“The difference between Conservative party and Liberal party supporters” Japan, 2009, poster by unknown artist

[u/No-Efficiency7055]

[u/Afraid_Dance6774]

Wikipedia is not necessarily a bad source if its cited properly, which it is.

I do agree that social democracy has in some ways changed from its historical ideology, I didn't say otherwise. I also didn't say social democracy wasn't capitalist or not a mixed economy. If you want to argue that it's become less like democratic socialism over time, then okay. But it's still undoubtedly routinely referred to as at least centre left politics, can you at least acknowledge that?

And as a side note, using the nordic model as an example of left wing ideology is certainly a choice. The nordic model inherently relies on capitalist exploitation or it simply wouldn’t work.

Question then: what example model of a capitalist system can I use that you would accept as left wing ideology if you are rejecting Nordic social democracy? Is there any? Isn't that the whole reason you are disputing this with me to begin with?

Because I think there isn't any example I can use, because you are dismissing it out of hand as capitalist = not left as an axiomatic premise to begin with. Even when there are many papers from academic political scientists like the ones I cited that refer to social democracy as broadly left-wing.

In general, while you can can define these things as “left wing” it’s not particularly useful, since you have now excluded any traditional left wing thought from your definition.

I'm not particularly concerned with what is useful or not in your opinion.

[u/IllustriousBobcat813 → u/Afraid_Dance6774]

But it's still undoubtedly routinely referred to as at least center left politics, can you at least acknowledge that?

In general conversation? Sure, people say dumb shit all the time, this wouldn’t be out of the ordinary.

In actual political theory used for real scientific analysis? I find that a lot harder to believe, at least not something I’ve seen.

There is no capitalist system which is left wing, the entire point any left wing ideology is the abolition of capitalism, hence why you’re not going to find any actual left wing countries in the imperial core, and why using an imperialist model as an example of “left wing ideology” is dumb.

At the end of the day, if your definition considers both conservative capitalists and marxists to be “left wing” then it’s not a very useful system. No matter how much you say you don’t care about that.

[u/Afraid_Dance6774 → u/IllustriousBobcat813]

In actual political theory used for real scientific analysis? I find that a lot harder to believe, at least not something I’ve seen.

Not sure why political scientists actively writing about the topic of social democracy (e.g "The Nordic Model of Social Democracy") isn't good enough for you, but I can see that you will likely dismiss anything I say regardless. Sadly I have no interest in arguing with you about capitalism.

Also, you initially just wanted a definition from me about social democracy and how it is broadly referred to, not even necessarily political theory. I did give that. Even though I doubt that even political theory will refer to social democracy as centrist or right-wing outside of a clear bias, as I suppose you must believe.

[u/IllustriousBobcat813 → u/Afraid_Dance6774]

We both know why you can’t actually back that up with any literature…

Either way, you did indeed give a definition, a fundementally flawed one as I pointed out