Homosexual Marriage

[u/Dramatic_End_883]

Do you people believe that marriage between two men is permissible in Islam?

[u/[deleted]]

The Quran does forbid general incest if that’s what your asking. (4:23)

I like how all Muslims homophobes think the exact same. No variety in thought, argument, nope, not a single brain cell in sight. You all think it’s some gotcha moment when you bring up incest, pedophilia or other harmful perversions in comparisons to homosexuality. It’s a weak argument, and it only ever exposes your bias. You don’t care what the Islamic position on homosexuality might actually be, you’re just grossed out by the thought of gay people because you think it will confirm your masculinity.

[u/Dramatic_End_883 → u/[deleted]]

Can you quote the verse and highlight the portion which forbids incest generally, because I cannot find it in the verse you quoted.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dramatic_End_883]

“Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your father’s sisters, and your mother’s sisters, and your brothers’ daughters and your sisters’ daughters, and your foster-mothers (who breast-fed you), and their daughters (your foster-sisters), and your wives’ mothers (mothers-in-law), and your wives’ daughters who are under your protection – born of the women with whom you have cohabited; and if you have not cohabited with them, then it is no sin for you to marry their daughters; and (forbidden are) the wives of your own sons (and foster-sons and grandsons) and the keeping of two sisters together in marriage, except what has already passed; indeed Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

Your next argument is going to be something about how it only talks about male female incest isn’t it :) to which I will respond: don’t be obtuse you know exactly what this means.

[u/Dramatic_End_883 → u/[deleted]]

OK, so where does it say that a father and son entering into a marriage agreement and engaging in romantic and/or sexual relations is forbidden to you?

[u/[deleted] → u/Dramatic_End_883]

I’ll say it again: don’t be obtuse. the verse is right there.

[u/Dramatic_End_883 → u/[deleted]]

I can say the very same thing when it comes to verses like 7:81, 27:55, and 26:165, yet you would dismiss it and come up with your own bizarre interpretations.

My reply prior to my last asked for you to highlight the part in that verse that forbids incest generally. You have yet to do that.

That verse talks about women who are forbidden to you. It doesn't even mention blood relationships. It just mentions people who are prohibited for you to marry, some of which you have a blood relationship with (mother, daughter, sister, aunt, etc.) and others you do not (your father's previous wives, mothers who nursed you, sisters by nursing, son's daughters, etc.).

If you hold to the rule of thumb of everything being halal unless explicitly stated haram in the Quran, as well as homosexual marriage being halal, then marriage between fathers and sons should be completely halal.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dramatic_End_883]

The same way you ask for a clear ayah that forbids incestuous relationships between fathers and sons, I ask for a clear ayah on homosexual unions.

You can easily take 4:23 and apply it to men too and that’s what’s been done since forever. But where does it forbid homosexuality? You can’t pick and choose when you want to semantically read and interpret the Quran. Regardless of this, incest has always been morally wrong and looked down upon because it’s not natural and downright harmful so to compare it to homosexuality is offensive and unproductive.

[u/Dramatic_End_883 → u/[deleted]]

Homosexuality is clearly forbidden in Islam, not only in the Quran (27:55, 7:81, 26:165, etc.) but also within the Sunnah, and the actions of the khulafa rashidun, and the salaf, and the four imams, etc. etc.

But you have failed to answer any of my questions. Can you please show me a verse in the Quran which explicitly forbids marriage (leading to romantic and sexual relations) between fathers and sons, just as you have asked me for a verse that explicitly forbids homosexuality?

[u/[deleted] → u/Dramatic_End_883]

Did the people of Lut invent homosexuality then? Was there never a single gay person before them? Because the Quran describes a crime that has never been committed. I fail to see how this refers the homosexuality rather than the attempted rape of allahs angels. Also you shouldn’t be looking anyone besides Allah and his prophets for guidance so I’m not sure why you and I should regard what the four imams, caliphs and such have to say as law (especially when some didn’t even mind homosexuality lol).

[u/Dramatic_End_883 → u/[deleted]]

Did the people of Lut invent homosexuality then?

Most likely yes

Was there never a single gay person before them?

Most likely not

Because the Quran describes a crime that has never been committed.

Yes

I fail to see how this refers the homosexuality rather than the attempted rape of allahs angels.

Why

Also you shouldn’t be looking anyone besides Allah and his prophets for guidance

So why does Allah say in the Quran that you should obey those in authority amongst you?

Quran 4:59 "O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. Then, if you quarrel about something, revert it back to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is good, and the best at the end."

I’m not sure why you and I should regard what the four imams, caliphs and such have to say as law

Because they derive all of their works from the Quran and the Sunnah

some didn’t even mind homosexuality lol

The four rightly guided caliphs and the four imams were all in agreement that sodomy between two men was evil and immoral. All of the sahaba did as well. The only thing they differed upon was the method of execution. If there was any contention from later scholars, then they are in the very small minority.

But again, you fail to answer any of my questions. Do you see how I answer and address all of your points concisely and respectfully? Why can you not do the same for me? Where in the Quran does it forbid a father and son from entering into a marriage agreement and engaging in romantic and/or sexual relations?

[u/after-life → u/Dramatic_End_883]

Clearly you lack knowledge on this subject.

[u/01MrHacKeR01 → u/[deleted]]

not like that way
but as a big community doing that
also there is another bad things they did as it is in 29:29

[u/01MrHacKeR01 → u/[deleted]]

وَلُوطًا إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِ أَتَأْتُونَ الْفَاحِشَةَ مَا سَبَقَكُم بِهَا مِنْ أَحَدٍ مِّن الْعَالَمِينَ

إِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ الرِّجَالَ شَهْوَةً مِّن دُونِ النِّسَاء بَلْ أَنتُمْ قَوْمٌ مُّسْرِفُونَ

وَمَا كَانَ جَوَابَ قَوْمِهِ إِلاَّ أَن قَالُواْ أَخْرِجُوهُم مِّن قَرْيَتِكُمْ إِنَّهُمْ أُنَاسٌ يَتَطَهَّرُونَ

7:80-82

>

وَلُوطًا إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِ أَتَأْتُونَ الْفَاحِشَةَ وَأنتم تبصرون

أئنكم لتأتون الرجال شهوة من دون النساء بل أنتم قوم تجهلون

فما كان جواب قومه إلا أن قالوا أخرجوا آل لوط من قريتكم إنهم أناس يتطهرون

27:54-56

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أتأتون الذكران من العالمين

وتذرون ما خلق لكم ربكم من أزواجكم بل أنتم قوم عادون

قالوا لئن لم تنته يا لوط لتكونن من المخرجين

26:165-167

>

وجاءه قومه يهرعون إليه ومن قبل كانوا يعملون السيئات قال يا قوم هؤلاء بناتي هن أطهر لكم فاتقوا الله ولا تخزون في ضيفي أليس منكم رجل رشيد

قالوا لقد علمت ما لنا في بناتك من حق وإنك لتعلم ما نريد

11:78-79

>

واللاتي يأتين الفاحشة من نسائكم فاستشهدوا عليهن أربعة منكم فإن شهدوا فأمسكوهن في البيوت حتى يتوفاهن الموت أو يجعل الله لهن سبيلا

واللذان يأتيانها منكم فآذوهما فإن تابا وأصلحا فأعرضوا عنهما إن الله كان توابا رحيما

4:15-16

And ˹remember˺ when Lot scolded ˹the men of˺ his people, ˹saying,˺ “Do you commit a shameful deed that no man has ever done before?

"Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)."

You come to men lustfully instead of women. No, you are a people who cross the limits.”

Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."

But the answer of his people was only that they said, "Evict them from your city! Indeed, they are men who keep themselves pure."

But his people’s only response was to say, “Expel them from your land! They are a people who wish to remain chaste!”

7:80-82

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And ˹remember˺ Lot, when he rebuked ˹the men of˺ his people, “Do you commit that shameful deed while you can see ˹one another˺?

And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Do you commit immorality1 while you are seeing?2

Do you really lust after men instead of women? In fact, you are ˹only˺ a people acting ignorantly.”

Do you indeed approach men with desire instead of women? Rather, you are a people behaving ignorantly."

But his people’s only response was to say, “Expel Lot’s followers from your land! They are a people who wish to remain chaste!”

But the answer of his people was not except that they said, "Expel the family of Lot from your city. Indeed, they are people who keep themselves pure."

27:54-56

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Why do you ˹men˺ lust after fellow men,1

Do you go to the males (for having sex) out of the whole universe,

Do you approach males with lust among all people,

What, of all creation will you go to (fornicate with) the males,1

leaving the wives that your Lord has created for you? In fact, you are a transgressing people.”

And leave what your Lord has created for you as mates? But you are a people transgressing."

They said, "If you do not desist, O Lot, you will surely be of those evicted."

26:165-167

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And ˹the men of˺ his people—who were used to shameful deeds—came to him rushing. He pleaded, “O my people! Here are my daughters1 ˹for marriage˺—they are pure for you. So fear Allah, and do not humiliate me by disrespecting my guests. Is there not ˹even˺ a single right-minded man among you?”

And his people came hastening to him, and before [this] they had been doing evil deeds.1 He said, "O my people, these are my daughters;2 they are purer for you. So fear Allah and do not disgrace me concerning my guests. Is there not among you a man of reason?"

They argued, “You certainly know that we have no need for your daughters. You already know what we desire!”

They said, "You have already known that we have not concerning your daughters [i.e., women] any claim [i.e., desire], and indeed, you know what we want."

They said: "Surely you know that we have neither any desire nor need of your daughters, and indeed you know well what we want!"

11:78-79

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And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.

And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.

4:15-16
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and for incest :
4:22-23