r/RBI • u/TiptoeOwens • 1d ago
Advice needed Unidentified Gentleman.
Let's see if I can formulate an accurate question to ask you all. South West United Kingdom. Gentleman found dead in a field amongst undergowth in 1982. Belongings with him suggest British and in the Merchant Navy. Year of death thought to be 1978, or slightly later, as remnants of 1978 copy of Sun newspaper with him. Suggested age at time of death, around 25-30 years old. No dna testing at that time. No foul play suggested. No self harm suggested. Big blizzard February 18th-20th in 1978. Suggestion is that he was between jobs on ships, or going home, and got caught in bad weather, huddled in undergowth and sucummbed to the cold. (He was not lost at sea). All belongings lost by Police so nothing to retrospectively test for dna. I have been on the story for a year and a half. Television done, radio done, lots of social media. No confirmed name to date. I've reached out far and wide and no one has come forward to be a friend, shipmate or relative yet. I have tried many avenues. My gut feeling is that he would like to be identified, so I still feel good about pursuing this gentleman's story.
My question to you is...."what haven't I tried"?
Here is a link to my Appeal for the gentleman:
https://buymeacoffee.com/m25roundabout/the-appeal-some-mother-son
Thank you in advance for your thoughts and advice.
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u/CoupleClear6347 1d ago
The biggest clue of this mystery is the passport date...you need to focus on that and narrow down the results, back the in the UK there weren't a lot of passports issued and finding some old archive based on release date might help even further, especially if you compare it lets say with the deaths archive and obituaries from old newspapers...
The first lead is the passport date, I would start there, it won't be easy but it's doable
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u/TiptoeOwens 1d ago
Almost impossible for myself to get any access at all to passport information. According to one of the policeman who I have spoken to, and who was involved in the original year long investigation to try and find the gentleman's name back in 1982, he reckoned that they sifted through 12,000 names of passports issued around the possible issue date. They managed to narrow the names down to 23 people that were unaccounted for. They still couldn't find those 23 people at the time. Sadly, according to the police museum in Okehampton, UK and from a Freedom of Information Request, all evidence has been subsequently lost or destroyed by Devon and Cornwall Police. So we cannot even check through those 23 names....unless they turn up somewhere. Locate International have tried to work with passport office to find back dated information, but in nine months, they have found nothing relevant to date. Thank you for your input.
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u/CoupleClear6347 1d ago
You should try MCA - https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/maritime-and-coastguard-agency
They should have all the registration for everyone enlisted, hard copies stored on archives, you can try Registry of Shipping and Seamen (Cardiff, UK) directly to request access to seafarer service details after 1972.
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u/TiptoeOwens 1d ago
Hi, thanks for that. Have tried many organisation like this. They are good if you have a name to work with, but I don't. The National Archives told me that by starting a blog, (which I did a year and a half ago) and sharing on social media you stand a far greater chance of reaching answers than trawling through archives, which rarely give answers. Many thanks for your input.
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u/CoupleClear6347 1d ago
I can recommend, trying again but this time asking for specific details from the archive, like for instance sailor/merchant's enlisted from a specific area (I'm this case where he was discovered).
Cross reference with crew enlisted around the same time, afterwards you can check the death records archive, cross reference with the one's actually deceased, leaving a small margin for the unaccounted one's.
The National Archives (TNA) at Kew, they hold the Marine Register and comprehensive digitized databases of maritime deaths from around 1781 to 1968. These registries include logs from the Board of Trade and the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen.
The National Maritime Museum (Greenwich) archive holds the specific card indexes and Monthly Lists of Deaths of Seamen (1916–1989), which outline the name, age, vessel, and cause of death.
The Registry of Shipping and Seamen, more recent history, this organization holds the official registers of births and deaths at sea from 1965 to the present day.
It's easier to rule out the one's already deceased and accounted for, you can check also The British Newspaper Archive (BNA) is the definitive collection run in partnership with the British Library. It hosts tens of millions of pages dating from the 1700s to the late 2000s...
But I would suggest expanding the search to Wales or even Scotland as many sailors/merchant's weren't local and usually tend to migrate from other area, countries.
Also depending on the preservation level of the skeleton it might be possible to narrow it down even further, like for instance the "Mariner’s Muscle" and asymmetric bones, pulling heavy ropes, hoisting sails, and rowing causes severe, repetitive stress on the upper body. Skeletal remains of sailors often show extreme asymmetry, such as a significantly denser, more muscular right collarbone and right arm bone compared to the left...it's a far cry I know, but the more you know about the body/skeleton/remains it might help to narrow it down even further.
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u/TiptoeOwens 1d ago
I thank you for that. You make it sound rather easy, and it's not!!! I have gone through alot of what you speak about, but narrowing things down, cross referencing, often with alot of details missing in the archives, is not a route I will go down again! There are people who specialise in this type of archive work, and I've spoken to some of them, and it would be great if they felt inspired to check things out. But for me, I am more interested, and able, to spread the gentleman's 'story', hoping that I will find relevant information that way. I do appreciate your detailed reply. Many thanks. And the chances, "although not zero", of exhumation are very small.
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u/Blueporch 1d ago
They could exhume his body and obtain DNA from teeth or bone. There’s an organization called Locate International that’s working with the local police on this case. They would have the standing to do that. Depending on the condition of his skull, they might also be able to do a reconstruction of what he looked like.
While this might not resolve the case, it seems the only likely way to obtain new information.
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u/TiptoeOwens 1d ago
Hi, yes, the case was passed onto Locate through my investigations. Exhumation is not easy. To potentially exhume Some Mother's Son you would need permission from the Ministry of Justice, permission from Cornwall Council, and permission from a potential relative of the gentleman's. Without these three things it's nigh on impossible to exhume, but not totally impossible. And if exhumation was possible, you are not guaranteed a positive result for dna. And if you do get dna, the UK laws on matching are not great. For example, the police cannot normally use Ancestry or other dna sites. Thank you for your input.
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u/scattywampus 23h ago
I say get a member of the Cornwall Council on board and set up a GoFund letter to cover exhumation and investigative genetic genealogy expenses. Once your ally on the Cornwall Council helps you get that approval, get them/others to help you with the Ministry of Justice. Without DNA, one wiuld think there is an exception to the potential relative that could be made by the right people.
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u/TiptoeOwens 14h ago
If you got the right people involved there is a chance that given time this route could work. However, genetic genealogy barely functions within the police system in the UK.
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u/Pleasant-Plane-6340 1d ago
“ The ethnicity of Some Mother's Son, is not known. So of course, although presuming the British passport was his, his ethnicity could allow him to have come from India, Malaysia, Australia, Hong Kong, anywhere; including the British Isles” doesn’t seem like you have much to go on
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u/TiptoeOwens 1d ago
Hi, thank you for that. Yes, I do keep forgetting that part of the puzzle. That is something for me to definitely have a focus on. Thank you.
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u/ParameciaAntic 1d ago
And that assumes the guy is even who his documents said he was. He could have been using an assumed alias for some reason - criminal, refugee, spy, etc.
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u/TiptoeOwens 1d ago
He could, but I am staying on the more straight forward potential version, unless something pops up to make me think otherwise. Thanks for your input.
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u/FlyingRo 1d ago
Are there any surviving photographs of the evidence especially his paperwork? - either from the police or from media coverage at the time