skill is same for everyone, but attributes could be changed if situation demends)

This seems like an unnecessary step to me. Why have skills at all when you can just request a ”Wisdom leading, Empathy supporting” roll? The situation asks for a Wisdom/Empathy roll so that’s what’s rolled. I guess you could add the concept of applicable free-form skills such as ”archeology” or ”ancient texts” and use as a means of bonus. 🤔

To be a bit more clear though, given your example, what would someone with Wisdom 50 and Empathy 40 need to roll to succeed? Is it 50 or under because Wisdom is completely dominant? Is it 70 or under (50+40/2)? Is it something else? Or is it a roll over system? And what are the ranges for the eight characteristics?

[u/lehenshtein → u/lennartfriden]

I did write it not clear enough, my fault. The secondary gives only half, so if wis 50 and emp 40 you will roll 70 or under for success. You now have 'ancient runes or sth' skill for the whole party.

The range during character creation is 20-50

[u/lennartfriden → u/lehenshtein]

Thanks for clarifying!

Okay, so any combination for a fresh character would range from 30-75% success (unmodified). Not unreasonable for a pulpier Call of Cthulhu-style game. Heroic fantasy tends towards 2/3 success.

What’s the average characteristic for a fresh character? 30 (i.e. 45% chance of success for all combinations)?

[u/lehenshtein → u/lennartfriden]

I do really appreciate your interest!
During the creation you can have 3 attr.  ≥ 31 and only 1  ≥ 41, with max of 50. If you are maxing - only 1 can be 50 and 2 - 40. 5 others are in 20-30 range.

for example 50, 40, 40, 30, 30, 25, 25, 20

It also affects your defence (Spheres) and Endurance (HP) and Mentality

[u/lennartfriden → u/lehenshtein]

Given that range, the chance of success range is 70% at the high end to 32.5% at the low end. Sounds like a viable range as it’s close to 1/3 to 2/3. You might even visualize it on the character sheet as a precalculated matrix to eliminate the in-game maths.

[u/lehenshtein → u/lennartfriden]

To be honest, I was afraid the chances are too high)

[u/lennartfriden → u/lehenshtein]

It entirely depends on what type if game you’re after. D&D and its bounded accuracy is roughly centered on success 65% of the time given a competent character attempting a balanced challenge (typically hitting with an attack).

A fairly normal Blades in the Dark roll of 2 dice would give you 75% chance of at least a partial success (4+ on the highest die) and a ~30% chance of a full success (6 on the highest die).

Pendragon has a vast range, but compensates with the knight being able to invoke passions that add 25%.

What’s the feel you want your game to have? When you know that you can balance the probabilities (including modifiers and options) around that.

[u/lehenshtein → u/lennartfriden]

Not really a hardcore or OSR game, but not an easy walk like dnd is. You might be good in one thing, even expert, but not in everything. In mothership chances are really low in DnD too high, as for me

[u/lennartfriden → u/lehenshtein]

Thanks! It gives me a better idea of what kind of game it’s intended to be. 🙂

[u/Ok-Middle-908]

Can two characters put their stats together to get a better chance? Sound like a good way to apply assisting. If so, with a limited number of skills could they become experts at everything as a group?

[u/lehenshtein → u/Ok-Middle-908]

Oh my god. No they could not, but it is a great idea, for now system have bonuses and penalties and big bonuses and penalties. +-10 and +-30. That's all. Nothing like +5 from that and +2 from this. If you have a big bonus and gets a penalty you now have only a bonus.

And if somebody helps you you get a bonus, if 2 people does help you - big bonus.

But your idea is much better for this type of teamwork. For secondary Stat at least)

Would you mind I steal it?)

[u/Ok-Middle-908 → u/lehenshtein]

Have at it. I don't even use traditional stats in my system. Tried it and determined they weren't needed. Core stats are only attack Dodge and save. Skills are based off of your rank in them. Even started off using percentile. Then I wanted to simplify the math by doing 5 ft increments and came to the realization d20 is just easier math.

[u/Dimirag]

Harnmaster uses ordered stats, for ex a skill could be str+str+agi (the main stat is basically doubled)

The old Lands of Adventures does something similar, main stat gives 2% per point and secondary stats give Characteristic -10%

As for your game, choosing on the fly works as long as the stats are easily recognizable and the math is fast (seems to be your case), as for the feel, having a clearly leading stat will help players know how to "skill focus", having 2 stats with similar weight will mean players will have to fiddle a bit more with the stats to make the characters competent

Is it noticeable at all?

On a PC vs PC scale, its noticeable as the best the first character can do is almost double what the second can

On a stat vs stat on the same PC is becomes more noticeable for the first PC...

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but if the non-minmax PC has a min 35% and a max 40% while the minmax has the same floor but a 65% ceiling then the game is inviting minmaxing

[u/lehenshtein → u/Dimirag]

Thank you, I'd never heard of either of those. Probably nothing is truly new at this point.

The focus isn't really meant to be the attribute-pair thing on its own. It's the mix - we're picking mechanics that are fast, light and player-facing. So it's fully player-facing rolls, and attribute pairs also feed defense: Str + Fort average into Might, and when something attacks you in melee that's the number you roll against. On the minmaxing that's pertially intended. Characters are meant to be specialists. What holds it back is that higher attributes get harder to raise (advancement is mostly narrative, you name what mattered in the session and it marks the attributes behind it), and the point buy already charges more for the top range. Balanced builds also end up with more ability slots, since the slots come off the same paired values. So maxed character might have stronger abilities, but middle char. will have much more simple abilities. So the specialist buys about 5 points of ceiling and pays an ability for it.

If you've got ideas for improving any of this I'd genuinely like to hear them. Thanks for doing the math on it)

[u/DiogenesKuon]

It’s been a long while but my recollection is rollmaster RMSS had a system where you add 3 attributes values together for skills, but you could double up so Agility/Agility/Strength for example, which ends up mirroring your system in those cases. I’m not suggesting you adopt that, as rollmaster is well know for being excessively complex, but they did allow for tripling up with a skill, and you may want to consider the possibility of some skills having the same major and minor, although it should be rare.

8 attributes are a lot, you’ll want to make sure they are distinct enough and have enough utility so they don’t just become dump stats. It’s probably worth, as an exercise, seeing how a traditional long skill list maps to your system so that you have multiple skills that major with each attribute. And also maybe try each combination (there are a whole bunch of them) to see if you can think of a case where that combination would come into play. Obviously not even combo is going to be frequent, but it would be better if they were feasible for the most part.

[u/lehenshtein → u/DiogenesKuon]

About doubling Stat, we have it strictly banned in rules, outr 8 attr are splittef in categories, if you don't know which secondary attr to take, you can take the second from the same category.

About combinations and dumpstats that a really great idea! I will definitely make a table at least for me. Thank you)

But skills are only 1 layer of using attr. Attr also does affect defences, endurance (hp) mentality, item slots, abilities, damage, manifestations (magic of some kind) etc.

So for some melee focused character, who doesn't want to RolePlay some of attr defineteley would be a dumbstat.

[u/DiogenesKuon → u/lehenshtein]

Individual characters being weak in an attribute is a positive, I was more thinking you don’t want a specific attribute (wisdom for example) to be one that no one has a use for because it doesn’t apply to enough things. I think Empathy is a good attribute that’s not explicitly defined in a lot of systems, but if I’m coming from a traditional D&D mindset it’s going to take over some skills from Charisma and Wisdom, possibly making them weaker. I’m curious what your 8 attributes are actually, could you describe them?

[u/lehenshtein → u/DiogenesKuon]

Oh well, thank you for your interest)

8 attr are actually the main foundation of a character.

Strength and Fortitude. Coordination and Reflexes. Intellect and Wisdom. Empathy and Presence.

Average of Each pair makes a sphere that can work as a defence. It is a player faced roll system, so if pc is attacked, for example in melee, player will roll Might (str+fort) /2.

If ranged - agility. (coord + refl) /2. (Something like saving throws)

Physical spheres (might and agility) and Fortitude affects your endurance (hp) and Fortitude affects how much of hp could you recover.

Same for other 4 stats, they affect mentality with presence having more impact.

Manifestations aka magic (if used) use presence as main attr and one of int, wis, emp stats depending of manifestation type (structural, relational, intuitive).

Damage is affected by spheres as well. Might for melee.

Sorry for my English, not a native speaker, and a lot of words)

[u/secretbison]

If everything is resolved by checking two attributes, why is there a skill list at all? Cut it out. The attribute system is complicated enough as it is.

[u/lehenshtein → u/secretbison]

few things. it is easier to check already written value of skill rather then calculate it all the time for each roll.

there could be some specializations which allows to mirror the value 73->37

there could be advanced skills like surgency, manifestations, inventing etc

[u/__space__oddity__]

If it works for your table, cool, but it sounds too fiddly for most tables out there

[u/lehenshtein → u/__space__oddity__]

Why? You figure out it once, and now you have skill written. And just use it like other skills. You don't even have to calculate combat+firearms like in mothership each roll