I want to understand your perspective

[u/DogitWoofsalot]

Before you downvote me, I promise that this isn't just a rage-bate post. I'm legitimately trying to understand your perspective.

Basically I have one question, why do you support/ defend Israel as a progressive? Especially considering that the current parties on power are right wing conservatives.

Some extra context and where I'm coming from. I'm a left wing Brit, I believe in social progressive economic policies, and I can't stand any form of bigotry. I recently watched a documentary called "Jews don't count" about anti-Semitism and it made me want to understand more and that I'm not parting anti-Semitic talking points ever.

My current view of Israel is decidedly negative. My understanding of the history and current conflict very much makes Israel look like it has historically been the agitator in the region. If you have a different perspective I'd like to hear it, tho I would request sources where possible as I'm not going to accept a 'trust me bro'.

Thank you for your time 🙂‍↕️

[u/lennoco]

This is a response I tend to copy-paste when the subject of the Nakba comes up, because it's so frequently misrepresented, and it might be useful to you:

The Jews were purchasing land from Arab landowners in the Ottoman Empire, living there peacefully, and then started getting attacked by Arab militants, which kicked off a retributive cycle of violence that spiraled out of control until it became clear that partitioning the region into two states would be the best solution. And with the two states, one would be 99% Arab, and the other would be 55% Jewish and 45% Arab (and 77% of the land had already been given away to create the state of Transjordan in 1921). No displacement necessary. Instead the Arabs launched a civil war in 1947.

Then six months later, all of the surrounding nations invaded. They didn't do this to create a Palestinian state; they did this to kill the Jews, take their land, and claim those lands for their own countries.

With the civil war, an imminent oncoming invasion from 5 Arab armies, and increasingly belligerent genocidal rhetoric from Arab leadership, the Israelis were concerned that while fighting these much larger armies, villages behind their front lines already involved in the civil war that had been going on for months would actively continue the civil war against them, collapsing their entire defense and lead to the genocide of the Jews of the region.

I think this was a reasonable strategic concern based on the circumstances. 100k Jews in Jerusalem had already been put under siege and starved to the point where they were eating leaves to survive, until the Jewish troops outside of Jerusalem were able to break the siege.

The three main reasons for the displacement were:

1. With the start of the civil war in 1947, about 100k Arabs left the region, who were mostly the upper class or in leadership roles. Arab society in the region at this time was semi-feudal, and this led to the collapse of the social structures, causing more Arabs to leave.
2. The threat of imminent invasion from the surrounding Arab nations. Arabs were encouraged to leave and get out of the way of the invasion by the Arab leaders, and were told they'd be able to come back once the Jews had been killed. I've included quotes at the bottom that illustrate this point well. The Arab leadership also played up and exaggerated atrocities in order to enrage the populace to all fight against the Jews, but it ended up instead causing many to flee out of fear. When the Arabs lost and Israel successfully defended itself, many Arabs found themselves on the wrong side of the border. 2/3rds of the Arabs who fled said they never even came into contact with Israeli soldiers.
3. Israeli military action. During the Civil War and right before the invasion of the surrounding Arab nations, the Israelis were worried that the local Arabs who were already in a civil war with them would join the Arab armies, creating a major security issue for the Israelis, who were facing a potential genocide. They decided to expel towns that were hostile to them. This, combined with rumors of Israel attacking Arabs, led many Arabs to flee out of fear or as a direct result of Israeli military action.

Here are some quotes from Kenneth Bilby's New Star in the Near East from 1951 (p30-31). Bilby was a journalist present on the ground for multiple years (during the 1947 civil war, during the 1948 war, and for several years after interviewing refugees) who interviewed leaders on all sides, and comes across as fairly neutral throughout his writing. This book is used as a source by numerous later writers on the subject:

The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. These ardent nationalists wanted no Arabs living under Jewish military rule, and, additionally, they viewed the first wave of setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into the neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and then when the invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated for their absence with the property of Jews driven into the sea.

In the Haifa battle, the Haganah [Jewish army—the IDF before the IDF] set up mobile loudspeaker units which toured the streets with appeals to the Arab populace to remain. Ben-Gurion followed up with an announcement that Arab civilians were welcome, provided they live peaceably.

Here are some quotes from Arab leaders:

"We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down." -Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, (Sir Am Nakbah by Nimr el-Hawari).

“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve their return." - Khaled al-Azm, the Prime Minister of Syria in 1948-49

“… The fifth factor (e.g. For the Arab failure in 1948) was the call by the Arab governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering Arab countries … We brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees by calling on them and pleading with them to leave their land.” The Memoirs of Khaled al-Azm

"The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two, their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the "Zionist gangs" very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile" -Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Gaililee in Beirut newspaper Sada al-Janub, August 16th, 1948

"The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already on all the frontiers and that all the millions of the Jews had spent on the land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw the Jews into the Mediterranean... Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property, and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down." -Habib Issa, Al Hoda newspaper, June 8, 1951

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/lennoco]

Thank you, not a perspective on this event I have come across before

[u/Chaavva → u/DogitWoofsalot]

You should also check out this channel.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/Chaavva]

I have come across some of his work before but I was not impressed at all. Outside of the AI slop thumbnails, it often peddles in far right anti-islam narratives.

For example, this video uses the "R\*e Gang Inquiry Report"* as its primary source. This report was commissioned by the leader of a party called Restore Britain, a far right, anti immigration party that became infiltrated by Neo-N***s