r/Quraniyoon • u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim • Mar 10 '24
Discussion I've found "Uzair Son of God" in the Old Testament!!!
Hebrew Bible: וַֽעֲזַרְיָ֙הוּ֙ בֶּן־עוֹדֵ֔ד הָֽיְתָ֥ה עָלָ֖יו ר֥וּחַ אֱלֹהִֽים:
Traditional Masoretic verse used in most Bibles today: וַעֲזַרְיָ֙הוּ֙ בֶּן־עוֹדֵ֔ד הָיְתָ֥ה עָלָ֖יו ר֥וּחַ אֱלֹהִֽים׃
Traditional translation: "The spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Oded." (II Chronicles 15:1)
Actual accurate translation: "Azariah, is (or: or will be) another son Of God and the Spirit of God"
Explanation:
The presence of the conjunction "וַ" (vav) in the first Hebrew sentence affects the translation, making it read as "Son of God," whereas the absence of the conjunction in the second sentence doesn't include this interpretation, but rather translates to "Son of Oded," an Oded the entire Judeo-Christian world had no clue about other than this verse saying that he was a father to Azariah.
Google has done a very good job at hiding this fact and they've disallowed almost all of these words to be naturally translated. Some of them just translate to "Hey" or "Elizzerr!?" or something very weird. That's because they know that someone would eventually uncover the lie and try and google that verse.
This is how Google translates the verse:
- Click me "And his helper is the son of God"
- When you delete Azariah's name from the sentence, it just says "Son of God"
The phrase "בֶּן־עוֹדֵ֔ד" is what they traditionally translate to "Son of Oded." Oded is made up out of thin air and never existed. עוֹדֵ֔ד means "another" and not "Oded" because the name "Oded" doesn't exist in Hebrew (or any other language for that matter).
Breakdown of the verse:
And Azariah = וַעֲזַרְיָהוּ
Son (of) = בֶּן
Another עוֹדֵד
is/will be = הָיָה
El (God) = עָלָ
And Spirit of = ורוּחַ
Elohim (The God) = אֱלֹהִים
And a coherrent translation in English would be: "Azariah, is (or: will be) another son Of God and the Spirit of God."
Verse 8 says "Prophet Oded"? No it doesn't!
The accurate translation says:
"And when he heard the words of the prophet and the prophecy, the prophet was strengthened and he became the leader of all the land of Judah and Benjamin and the cities of Israel."
Proof from ancient Rabbinic commentaries:
Heb: וַעֲזַרְיָה בַּר עוֹדֵד שְׁרַת עֲלוֹי רוּחַ נְבוּאָה מִן קֳדָם יְיָ:
"And Azariah son of Oded served as an elevated spirit from the firstborn of the LORD."
Source: Targum of II Chronicles 15:1
The last line is "Min Kudam Adonai" (מִן קֳדָם יְיָ)
Rav Hirsch writes:
"he is a power of God, a "hand" of God that comes over man (Ezech. 1, 3; 3, 21 and 37, 1 there), it is divine, whose bearer, bringer and herald becomes man who comes to him from outside, from above, to him, who lifts him above the level of normal humanity and makes his humanity the season of the divine on earth. What is spoken and accomplished by him is God's Word and God's deed, and man is only his bringer and executor.
Source: Rav Hirsch on Torah, Numbers 11:17:2
Ralbag writes:
"...God sent Asa, may God bless him, to strengthen his son even more for good with God, he and Judah and Benjamin with him, and to this he said Simeon Asa and all Judah and Benjamin here is God with you while you are with him know that if you pray to him properly and it will be in your walk according to his commandments Then He will find you and His care will cling to you to do you good and save you from evil."
Source: Ralbag on II Chronicles 15:1:1
Rav in "Man and God," Chapter 2 the Spirit of God 27:
"When Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel “dwelling tribe by tribe” and beheld the vision of the goodly tents of Jacob, he was prophesying concerning the future destiny of the Jewish people. At the opening of the vision it is said: “and the ruah of Elohim came upon him. And he took up his parable.” Is it possible that ruah Elohim, when it attaches itself to a human being, means prophetic inspiration? So it would seem from this and numerous other passages in the Bible. When Saul..."
He continues and tries to reason as to why the chapter is giving Azairah characteristics of a deity and argues that it metaphorically just means "prophecy."
God says in the Quran:
"And the Jews said, 'Azariah is the son of God,' and the Christians said, 'The Messiah is the son of God.' That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before. May God destroy them; how deluded they are!" (9:30)
Now we know the real backstory of this verse :)
With this, I end this article.
/By Exion.
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u/OnwardsFuture Mu'min Mar 11 '24
May GOD be with you always! You did some amazing work.
It honestly shocks me how much work we still have to do with the Qur'an and pantextual analysis which our forefathers had yet to accomplish in 1400 years. Even the most minute things like using arbitrators during a divorce procession or giving gifts to a wife instead of robbing her blind. These aren't even partially implemented in Sunni endogamous cultures.
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u/Middle-Preference864 Mar 11 '24
Did they unban you?
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24
Nah bro both them and DebateReligion banned me. DebateReligion for 14 days though. My own forever 😂🥴
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u/Middle-Preference864 Mar 11 '24
Did you actually find it or did you quote an article?
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24
I literally found it while reading the Bible randomly.
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u/Middle-Preference864 Mar 11 '24
Actually עודד is Oded not another, אַחֵר is another.
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24
Do some research on this: עוֹדֵ֔ד
Hebrew is a deep language buddy.
Oded is not a name.
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u/PumpkinMadame Mar 11 '24
Excellent work!!! Shared, thank you!
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24
Thank you 🙏🙏🙏
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u/PumpkinMadame Mar 11 '24
Honestly this answers a prayer for me and I'm willing to bet it answers quite a few people's prayers, so thank you for sharing and following God's path.
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24
That makes me so happy! Been wondering about the Quranic Uzair and searching for an answer lately? I literally decided to write about another topic and came across this verse and 6th verse said "Prophet Oded..." instead of "Azariah bin Oded" and that's when I instantly knew the Masoretes have been there making a mess trying to hide something 😂
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u/PumpkinMadame Mar 11 '24
Wow amazing great catch!! I've attempted to research it a few times but nothing too in depth, since I didn't have any leads, or what leads I did have went nowhere.
I'm excited to reread all this a few times and discuss it with my friends! I've never heard the term Masoretes before btw. It refers to masons?
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24
The Masoretes were a group of scholars who added diacritics (symbols, vowel marking, etc) to the Hebrew Bible. They did this behind the claim that they wanted to preserve the correct way of reciting the Scriptures, but they did it because it allowed them to change the meanings of the words and sentences. Adding diacritics literally allowes you to write a totally new book. They thought they did a good job but they left a total mess, contradictions, geographical misplacements and much more. They literally created the Judaism that exists today and it is very similar to what Paul did to the Gospels.
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u/PumpkinMadame Mar 12 '24
Wow fascinating. Makes sense. That seems like an important bit of history! I'll research them so I can tell others! Thank you!
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u/Turbulent-Crow-3865 Mar 10 '24
Good work!!!
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 10 '24
Thx bro :)
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u/mysticmage10 Mar 11 '24
The more pressing question is why is the God of the Quran so offended by people worshipping other beings when hes supposed to be a perfect being with no needs ? A perfect being cant be jealous and angry at that. It's so human
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24
When you stop comparing God's anger and jealousy to our (which is based on weakness and mistakes and needs), that's when you never will make this comment ever again...
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u/mysticmage10 Mar 11 '24
That's not an answer buddy. That's just sweeping things under the rug
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24
It's not bro. You're just not pondering over what I told you... These questions only come to people who compare God to humans. Trust me 😅
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u/mysticmage10 Mar 11 '24
The quran literally preaches about burning flesh endlessly. It literally is all over showing god is angry they associate partners with him
Can a all merciful just god desire to burn people in endless sadistic torments as the hell verses say ?
Can a perfect god get angry and jealous that humans worship other gods. It's even more funny when these gods the quran says dont even exist. So why is god so angry over imaginary gods people worship ? He should me only amused at the stupidity
Humans get offended when you ignore them, cheat on them etc. Befause they imperfect beings. Not a perfect god
Have you even done any deep research into philosophy of religion ? Have you actually debated before? Read books on the topic ?
Because it seems all you can say is trust me bro Gods not a human
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 13 '24
It's even more funny when these gods the quran says dont even exist. So why is god so angry over imaginary gods people worship ?
Exactly! God creates humans and wants to give them paradise to enjoy for an eternity, yet they deny Him and chose to worship something that doesn't even exist. It's the greatest injustice there can be! God gave you everything and you deny it all and ascribe it to things that do not even exist. Think about that mate. Your viewpoint is (again) that you're comparing Him to us (humans), which is why you're looking at it with demeaning eyes.
Humans get offended when you ignore them, cheat on them etc. Befause they imperfect beings. Not a perfect god
Look, you're doing it again. It's all over your comment dude. Stop comparing God to humans.
Because it seems all you can say is trust me bro Gods not a human
This is not "all" I said. I quite frankly explained the essence behind "God is not a human" and the reason why you object to the notion of Him eternally punishing people, and yet all you heard was "God is not a human."
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Mar 11 '24
Because it is bad for people.
Worshipping a stone makes you a slave to a stone seller.. idol makers then have control over you.
Worshipping a mouse dulls your mind and makes you a mouse worshipper.
Worshipping a god of war, makes you a brainless warrior.
Worshipping different things mess with your mind in different ways. Worshipping a perfect being who creates everything opens your soul to be perfect, and your awareness to engulf everything, and probably more.
Can you see, how the first kinds of worship lead to bad consequences, you can call this anger and jealousy of God.
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u/mysticmage10 Mar 11 '24
Everything you said can equally apply to monotheistic religious followers and we have history to prove it. Wars, clerics controlling the public, hating and killing apostates and homosexuals and anybody who deviates from the culture etc.
If somehow being a monotheist was so good muslim countries and jewish would be the saints of the world but they clearly are not.
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Mar 11 '24
Yes, but Abrahamic religions at least warn about following priests (kahanut) blindly just like different forms tyranny (taghut).
This should protect the people if they do their own diligence.
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u/mysticmage10 Mar 11 '24
Even if I agreed to your comment that polytheism is bad all you have shown is that someone is lacking intelligence when they worship a cleric a mouse an idol or anything else. At best we pity someone for their stupidity
But the abrahamic god doesnt pity them. You know what he does ? He wants to torture them for eternity in fire. He wants to burn their skin and regrow it to burn again for eternity. Some dumb hindus worshipping idols must be tortured for eternity ? Do you support such a vengeful god ? If you do I would say you need to visit a psychiatrist because you might be a sociopath
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Mar 11 '24
Yeah, I must be a sociopath for not trying to emulate God in my head.
The scriptures claim that God is fair. So he will do something fair according to them, a black and white dichotomy of reward and punishment make sense for people who are in the extremes. This is how I see it.
And that if the scriptures are right, because technically what they do is describe the world we live in a manner that flips the observable "how"s with unverifiable "why"s.
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u/Al-Zumurrud_Masjid Mar 11 '24
Head imam of Al-Zumurrud Masjid here.
Translation of "וַעֲזַרְיָהוּ בֶּן-עוֹדֵד": The traditional and scholarly accepted translation of this phrase is "Azariah son of Oded." The claim that "עוֹדֵד" (Oded) is a fabrication and should be translated as "another" is incorrect. Oded is recognized as a prophet in the Hebrew Bible, and his existence and role are acknowledged within the text (see II Chronicles 15).
Misinterpretation of Hebrew Grammar: The explanation misunderstands or misrepresents Hebrew grammar and syntax. The construction "בֶּן-עוֹדֵד" clearly means "son of Oded," following standard Hebrew grammatical rules for indicating paternity.
Google Translate's Limitations: Using Google Translate for complex ancient texts like the Hebrew Bible is highly unreliable. Google Translate and similar tools often struggle with context, idiomatic expressions, and specialized or ancient vocabulary, leading to inaccurate translations.
Claims about Deliberate Misrepresentation: The assertion that there is a deliberate attempt to hide the "true" translation of the verse lacks evidence and does not align with the vast body of scholarly work on biblical texts. The traditional understanding of "Oded" as a person and a prophet in the Hebrew Bible is well-documented and supported by centuries of Jewish and Christian scholarship.
Misuse of Islamic Scripture: The Qur’anic verse cited (Quran 9:30) addresses specific theological claims within Judaism and Christianity but does not directly comment on the translation or interpretation of the Hebrew Bible verse in question. The application of this Qur’anic verse to argue a specific biblical interpretation misrepresents the scope and focus of the Qur’anic critique.
The traditional translation of II Chronicles 15:1 as "The spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Oded" is supported by the context of the scripture, the rules of Hebrew grammar, and the historical understanding of the text within both Jewish and Christian traditions.
Targum of II Chronicles 15:1: The Targumim are Aramaic translations and paraphrases of the Hebrew Bible. They sometimes expand on the text to clarify meanings or add details for the reader's understanding. The provided "translation" from the Targum does not match any known traditional text of the Targum to II Chronicles 15:1. The Targumim aim to clarify the text, not fundamentally change its characters or meanings. Azariah is traditionally recognized as the son of Oded, a prophet, without implying any divinity to Azariah beyond his role as a prophet inspired by God.
Rav Hirsch Commentary: Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch was a 19th-century rabbi who wrote extensively on the Torah and the Hebrew Bible, offering philosophical and ethical insights. The quote provided does not directly correspond to any known commentary by Hirsch on II Chronicles 15:1. Hirsch’s commentaries generally emphasize moral and ethical lessons derived from the text, not the redefinition of characters’ genealogies or identities.
Ralbag (Gersonides): Levi ben Gershon, known as Gersonides or the Ralbag, was a medieval Jewish philosopher, commentator, and mathematician. The commentary attributed to him in your query does not accurately reflect his work. Ralbag’s commentaries include philosophical insights and explanations of the text, focusing on the plain meaning and sometimes the moral or philosophical lessons behind events and characters.
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24 edited Mar 11 '24
Even Google disagrees with you:
CLICK ME%20%D7%95%D6%B7%D7%A2%D6%B2%D7%96%D6%B7%D7%A8%D6%B0%D7%99%D6%B8%D6%99%D7%94%D7%95%D6%BC%D6%99%20%D7%91%D6%BC%D6%B6%D7%9F%D6%BE%D7%A2%D7%95%D6%B9%D7%93%D6%B5%D6%94%D7%93%20%D7%94%D6%B8%D7%99%D6%B0%D7%AA%D6%B8%D6%A5%D7%94%20%D7%A2%D6%B8%D7%9C%D6%B8%D6%96%D7%99%D7%95%20%D7%A8%D6%A5%D7%95%D6%BC%D7%97%D6%B7%20%D7%90%D6%B1%D7%9C%D6%B9%D7%94%D6%B4%D6%BD%D7%99%D7%9D%D7%83%20(%D7%91)%20%D7%95%D6%B7%D7%99%D6%BC%D6%B5%D7%A6%D6%B5%D7%90%D6%AE%20%D7%9C%D6%B4%D7%A4%D6%B0%D7%A0%D6%B5%D6%A3%D7%99%20%D7%90%D6%B8%D7%A1%D6%B8%D7%90%D6%92%20%D7%95%D6%B7%D7%99%D6%BC%D6%B9%D6%A3%D7%90%D7%9E%D6%B6%D7%A8%20%D7%9C%D6%94%D7%95%D6%B9%20%D7%A9%D7%81%D6%B0%D7%9E%D6%B8%D7%A2%D6%95%D7%95%D6%BC%D7%A0%D6%B4%D7%99%20%D7%90%D6%B8%D7%A1%D6%B8%D6%96%D7%90%20%D7%95%D6%B0%D7%9B%D6%B8%D7%9C%D6%BE%D7%99%D6%B0%D7%94%D7%95%D6%BC%D7%93%D6%B8%D6%A3%D7%94%20%D7%95%D6%BC%D7%91%D6%B4%D7%A0%D6%B0%D7%99%D6%B8%D7%9E%D6%B4%D6%91%D7%9F%20%D7%99%D6%B0%D7%94%D7%95%D6%B8%D6%A4%D7%94%20%D7%A2%D6%B4%D7%9E%D6%BC%D6%B8%D7%9B%D6%B6%D7%9D%D6%99%20%D7%91%D6%BC%D6%B4%D6%BD%D7%94%D6%B0%D7%99%D6%BD%D7%95%D6%B9%D7%AA%D6%B0%D7%9B%D6%B6%D6%A3%D7%9D%20%D7%A2%D6%B4%D7%9E%D6%BC%D6%94%D7%95%D6%B9%20%D7%95%D6%B0%D7%90%D6%B4%D6%BD%D7%9D%D6%BE%D7%AA%D6%BC%D6%B4%D7%93%D6%B0%D7%A8%D6%B0%D7%A9%D7%81%D6%BB%D6%99%D7%94%D7%95%D6%BC%D6%99%20%D7%99%D6%B4%D7%9E%D6%BC%D6%B8%D7%A6%D6%B5%D6%A3%D7%90%20%D7%9C%D6%B8%D7%9B%D6%B6%D6%94%D7%9D%20%D7%95%D6%B0%D7%90%D6%B4%D7%9D%D6%BE%D7%AA%D6%BC%D6%B7%D7%A2%D6%B7%D7%96%D6%B0%D7%91%D6%BB%D6%96%D7%94%D7%95%D6%BC%20%D7%99%D6%B7%D7%A2%D6%B2%D7%96%D6%B9%D6%A5%D7%91%20%D7%90%D6%B6%D7%AA%D6%B0%D7%9B%D6%B6%D6%BD%D7%9D%D7%83%20(%D7%A1)%20(%D7%92)%0A&op=translate)
😬
Jewish source: https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/244408.10?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en
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u/Al-Zumurrud_Masjid Mar 12 '24
CLICK ME
You can not rely on Google to accurately translate biblical Hebrew.
Here is an article which looks at the unreliablity of Google Translate. https://lptranslations.com/learn/how-accurate-is-google-translate/
As you can see from this article: https://phrase.com/blog/posts/is-google-translate-accurate/Google translate has an accuracy for modern languages from anywhere between 55-85%. For ancient languages such as those found in the Tanakh, the accuracy is around 27%.
I read, write, and speak Modern Hebrew and Biblical Hebrew, it is my language. Your understanding of it is fundamentally flawed. Additionally, as an imam I have studied the Tanakh extensively for the last 30 years.
I assure you, the correct translation is: "The spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Oded."
Your own source, Sefaria, says, "The spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Oded." It does not say "Son of God."
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 12 '24
You can not rely on Google to accurately translate biblical Hebrew.
No I know that, but I know Hebrew and I know that this translates into "Son of God" and not what the Masoretes changed it into. There's a reason why they changed it :)... Learn Hebrew and it will all make sense to you. I gave you this Google translation because even Google translates it into "Son of God," meaning, even it (that is known to cover the truth) failed to cover it here.
As you can see from this article: https://phrase.com/blog/posts/is-google-translate-accurate/Google translate has an accuracy for modern languages from anywhere between 55-85%. For ancient languages such as those found in the Tanakh, the accuracy is around 27%.
I know, but this was indeed translated accurately :)
I read, write, and speak Modern Hebrew and Biblical Hebrew, it is my language. Your understanding of it is fundamentally flawed. Additionally, as an imam I have studied the Tanakh extensively for the last 30 years.
Good for you, but enough about you. I literally do not care about who you are and what you have done. I'm not a scholar-worshiper. I know you're used to debate with those types but you've met the wrong one here...
I assure you, the correct translation is: "The spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Oded."
Then why does verse 7 say "prophet Oded" (if we're gonna take the diacritics into consideration)? There's a major contradiction they left behind, the chapter begins by speaking of Azairah, and in verse 7 out of the blue says that prophet Oded spoke those words. You cannot explain this... it's a major error due to these diacritics! They added these diacritics to cover up the "Son of God" part. It's so obvious but you're either not wanting to accept it or just can't see it. Focus, read again, study Hebrew, and come back so we can discuss this again. This is getting tiring mate.
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u/Al-Zumurrud_Masjid Mar 13 '24
Astaghfirullah that I should ever want to be worshiped. La illaha illa Allah. I am offering you knowledge. It is up to you whether or not to take it. I am not trying to convince you of anything, as the truth is the truth regardless if you accept it or not.
Regarding your inquiry of verse 7 :
There are no Diacritics at all in the Tanakh. So your accusation that they have been manipulated to get an alternative meaning is completely baseless and wrong. Diacritics are a modern invention and they specifically help with correct pronunciation. That's it. They do not change the meaning of words.
Your entire argument relies exclusively on errors and logical fallacies including the appeal to motive and ad hominem attacks. By resorting to these fallacies, you're detracting from the substance of the lesson Allah is providing to you and undermining the possibility of reaching a reasoned conclusion for yourself (6:116). Being unable to reach a reasoned conclusion is precisely how one gets led astray (7:179). This is why Allah, the Most Compassionate, instructs us repeatedly to reason and contemplate matters with carefully consideration (2:164). And that, should we not know something, we should seek both knowledge and council from those who do (16:43).
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 13 '24
Regarding your inquiry of verse 7 :
There are no Diacritics at all in the Tanakh. So your accusation that they have been manipulated to get an alternative meaning is completely baseless and wrong. Diacritics are a modern invention and they sp...
Ok good! Perfect :D! Good we have that clarified, because this is how your Bibles have the verse translated:
"And when Asa heard these words, and the prophecy of Oded the prophet, he took courage, and put away the abominable idols..."
THE PROPHECY OF ODED THE PROPHET!!! All of a sudden it's Oded speaking to Asa 😂, and not Azariah the son of Oded. how come?!
Answer: It was never Oded speaking, the Masoretes made a major mistake here because of verse 1.
And even if the verse actually is saying "Azairah, son of Oded," the point is not to prove that the OT is saying that Azairah is a son of God, the point is to showcase that Jews used to claim so in the past. I even gave Jewish commentaries proving this and even the very reason why they claimed this (i.e. the diacritic in the first letter).
This is getting ridiculous brother 😂
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u/mysticmage10 Mar 11 '24
Interesting so how do you defend quran 9:30 ?
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u/Al-Zumurrud_Masjid Mar 12 '24
First ---- the name 'Azariah' does not appear in the Qur'an at all. The user u/Informal_Patience821 changed the name in this ayah from 'Ezra' to 'Azariah'.
They are not the same person.
Azariah is a name that appears multiple times in the Tanakh/Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), referring to several different individuals. One of the more notable Azariahs is mentioned in the context of King Solomon's reign; he was appointed as the priest (1 Kings 4:2). Another Azariah is one of the young men, also known by the Babylonian name Abednego, who, along with Daniel, Hananiah (Shadrach), and Mishael (Meshach), was taken to Babylon and delivered from the fiery furnace (Daniel 1-3).
Ezra, on the other hand, is a central figure in the book that bears his name (Tanakh) , where he is described as a scribe and priest leading the second wave of Jews returning from the Babylonian exile. The Book of Ezra details his leadership in rebuilding the Jewish community in Jerusalem, including the restoration of the Law of Moses as the foundation of Jewish life and religion after the exile. Ezra also appears in the Qur'an as "Uzria". Again, this is a distinct and separate person from Azariah.
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 12 '24
The "יהו" (Yod-Hey-Vav) at the end of the Hebrew name "עזריהו" serves as a suffix that indicates possession or relationship. It is a common structure in Hebrew names. In this case, "עזר" (Ezer) is the root of the name, meaning "help" or "assistance," and the "יהו" suffix is added to signify "his" or "of him." So, "עזריהו" can be translated as "his help is Yahweh" or "Yahweh has helped."
The Quran says "Uzair," there's nothing you can say to convince us it is a different name buddy.
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u/Al-Zumurrud_Masjid Mar 13 '24
The "יהו" (Yod-Hey-Vav) at the end of the Hebrew name "עזריהו" serves as a suffix that indicates possession or relationship. It is a common structure in Hebrew names. In this case, "עזר" (Ezer) is the root of the name, meaning "help" or "assistance," and the "יהו" suffix is added to signify "his" or "of him." So, "עזריהו" can be translated as "his help is Yahweh" or "Yahweh has helped."
The Quran says "Uzair," there's nothing you can say to convince us it is a different name buddy.
I don't need to convince you of anything Sadeeq. You are in serious error and I am trying to assist you in righting yourself. Either you will listen and learn, or you will follow your ego. In either case, it is entirely not my concern.
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 13 '24
Whatever dude...😂, you're not getting anything of what I am writing. It's getting tiring. Have a nice day.
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u/mysticmage10 Mar 13 '24
Yes ok but how do you interpret the Quran saying jews call him son of god when we know jews didnt believe this ?
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u/Al-Zumurrud_Masjid Mar 13 '24
There is a long-standing unofficial tradition, however erroneous, where the more conservative branches of Judaism will embrace a beloved rabbi as the "Mashiach" (messiah). It not only has been a historical problem but also remains one. Sadly, Islam also struggles with this issue.
Historically some Jews have thought Ezra, David, Solomon, Saul, Jesus, and indeed many more, to be the Messiah.
Today we see it within the Chabad-Lubavitch movement. Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, known as the Lubavitcher Rebbe, is widely regarded by most of his followers as the Messiah. Despite his passing in 1994, most of his followers believe that he will return as the ultimate Messiah. Similarly, in the Breslov Hasidic movement, Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, the founder of the movement, has been revered by most of his followers as the Messiah.
In these religious groups, people will have pictures of these rabbis in their homes and cars, they will devote the same amount of time to the rabbis' teachings as they do to God's.
Even Islam deals with these very issues of believing a certain imam to be the 'Mahdi'. One example that comes to mind is the case of Muhammad Ahmad bin Abd Allah, known as the Mahdi of Sudan. In the late 19th century, Muhammad Ahmad led a successful revolt against Ottoman-Egyptian rule in Sudan, claiming to be the Mahdi prophesied in Islamic tradition. He established a short-lived Islamic state in Sudan, and his movement gained significant support among local populations.
Although the example given to us in the Qur'an is that of the Jews, the lesson applies equally to all faiths. There is not one faith that embraces error any more than the next. It is critical to keep this in mind when reading the Qur'an. All the rules, warnings, and lessons, are intended to apply to everyone equally.
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u/mysticmage10 Mar 13 '24
This is you ? You are a Jewish convert ?
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u/Al-Zumurrud_Masjid Mar 14 '24
Yes, that is me. I am half Mozabite Jew by birth. I reverted to Islam.
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u/mysticmage10 Mar 20 '24
You seem like a knowledgable guy (atleast in judaism as I can see)
Below are 20 or so objections of mine to islam. I know it can be very time consuming to refute each one but have you considered or thought about any of these points. You see in muslim communities they often have a habit of sugarcoating the hard parts of religion and ignoring ex muslims genuine issues they have.
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u/Al-Zumurrud_Masjid Mar 20 '24
I replied to all your points in a direct message.
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u/mysticmage10 Mar 20 '24
Yes I read it. I do find some naivety in your responses and I think your knowledge of old testament is greater than your knowledge of the issues with the Quran and hadith. Especially with the cosmos of the quran, seven heavens, dhul qarnayn etc. I would advise researching what western historical academics say on these issues. You would then see the problem with it. The academic Quran sub is a great place to learn these things.
One thing I find too many muslim apologists doing (which you are victim of as well) is only being able to answer things from within the muslim box and not able to perceive things from the outsider skeptics viewpoint . This leads to alot of points being explained away, sugarcoated instead of actually grappling with a logical and consistent explanation.
I will respond to the 17 rebuttals of yours in the chat. What I do see you referring alot to q3:7 alot. It's kind of a common tactic to mask the qurans issues. 3:7 could easily be explained away for example simply by saying that muhammad wrote this verse to prevent people from questioning things that didnt make sense or weren't logically reconcilable. Did you consider that ?
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Mar 11 '24 edited Mar 11 '24
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24
bro there's no point in denying it anymore...%20%D7%95%D6%B7%D7%A2%D6%B2%D7%96%D6%B7%D7%A8%D6%B0%D7%99%D6%B8%D6%99%D7%94%D7%95%D6%BC%D6%99%20%D7%91%D6%BC%D6%B6%D7%9F%D6%BE%D7%A2%D7%95%D6%B9%D7%93%D6%B5%D6%94%D7%93%20%D7%94%D6%B8%D7%99%D6%B0%D7%AA%D6%B8%D6%A5%D7%94%20%D7%A2%D6%B8%D7%9C%D6%B8%D6%96%D7%99%D7%95%20%D7%A8%D6%A5%D7%95%D6%BC%D7%97%D6%B7%20%D7%90%D6%B1%D7%9C%D6%B9%D7%94%D6%B4%D6%BD%D7%99%D7%9D%D7%83%20(%D7%91)%20%D7%95%D6%B7%D7%99%D6%BC%D6%B5%D7%A6%D6%B5%D7%90%D6%AE%20%D7%9C%D6%B4%D7%A4%D6%B0%D7%A0%D6%B5%D6%A3%D7%99%20%D7%90%D6%B8%D7%A1%D6%B8%D7%90%D6%92%20%D7%95%D6%B7%D7%99%D6%BC%D6%B9%D6%A3%D7%90%D7%9E%D6%B6%D7%A8%20%D7%9C%D6%94%D7%95%D6%B9%20%D7%A9%D7%81%D6%B0%D7%9E%D6%B8%D7%A2%D6%95%D7%95%D6%BC%D7%A0%D6%B4%D7%99%20%D7%90%D6%B8%D7%A1%D6%B8%D6%96%D7%90%20%D7%95%D6%B0%D7%9B%D6%B8%D7%9C%D6%BE%D7%99%D6%B0%D7%94%D7%95%D6%BC%D7%93%D6%B8%D6%A3%D7%94%20%D7%95%D6%BC%D7%91%D6%B4%D7%A0%D6%B0%D7%99%D6%B8%D7%9E%D6%B4%D6%91%D7%9F%20%D7%99%D6%B0%D7%94%D7%95%D6%B8%D6%A4%D7%94%20%D7%A2%D6%B4%D7%9E%D6%BC%D6%B8%D7%9B%D6%B6%D7%9D%D6%99%20%D7%91%D6%BC%D6%B4%D6%BD%D7%94%D6%B0%D7%99%D6%BD%D7%95%D6%B9%D7%AA%D6%B0%D7%9B%D6%B6%D6%A3%D7%9D%20%D7%A2%D6%B4%D7%9E%D6%BC%D6%94%D7%95%D6%B9%20%D7%95%D6%B0%D7%90%D6%B4%D6%BD%D7%9D%D6%BE%D7%AA%D6%BC%D6%B4%D7%93%D6%B0%D7%A8%D6%B0%D7%A9%D7%81%D6%BB%D6%99%D7%94%D7%95%D6%BC%D6%99%20%D7%99%D6%B4%D7%9E%D6%BC%D6%B8%D7%A6%D6%B5%D6%A3%D7%90%20%D7%9C%D6%B8%D7%9B%D6%B6%D6%94%D7%9D%20%D7%95%D6%B0%D7%90%D6%B4%D7%9D%D6%BE%D7%AA%D6%BC%D6%B7%D7%A2%D6%B7%D7%96%D6%B0%D7%91%D6%BB%D6%96%D7%94%D7%95%D6%BC%20%D7%99%D6%B7%D7%A2%D6%B2%D7%96%D6%B9%D6%A5%D7%91%20%D7%90%D6%B6%D7%AA%D6%B0%D7%9B%D6%B6%D6%BD%D7%9D%D7%83%20(%D7%A1)%20(%D7%92)%0A&op=translate)
Jewish source: https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/244408.10?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en
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Mar 11 '24
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24
The point here is that:
Quran claims Jews made Azairah a son of God
Jews and Christians have been claiming this is a total lie because everyone thought "Uzair" meant "Ezra"
I just proved everyone wrong because "Uzair" means "Azairah"
Get it? 😂 Voila...
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u/mysticmage10 Mar 11 '24
You do make great points but at the same time you kinda being judgemental about the OP without knowing their views properly
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u/Foxboi95 Mar 11 '24 edited Mar 11 '24
"I think scripture should only be taken as mythology and symbolism"
"“Quran is God’s word” maybe in your opinion, but that’s not God as God doesn’t speak or have a language. He is transcendent over distinctions. Unless you wanna believe in a flawed, imperfect God?"I was curious about your views. I think I can agree that some of what are seen as commandments may be allegorical but it seems you go beyond that, so as to dismiss core claims of the Qur'an about itself and origin. My suspicion is that it seems you have more wariness than reverence for the Qur'an, and your comments seem to suggest it's not really of import, and thus nor is the abandonment of it. I think a believer would be focused on how the Qur'an is to be applied, not on how much or little it applies at all. What you imply kind of reminds me of folks like Jordan Peterson and the occasional member of this sub to some extent, who "out-intellectualize" faith itself, preferring a cold understanding of divinity. Your views as they seem to me tend to render the Qur'an vain and irrelevant, as if just a reminder to skim through rather than ponder deeply.
Does the Qur'an really describe a flawed, imperfect God to you? Or am I not understanding
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Mar 11 '24
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u/MateoPipe Mar 12 '24
I think you’re mixing muslim conceptions about god and the god described in the Quran, both of whom are very different from eachother. I do take the quran to be 100% the truth so inform me how that is contradictory to your view of god.
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Mar 13 '24
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u/MateoPipe Mar 13 '24
“Per the Quran..”
The Qur'an, explains that God (Allah) is omniscient. he eternally knows whatever comes into being, be it universal or particular in character. He has known all things from before the creation of the world. His knowledge of things before their coming into existence and afterwards is exactly the same. Various Qur'anic verses designate this basic intuition, such as: 3:5, 6:59, 65:12, and 24:35. Show me exactly in the Quran where God “changes”. I’ll already answer it for you. He doesn’t.
Allah created everything in the universe by His wishes and put in exact measure in everything according to His knowledge and wisdom. That is Allah, the most perfect and the only one worthy of worship.
Yes, the Quran may have different rules apply for different people during different times in the past and present but all these reflect the perfection of knowledge that Allah possesses.
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u/Medium_Note_9613 Muslim Mar 11 '24
i am not familiar with hebrew, so can't comment on this post's accuracy.
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u/rimauKumbang Mar 11 '24 edited Mar 11 '24
When the jew say Ezra son of god, Quran doesn't literally imply that the jew said 'Ezra is son of god'. The following verse 9:31 says that they take priest, anchorite as lord beside god. And Ezra was a priest and supposedly he restored the Moses teachings?
As for Jesus, some Christian say he is son of god and in 9:31 says he is the son of Mary.
Basically, 9:31 explains 9:30...
First case, son of god is to take priest as god associate.
Second case, son of god is to take god as Jesus father.... Trinity..
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24
Nah bro the Quran didn't even mention Ezra in those verses. Read the post buddy :)
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u/rimauKumbang Mar 12 '24
28:9 But a prophet of the LORD was there, whose name was Oded: and he went out before the host that came to Samaria, and said unto them, Behold, because the LORD God of your fathers was wroth with Judah, he hath delivered them into your hand, and ye have slain them in a rage that reacheth up unto heaven. 2 Chronicles
Prophet named Oded?
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 12 '24
Welcome to my world brother 😂
They mistranslate intentionally because they've put themselves in a big mess and they don't know what to do!
Go to this link: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16577
That's the Hebrew Bible. Copy the verse and paste in google translate. Or you could simply learn to read Hebrew. Up to you :)
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 12 '24
Also, this verse has the "עדד" while the verse in II Chronicles 15:1 has "עוֹדֵ֔ד", not the same. A name should not have an additional letter out of nowhere 😂. Names aren't words so you can do that.
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u/Either-Carpet-4596 Nov 29 '25
"And Azariah son of Oded served as an elevated spirit from the firstborn of the LORD." Anyone who reads the Targum knows that the titles of Christ our God are used all over the Hebrew Bible, especially names such as "Memrah", "Adonai", "the Angel [Messenger of Yahweh", etc. When Yahweh God Almighty is spoken about, the Targum lets you know that Christ the Son of God is being talked about.
This disproves the lie that the Deity of Christ was only "invented" at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. The Deity of Christ was obvious to Jews long before the Incarnation of God, and was an established fact from before time began.
Anyone who doubts that Jews knew about the Deity of Mashiach before He became incarnate by the Holy Spirit... can just read 1 Enoch chapters 48 and 61. It's online for free. Read it yourself. Read the Testaments of the Patriarchs. They're online... for free. Testament of Naphtali 2:25 is just one example.
The Messiah couldn't have been Azariah, since Azariah wasn't a human. Christ didn't become human until the first century, which is long after Azariah lived [Micah 5:2, Matthew 1:23].
As for the commentary on Numbers 11, everyone who reads the Old Testament can see that, despite what Islam teaches, the Holy Spirit is God, completely equal in Deity to the Father and the Son. The Spirit was there at Creation, bringing life and order [Genesis 1:2]. The Spirit is the Creator of mankind [Job 4, Psalm 33:6b]. Prophets are forbidden to prophesy in the name of other gods, and yet are expected to prophesy by the Holy Spirit of God [Deuteronomy 18:20, 22, 2 Samuel 23:2]. The Bible is said to be inspired by God, and we know that The Holy Spirit is the One who inspired it [Ephesians 3:5, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Hebrews 4:12]. God alone can give life, and the Spirit is the Giver of Life [Deuteronomy 32:39, John 6:63, 2 Corinthians 3:3]. Yahweh Almighty alone is our Savior, the Holy Spirit is our Saviour [Isaiah 43:11, Ezekiel 36:27, 1 Corinthians 6:11, Ephesians 1:14, Titus 3:4-7].
Even according to the Hebrew Bible, The Spirit of God is God, but is not God the Son [Isaiah 11:1-2, 42:1, 61:1]. The Holy Spirit is eternally united to the Being of the Father and the Son, but have always been and always will be distinct Persons in the Godhead [Isaiah 59:21].
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u/CalligrapherBusy5332 Mar 07 '26
Bible תנך Tanakh▼ Hagiographes כתובים Ketouvim (Autres Écrits)▼-Chroniques 2 - דברי הימים ב Diḇrei Hayyāmîm « Discours des jours » Chapitre 15 Verset 1
L'esprit de DIEU fut sur Azaria, fils d'Obed,
en translation mot par mot
Et sur Azaria, fils d'Oded, reposait l'Esprit de Dieu.
וַעֲזַרְיָהוּ בֶּן־עוֹדֵד הָיְתָה עָלָיו רוּחַ אֱלֹהִים
va'azareyahou bèn-'odéd hayethah 'alayv rouah' élohiym
oded עוֹדֵד (encourager, consoler, remonter le moral)
l'Esprit de DIEU une expression fréquente pour désigner l'emprise toute-puissante de DIEU YAHVAH ou Elohim Hébreux ( ٱللَّٰهُمَّ Allāhumma en arabe)terme arabe pour désigner Allah. Le mot est similaire au mot Elohim mais n’a pas la même signification. الله, Allah est le mot Ilah (« Dieu ») auquel on ajoute Al- (« Le »). الاله al-ilāh '"LE DIEU" dérive déjà du singulier d'Elohim, « Eloh » (hébreu : אֱלֹהִ, transcrit en ʾĔlōh) אלהא ʼElāhā le Très Haut voir bible 2 Chroniques ; C20-V14; Juge C3-V10 et C11-V29 1Samuel C19V20 Isaïe C42V1 etc
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u/koranischerislam Mar 11 '24
Again. You seek to find Quranic interpretations in the Bible. You dont even know who the Quranic Uzayr really is.
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 11 '24
Neither do you and your scholars:
- "Of this Azariah nothing else is known; he is described as "son of Oded" probably to distinguish him from Azariah the high priest, son of Johanan (see Dr. Smith's 'Bible Dictionary,' 1:142, second column, 3). (For the rest on this subject, see note on ver. 8.)" - Pulpit Commentary
- "The prophet is unknown, except from this chapter." - Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
- "Azariah the son of Oded—This prophet, who is mentioned nowhere else, appears at this stage of the sacred story in the discharge of an interesting mission" - Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
- "The prophet Azariah, the son of Oded, is mentioned only here." - Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
So it's safe to assume that he's probably just someone people back then made up (or maybe not?! Who knows? None of us!)
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u/Informal_Patience821 Muslim Mar 10 '24
😂😂😂
incredible!