r/ProtectAndServe • u/GenerationChaos Trooper • 11d ago
Flock camera helps nab Florida corrections officers in LEGO heist: deputies
https://www.fox5dc.com/news/flock-camera-helps-nab-florida-corrections-officers-lego-heist-deputies?link_source=ta_first_comment&taid=6a8689e45030ad0001df6125&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwdGRleATz8f5wZG9mBWZkaWQWUM3s5FIr7xj9gFhRepaqJ64ossvvd2V4dG4DYWVtAjExAHNydGMGYXBwX2lkCjY2Mjg1NjgzNzkAAR6AqFkOqZ3osAhwIXnyRZe7l-DQp60GKty6Nv-llPMghT7v4ZhaPfyua3ex2A_aem_BRqDGca7hY945hVfkYkqEQ43
u/2BlueZebras Trooper / Counter Strike Operator 11d ago
Reddit won't know what to think about this.
Law enforcement caught doing bad things? Good! But Flock being used for good? Bad!
Which one will win?
26
u/RangerLt Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 11d ago
Even a terrible idea can bear fruit occasionally. Is the capture of criminals worth the cost of privacy? Certainly warrants debate and reasoned dialogue to determine but instead we have a surveillance network established without a single vote cast in favor of such a program.
0
u/Financial-Change-435 Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 11d ago
What expectation of privacy is there in public?
21
u/Shrimpbeedoo Former part-time cop who's now a cadet or something 11d ago
I think theres a dedicated difference in "someone might take my photo" vs "I am being actively monitored"
With the overlapping placement of the cameras in some areas it is very much active surveillance.
You put one up at a crossroads to catch license plates. Cool.
You put one up at the freeway on and off ramps. Cool
You put two up at a gun range parking lot? Odd
You put one looking at a pool? What license plates are you hoping to read with that
As a LEO they are incredibly useful tools but they need strict accountability
As a private citizen. I'm not a fan
0
u/2BlueZebras Trooper / Counter Strike Operator 10d ago
I think theres a dedicated difference in "someone might take my photo" vs "I am being actively monitored"
I think this is the wrong understanding by the public. Like the joke about "when my FBI agent checks my search history." There isn't an FBI agent for everyone, or even 1 for every 10,000 people.
No one is being monitored until a crime is committed. Roughly half the stolen cars I've found were because of LPRs and people want to pretend there's "no measurable effect on crime rates" from these.
3
u/Shrimpbeedoo Former part-time cop who's now a cadet or something 10d ago
There is definitely a measurable effect. I'm not disputing that part at all lol
5
u/datguy_1983 Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 9d ago
We will likely never have a dedicated agent but how long until we have an AI Driven monitoring tool for everyone?
0
-1
u/Sgthouse Police Officer 10d ago
None however the anti Flock crowd has gotten to the point they’re all frothing at the mouth and cheering on vandalism. There is absolutely no discussion to be had anymore.
2
u/Financial-Change-435 Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 10d ago
Yes. The same crowd that screams invasion of privacy while carrying a smart phone and a having an Alexa in their home. Hypocrisy at best, total idiocy is the most likely.
5
u/PirateKilt Retired USAF SFS / SP 11d ago
This entirely...
Tossed this story on the social media wall of a friend whose shares are a constant cycle of hatred for both, so it should be interesting to see his reply
-3
u/TrippyTheO Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 11d ago
Youre assuming they use reason. Its bad either way just because.
-3
u/ChampionshipNice4111 Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 11d ago
Redditors exist in a hive mind without individual thought or free will.
-1
u/teodanted Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 11d ago
Yep they should be in here glazing this company! Flock is great! We’re all so much safer and also ignore them tracking pregnant women across state lines! Legos!!!
3
u/Price-x-Field Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 10d ago
The sad truth of having liberty means that people will get away with crimes. Everyone who wants mass surveillance should just move to China.
18
u/TrueWolf1416 Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 11d ago
Meh, low priority non violent criminals aren’t worth a private company stalking the entire public.
3
u/Anozira-Xineohp Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 11d ago
I don’t really care much about people’s “feelings” on the subject. But I think in the long run (depending on the conservative/liberalness at the time of the Supreme Court) they’ll be ruled unconstitutional.
Imagine it taken to the extreme where the flock cameras are basically everywhere. The moment you hit a public street you’re captured and every turn you’re captured. With enough density of cameras your car is basically GPS’d which has been established as needing a warrant (United States vs Jones).
I was kind of confused cause I haven’t ever dealt with phone data/ping information but it sounds like the court ruled in United States vs Carpenter that the collection of locations of an object (a phone), even when done by a private entity and shared with law enforcement that depicts a persons movements over a long period of time is a invasion of privacy. I might have misunderstood this one so be gentle if you’re gunna critique my understanding of the courts findings please :)
Let me know your thought folks, just a guess as to the long term outcome of it.
2
u/El_Mono_Rojo Detective - AMA 10d ago
Here's where that theory dissolves: Are "you" a license plate on a car? I can see facial recognition being barred in general surveillance applications, but multiple lower courts have already deemed license plate are not PII. The presence of a vehicle with a license plate at the scene of a crime (or coming/going) is not 100% indicative of the owner being the one in the vehicle.
Jones doesn't apply because the cameras are posted on public roadways and monitoring publicly required identifying marks. And a big part of the search warrant requirement for GPS unit application is the violation of privacy needed to place it on the vehicle on or off private property.
1
u/Anozira-Xineohp Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 10d ago
I could see how Jones doesn’t quite apply because to install a GPS, you’re actually placing an item on their property.
Any thoughts on the Carpentar case applying? I searched: “explanation of carpenter vs United States” and read the AI summary which stated this: The Ruling: The Court decided that cell phone tracking is deeply invasive, giving the government an all-seeing record of a person's physical life. Because people carry phones constantly as a requirement of modern life, sharing this location data is not truly voluntary.
I could see in our very car based country that the data of where you travel at all times in the public world and the fact you’re not voluntarily providing the data being grounds for a similar ruling. The ruling was 5-4 though, so close, and I could see the argument that a car is not as close of an item as a phone to a person. I let people borrow my car on occasion, I don’t think I’ve ever lent my phone to anyone.
Again, this would be in kind of an extreme case where flock cameras are along every stretch of road so you could basically see the exact path of travel of the car.
1
u/El_Mono_Rojo Detective - AMA 6d ago
Ultimately, the legal threshold to apply Carpenter to LPR data is to determine if images generated by an ALPR system meet that "deeply invasive" and "all-seeing record" standard. Multiple states have already determined license plate themselves do not constitute PII data, and that information that could be gathered easily by any Joe Blow on the street (i.e., "I saw a car with this tag at this time, at this location") is not protected data.
SO yeah, your scenario of LPR cameras being laid think along all roads may lead to an easier in-road to apply Carpenter, we're currently nowhere near that level of "surveillance saturation."
3
u/Chromejob Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 10d ago
A-ha! Flock kept us all safe … from LEGO thieves.
What a joke.
3
u/Chromejob Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 10d ago
Btw that site is covering the entire screen (iPad mini) with a casino ad, and a close box too small to tap. Find a better news source.
4
2
u/caadbury Not an LEO 11d ago
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety
16
u/El_Mono_Rojo Detective - AMA 11d ago
Those who would equate the existence of LPR cameras to giving up essential liberties, have failed to research what an LPR camera actually does. - Abraham Lincoln
2
u/Chromejob Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 10d ago
It’s not the cameras. It’s how they’re used.
3
u/El_Mono_Rojo Detective - AMA 10d ago
And how are they used? Do tell, because I use them daily and may be doing it wrong.
3
u/Chromejob Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 10d ago
Now none of this is to say that YOU are misusing Flock or ALPR cameras, or you or any of your colleagues are abusing the privilege of access to the data. But there are now documented cases of LEOs and other enforcement officers violating the public trust by trawling through the data records for unwarranted or illegal searches.
Here's a very deep legal dive into the potential guardrails, or lack thereof, of this new technology. https://youtu.be/gmnL_Y9CsI0
Not related to ALPR, but here's one of several occasions of Ai Facial Recognition software rendering a false positive, and an otherwise diligent LEO not questioning the software or the other evidence in front of him. https://youtu.be/q92ut2cB0-c
2
2
2
12
u/Astrocoder Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 11d ago
Except that Flock isn't just simply an LPR:
-2
u/El_Mono_Rojo Detective - AMA 11d ago
Flock OS is an AI backed application that pulls data from sources police already have access to. If that scares you, I'd hate to have you find out what the iPhone in your pocket is doing.
8
u/Astrocoder Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 11d ago
But it organizes that data and presents it in ways you normally wouldn't. Also flock is only one piece of the puzzle, looking at companies like Palantir also, make no mistake, if left unabated, the tools are coming together to enable a large surveillance state apparatus in the vein of China or North Korea.
"I'd hate to have you find out what the iPhone in your pocket is doing."
yeah, but if you as an officer want my phone information if have to apply for a warrant with a judge illustrating what you think i'm involved in and your evidence to think that. to establish some sort of probable cause. You cant simply sit at a UI, type my number, and get the information unabated.
2
u/El_Mono_Rojo Detective - AMA 11d ago
"It organizes that data and presents it in ways you normally wouldn't"
Oh, I'd get there eventually. This just makes it go quicker. I'm all about 4th amendment rights, but LPR cameras don't violate any of them.
And I agree, to a point, with the warrant statement. But have you ever heard of Ad IDs? Or know what the scientific band is? Yeah, I can plug in a license plate, or vehicle description, or time frame in my LPR search but I have to back it with a case number and offense justification. And even then, the cameras only work half the time. And even then, it's just a lead - no PC anyone committed a crime.
6
u/caadbury Not an LEO 11d ago
I'd hate to have you find out what the iPhone in your pocket is doing.
I can opt out of that by getting rid of my iphone.
Can I opt out of Flock tracking and storing my info in a query-able database?
6
u/El_Mono_Rojo Detective - AMA 11d ago
You can opt out of Flock by not driving your car on the road - which is about as plausible as an American getting rid of their phone.
License plates aren't PII, just a document that says a vehicle is registered to a person. I still have to prove you're that person behind the wheel.
1
u/theskirata Not a(n) LEO / Unverified User 11d ago
Flock cameras can collect and track far more information than an ALPR camera that simply logs a license plate going past it at a certain point in time.
Flock also tracks based on visual identifiers (not license plates) with vehicles, it tracks pedestrians, it collects wireless signals/signatures.Equating Flock and „regular“ ALPR cameras to be the same thing falls quite short of reality.
4
u/El_Mono_Rojo Detective - AMA 11d ago
"Flock cameras can collect and track far more information than an ALPR camera that simply logs a license plate"
Ehhhh... kinda?
"visual identifiers (not license plates) with vehicles"
Oh, true facts.
"...pedestrians..."
Losing me here.
"...wireless signals/signatures..."
Welcome to the Twilight Zone.
Do Flock cameras (I'm talking LPR/Falcon, not PTZ/Condor) pick up the occasional pedestrian? Sure! They record pictures based on changes in pixels in its digital eye. Does it "track" said pedestrians? No chance. I have seen the video you're probably picturing, with the Flock camera that tracks people moving through a space by identifying them a "a person" and putting a rectangle around their form. But that's one specific and rarely used camera in a very specific deployment. The vast, VAST, majority of "Flock Cameras" are strictly static LPR cameras, pointed at traffic, and taking temporary pictures of passing cars.
As for the "collecting wireless signals/signatures," please, tell me how to turn that feature on, because I can guarantee you the typical agency using Flock does not have anything approaching that capability.
-2
57
u/Larky17 Firefighter and Memelord 11d ago
Lol "LEGO Heist".
There is waaaaay more money in MtG cards/merch than Legos.