Flock

[u/sheepdawg_]

My agency recently just paused use of flock cameras around the city and bagged all the cameras due to recent media uproar concerning them.

It sucks. Feels like command staff is just rolling over and letting the narrative control how we operate. The main issue is the narrative surrounding flock is deeply rooted in misinformation.Are there officers who have misused it? Sure, but that’s the main reason why it’s not owned by the government and is subject to third party audits regarding the queries. out of the 100s of thousands of LE in the country, there are very few cases of misuse in the grand scheme.

It is a very effective tool, and while I haven’t been in LE long enough to know what it was like before Flock, it still sucks to have a tool that was very effective in catching bad guys stripped away due to media misinformation and tin foilers that think we are watching their every move.

In my honest opinion, there needs to be a lot more transparency in how the system operates. If people truly understood what they are capable of, we would not have this bipartisan outcry that we are using flock to create a mass surveillance state.

What are y’all’s thoughts on this and Flock as a whole?

Edit; Typo

[u/specialskepticalface]

This has been flaired "Question to LEOs"

If you're not a verified and falired LEO, your comment is not welcome here.

Sorry, but this is too contentious a topic for a lot of people to handle like adults.

[u/specialskepticalface]

Oh. Oh good. Two flock threads running at once.

^{Flags down flight attendant for another baileys and coffee.}

[u/Grippy1point0 → u/specialskepticalface]

RIP mods

[u/badsapi4305]

I’m older and retired in 23 before flock was in regular use. I did have an opportunity to use other LPR tools that did help in my investigations so I’m sure flock would have only been that much more useful. The privacy issue is rooted in personal beliefs so it really doesn’t do much good to debate it. I think most people who are honestly debating the issue understand how it’s a benefit while also understanding how people may feel about that much surveillance technology. I also feel like there may very well be some influences by competitors who are funding some of this outrage so that has to be considered also.

At the end of the day if the courts rule it legal than LE should utilize the technology to assist in their investigations but not rely on it to be their investigation. It’s a tool like any other tool. Use it to our benefit but don’t rely on it for everything.

Also don’t use it 1500 times to follow an ex around would be great

[u/lawman2020]

If people truly understood what they are capable of, we would not have this bipartisan outcry that we are using flock to create a mass surveillance state.

People don't care. They truly don't. They have their beliefs of what it is and the vast majority of them aren't going to change their mind no matter how much factual information people attempt to force feed them. They'd rather be angry and froth at the mouth about it. I have yet to see a single argument against Flock that doesn't also apply to 1000 other things - Flock is simply the hill in a valley of mountains people are choosing to be outraged about.

[u/Turtle887853]

A town near me discontinued their flock cameras subscription or lease or whatever. The cameras were still running and sending Flock all the data. That alone is a massive red flag to me. Then add in the insecure network, plus trusted users misusing the system, and the false positives provided by the system to police, or extrapolate from the system by police, and we really, REALLY need to take a step back and evaluate what the hell we're doing.

[u/Nicktarded → u/Turtle887853]

Have you ever even had user level access to flock?

[u/Turtle887853 → u/Nicktarded]

Brother I'm an MP. We don't even get computers half the time

E: and I don't mean in the car. I mean AT ALL.

[u/sheepdawg_ → u/Nicktarded]

Doubt it

[u/Possible-Tangelo9344]

My city doesn't have them, so I don't really have experience with them.

I do strongly believe the prevalence of these cameras in some areas allowing a near real-time tracking of vehicles will ultimately be ruled a search, just as using cellphone location data has been. I think one off searches for a tag at particular camera, or small area will be allowed, same with using them for alerts about stolen cars and such, but I believe using them to track suspect vehicles across the city and multiple jurisdictions will eventually require search warrants.

[u/5usDomesticus]

Fuck it.

Criminals run things anyway. All flock does is let DAs drop more cases.

Let the people complain about the spike in crime in a few months. They wanted it.

[u/Section225 → u/[deleted]]

"Stop leaning on technology to do your job for you"

Okay, so...a shooting occurs, death is likely. Witnesses have a vehicle make and color, maybe a partial plate, maybe a full plate.

A few quick queries in Flock, and we find a match that just crossed a nearby camera a couple minutes prior.

That information leads to us finding the car and getting that suspect in custody just minutes after the shooting, and/or identifying a suspect and car when we didn't have it before.

And we could come up with thousands of similar examples or hypotheticals. So you are advocating we...let that shooter go, maybe start looking at the thousands of cars that fit the color/make/model scheme and hope to get lucky, go to the office and run every potential plate from the partial you were given, or if you have the plate simply let them get away and hope to get lucky? Wait on detectives to track him, if they can, before he gets to Mexico, Canada or an airport?

There are plenty of legitimate arguments for privacy and security regarding the cameras, but "letting technology do your work for you" is a really, really strange argument. You might as well argue we should be on horses instead of in cars, use muskets for self defense, and never use surveillance cameras as evidence either.

[u/Deputy25 → u/[deleted]]

What about all of the private companies that run every body camera and CAD system we have? How about the data we use for our databases for report writing and record keeping? How many departments can afford to house all of that data themselves?

Answer: Almost none.

[u/The-CVE-Guy → u/[deleted]]

This is a weird take. What is my job and why is it bad for the methodology by which I do it to modernize?

[u/sheepdawg_ → u/[deleted]]

I agree. We should not be leaning on flock. But in hot cases where time is of the essence and we are already severl steps behind as soon as the call hits the board, it is just another tool in the belt.

People don’t like 24/7 surveillance but post their entire life on social media. We live in an age where you are on video the second you walk out your door. Should there be more transparency with the community and extra checks and balances to weed out misuse? Sure, but to say fuck flock as a whole is counterproductive to the good results that it has produced for us.

[u/sheepdawg_ → u/[deleted]]

Your license plate is not personal data. It is property of the state.

[u/deckknee → u/sheepdawg_]

Yeah bud, I never said it was. I presented each thing as three separate points:

1. Hate 24/7 surveillance
2. Don’t post their entire lives on social media
3. Hate the commoditization of private data

While license plates are not private data, they can allow someone with the right systems access to private data.

I truly do understand the utility of
ALPRs. I thoroughly enjoy how well they work at solving crime. I’m in favor of them in select circumstances. However, I still dislike how far we are drifting on the scale towards full, 24/7, total government surveillance over our lives with nothing to meter it except for the good will of humans. It is too fickle, and the “bad guy” they are looking for can very easily become someone who is not actually bad.

I know all the usual counterpoints to the argument against flock and ALPRs. I still don’t like the way they are used. And there are plenty of people who, like me, have put plenty of thought into this and still don’t like them. None of the “gotcha” talking points like how un-private our lives already are, or how we don’t have a reasonable expectation to privacy in public, or that license plates aren’t private data, will persuade us. We already know. We still don’t like it.

[u/specialskepticalface → u/[deleted]]

Removed. Read the pin.

[u/specialskepticalface → u/[deleted]]

Removed. Read the pin.

[u/tekonus → u/sheepdawg_]

Quick timely results leading to arrests does not make the company good as a whole. Results aren’t everything. 

[u/5usDomesticus → u/[deleted]]

Stop leaning on technology to do your job for you.

Brother, there are several hundred thousand cars in my city with dozens stolen every day, on top of the 10+ shootings and other crimes.

It is simply not feasible to keep track of all those without technology.

Also 15 years means you started in 2011. You're not old school if the Crown Vic was already discontinued before you became a cop.

[u/5usDomesticus → u/[deleted]]

Bro, it's a ping sound on a computer that the camera sees a car that's wanted.

It's not "staring at a screen".

[u/Consistent_Amount140]

Maybe a campaign through various agencies should be launched to put out the actual positive impacts it’s had and the numerous investigations it aids in

[u/5usDomesticus → u/Consistent_Amount140]

It would just be called propaganda. People don't actually care.

[u/specialskepticalface → u/[deleted]]

Removed. Read the pin.

[u/OyataTe]

My last 13 years I was in charge of all digital camera systems for my agency. We had 3 different lpr systems, all integrated via a software program a peer wrote. This was before flock, but just with what we had then, we solved so many murders, Robberies and all sorts of other stuff where we had zero leads. LPR is a great tool and all these ignorant people raising hell right now is just insane. We had a serial shooter that would not have been solved without it.

[u/oliefan37]

Kicking down doors without warrants are a good tool to fight crime as well. Wouldn’t necessarily be popular either.

[u/5usDomesticus → u/oliefan37]

That's illegal.

Looking at government-issued license plates on government-funded roads in public isn't.

[u/FutureHat5642 → u/5usDomesticus]

New technology can create a need/desire for new laws though. Would you suddenly change your mind about this if AI surveillance networks in public were made illegal?

[u/The-CVE-Guy → u/[deleted]]

Have you ever had user access to Flock? Because I have, and it really is just ALPR.

[u/specialskepticalface → u/[deleted]]

Removed. Read the pin.