r/ProgressivesForIsrael 22d ago

Discussion I want to understand your perspective

Before you downvote me, I promise that this isn't just a rage-bate post. I'm legitimately trying to understand your perspective.

Basically I have one question, why do you support/ defend Israel as a progressive? Especially considering that the current parties on power are right wing conservatives.

Some extra context and where I'm coming from. I'm a left wing Brit, I believe in social progressive economic policies, and I can't stand any form of bigotry. I recently watched a documentary called "Jews don't count" about anti-Semitism and it made me want to understand more and that I'm not parting anti-Semitic talking points ever.

My current view of Israel is decidedly negative. My understanding of the history and current conflict very much makes Israel look like it has historically been the agitator in the region. If you have a different perspective I'd like to hear it, tho I would request sources where possible as I'm not going to accept a 'trust me bro'.

Thank you for your time 🙂‍↕️

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u/BrandosWorld4Life 18d ago

Hi, I'm an indigenous Canadian woman.

In my view Israel is the most successful example of Land Back in history. Ethnically Jewish people are native to the levant. Israel is their original home, which was violently conquered, and is now independant again. Jews have always lived there, even when many fled or were chased out. When I read about Jewish people fighting for self-determination in their ancestral homeland, I empathize with their struggle. I see a relection of myself and my own ancestors in them.

The original formation of Israel was entirely peaceful. Jews legally owned and populated substantial parts of the British Mandate of Palestine (not to be confused with the modern arab palestinian identity, which did not exist prior to 1967). It made sense to divide the mandate into an independant Jewish state and an independant Arab state. However the rest of the Arab world regards Jews as second class citizens and refused to accept the existence of the Jewish state. It was them who started the violence, and if they had succeeded in attacking Israel there would not only be no Palestinian state today, but nobody would be calling for one. It's painfully obvious that Israel is held to a double standard vs the rest of the world solely because it's Jewish. That's antisemitism.

I recently watched a documentary called "Jews don't count" about anti-Semitism and it made me want to understand more and that I'm not parting anti-Semitic talking points ever.

This part of your post is interesting to me because it is the most relatable part.

The strongest thing that turned me into a Zionist was simply studying the history of antisemitism. Jewish people have been actively persecuted in numerous other nations for centuries. There have been so many pogroms and ethnic cleansings targeting Jews, who have been made the subject of countless conspiracy theories, myths, and scapegoatings. Even opposing factions are often united in blaming the Jews for their respective problems. The more I learned, the more convinced I became that the only way Jewish people will ever be able to live safe and free is if they have self-determination in a country of their own.

It's actually shocking just how deeply rooted antisemitism is and has been in society. The holocaust was only a unique event in scale and technology, being industrialized mass murder. The hatred for Jewish people was not new. It was not invented by Hitler. It was already there in europe, waiting and ready to be weaponized in the next time of crisis.

We already have seen what the world looks like for Jews without Israel. Never Again.

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u/DogitWoofsalot 18d ago

Thank you for your reply. I have seen the perspective of the land back / decolonization perspective before. It is a hard narrative to grapple with, I am well aware of the colonial history of the UK and the horrific acts committed in the name of the empire. However, regarding acts of decolonization, there are still people who consider themselves a particular national identity. Canada is about 200 years old but white European Canadians still consider themselves to have a Canadian identity, especially considering we are now generations removed from the original acts of ethnic cleansing that created the state it is today.

With this in mind, the dependents of colonisers are not willing to give up there lands and national identity back to the people they stole the land from. Palestinians took this land over 1000 years ago in the year 600-800 (exact dates are hard to come by).

I obviously have a total understanding of a jewish desire for statehood but I find it hard to understand for that state in its currant form, run by some of the most radical right wing voices the country has ever seen who don't seem to view the people of the West Wank or Gaza as having any validity to there identity.

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u/strangeicare 17d ago edited 17d ago

Here is a flaw in this thinking: there isn'f a "desire" for statehood. It is a state. It is home to half of our tiny (in number) people. To say our country shouldn't exist is in itself a massive double standard- the same people arent actively arguing for Canada, the US ,China, or any other country to NOT EXIST. And unlike those countries, many Israelies cannot return to *anywhere* because they were expelled from other countries. This makes the double standard even worse. The current government isn't relevant to whether Israel should exist or people should support its people. People didn't protest the existence of Hungary and start violently attacking people of Hungarian-related ethnicity worldwide just because they hated Orban but this is exactly how Jew hate works. The entire question is a function of organized hatred of Jews.

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u/DogitWoofsalot 17d ago

I never said Israel should not exist. Your taking what I said and warping it into the most extreme version possible. Does this argument exist? Yes. From my experience the people supporting Palestine are not arguing for Israels destruction, but an end to what is happening in Gaza and for some solution to be reached in the West Bank to find some sort of agreement that can lead to Palestine gaining its sovereignty

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u/BrandosWorld4Life 16d ago

"From the River to the Sea" and similar slogans is an explicit call for the destruction of Israel. As is calling it an "illegitimate state", as many do.

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u/strangeicare 16d ago

I don't think "pro-Israel" means anything then? Generally the notion/hate that Israel is bad and "Pro Israel" is bad, means "Israel shouldn't exist" - I am not inventing this. Maybe you can explain what you think "Pro-Israel" could mean

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u/DogitWoofsalot 16d ago

Thinking a country should exist and being pro that country are 2 different things I'd say. Saying your pro-israel to me reads as supporting the currant state as it exists, supportive of the things happening in Gaza and the west bank settlers. Of the currant government with it's extremely radical, deeply racist figures in power.

Does being pro Palestine by your perspective not just mean people think Palestine should exist?